Airplane deals....Do they exist?

FloridaPilot

FloridaPilot

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It would be pretty cool to have a running thread as a deal analyzer for potential buys. All deals are different and maybe we can all put our heads together and figure out what's a deal and what isn't. This thread everyone can learn something because we all love aviation and we can all contribute somehow. So I will post something below and we can pick it apart like only POA knows how. Note: I don't have any association to any of the posts. Note this is NOT for advertisement purposes this post is just to educate us on what to look out for with specific models.
 
It looks like it COULD be a deal, but it depends on a lot of things in the background. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig :).
 
Well anything on craigslist, aviation related, is probably already sketchy......what does newer gauges mean? From the 1980's?
 
Matt Brasher said:
I just ran across a Bonanza for $6000....although the right wingtip was cut off by another airplane :confused:. Not really a deal, but cheap!

https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/for/6079165325.html
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According to the website the wing got ripped off because of a prop strike. I'm sure the engine needs to be overhauled too just in case. I'm not an expert but I wouldn't touch that one..too much work involved! There are better deals out there!
 
FloridaPilot said:
39K is REALLY cheap for a 210.
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Yes, but the early strut-winged models are much less valuable than the cantilever wing ones. Panel and radios are pretty weak. It does have decent paint and a low time engine and prop. But there is so little info in the ad it is hard to tell much. Is the aircraft in annual? How long ago was the overhaul done and by what shop? How are the compressions and oil consumption? Hopefully it has been in Nevada for most of its life, that would lessen the probability of serious corrosion issues.
 
kayoh190 said:
Pressurized Skymaster for only $60K!

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/19408613/1973-cessna-p337

:)
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Probably the best deal posted this far, though depending on the damage to the bo it might win, but that would require more digging, the 210 has struts so no matter what you do to it it's not a desirable 210 and priced as such.


Of course there are deals out there, there are deals for any market just a matter of looking hard enough, being patient and having the cash on hand for when you find one
 
FloridaPilot said:
According to the website the wing got ripped off because of a prop strike. I'm sure the engine needs to be overhauled too just in case. I'm not an expert but I wouldn't touch that one..too much work involved! There are better deals out there!
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I doubt the prop from the airplane for sale did that damage, it must have been from another airplane.

It does look like it needs a new right wing. I think that is the main spar angled down about 30 degrees in the picture of the damage.
 
The deals are estate sales where they just want to get rid of it. Or a "clearing out". I dunno there are a bunch of old airplanes in hangars with 20 years of dust on them around. Course you have to get them running. There is engine, paint job, glass (plastic actually), upholstry and avionics. You can spend a fortune getting that stuff fixed. The FBO mechanics recently rebuilt a Twin Commache and it looks great. The guy got for like 5k or something ridiculously low but then it had to have just about new everything.
 
Yes. Right after WWII...

I read somewhere that people would buy a B-17 that had all fuel tanks full, just to get the gas, then scrap the plane....
 
Plano Pilot said:
I doubt the prop from the airplane for sale did that damage, it must have been from another airplane.

It does look like it needs a new right wing. I think that is the main spar angled down about 30 degrees in the picture of the damage.
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I was trying to figure out how. Botched late-night parking job?
 
coloradobluesky said:
The deals are estate sales where they just want to get rid of it. Or a "clearing out". I dunno there are a bunch of old airplanes in hangars with 20 years of dust on them around. Course you have to get them running. There is engine, paint job, glass (plastic actually), upholstry and avionics. You can spend a fortune getting that stuff fixed. The FBO mechanics recently rebuilt a Twin Commache and it looks great. The guy got for like 5k or something ridiculously low but then it had to have just about new everything.
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Unless some helpful fellow, and "expert" in aviation, tells the family that the plane is worth $X based on 2007 valuations adjusted for inflation. Of course, it was tied down outside and hasn't flown since 2007 either...
 
edo2000 said:
Yes, but the early strut-winged models are much less valuable than the cantilever wing ones. Panel and radios are pretty weak. It does have decent paint and a low time engine and prop. But there is so little info in the ad it is hard to tell much. Is the aircraft in annual? How long ago was the overhaul done and by what shop? How are the compression and oil consumption? Hopefully it has been in Nevada for most of its life, that would lessen the probability of serious corrosion issues.
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Agreed. Isn't the low time engine and prop the most expensive thing to replace? Why is the strut wing model less desirable, is it because of maintenance issues?
 
paflyer said:
Makes atmospheric pressure, gaur ann teed!
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Yeah, it's a lot of airplane for $60K, but it'd likely eat you out of house and home!
 
Pay up front or pay later. Some of those low advertised prices can be for a handful of reasons. The engine may only have 400 hours, but the overhaul was 30 years ago.

A cheap price gets attention, one is often better off paying extra for quality. The particular deal all depends though.
 
FloridaPilot said:
Agreed. Isn't the low time engine and prop the most expensive thing to replace? Why is the strut wing model less desirable, is it because of maintenance issues?
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It's true that the engine and prop are the most expensive bits, but if they were rebuilt in 1995, the low time doesn't mean much. You just need more info on that. I'm not a 210 expert (I have owned 185's and 206's) but I was always wanting one and have watched the market some. I think the cantilever wing models are significantly faster, and since they are newer, they benefit from the evolutionary improvements in the type. A lot of people like IO-470's, but the few that I owned seemed to need cylinders at almost every annual. I had much better luck with IO-520's. It might just be my luck.
 
FloridaPilot said:
Agreed. Isn't the low time engine and prop the most expensive thing to replace? Why is the strut wing model less desirable, is it because of maintenance issues?
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That early of the 210 (pre-D model) has the combo hydraulic system where the flaps and gear are powered by the same system, plus engine driven hydro pump. Plus leaf spring short legs eating the 5th and sixth seat. Quad whammy. Then there were the gear doors, and the uplocks, and the solenoids, and sequence controllers for such a system. Miles of aging hydro lines and weathered electrical wiring and end points of failure, in a system that doesn't fail to gravity down (like my Arrow for instance). In essence, a hot expensive mess to maintain and operate with the kind of dispatch reliability to own the g-damned thing in the first place, 57 years later. Noooo thanks.

Seriously, I'm a retract owner, but a Cessna retract like the early 210 gives the fixed gear folks on here all the fodder they need to legitimately make the case you're better off going slower if you actually want to spend your money on avgas and hotels at your desired destination, instead of labor, rental cars and hotels NOT part of your destination, just to get your @ss home every time the thing betrays ya off-station. Not hyperbole at all considering you don't buy a 210 to stay in the pattern at the home drone on a saturday afternoon for 40 hours a year.

So now you know why a 1960 210 goes for 40K. It's a twin without the benefit of a second engine. A six seater without the benefit of six seats. A.. I digress.
 
sourdough44 said:
Pay up front or pay later. Some of those low advertised prices can be for a handful of reasons. The engine may only have 400 hours, but the overhaul was 30 years ago.

A cheap price gets attention, one is often better off paying extra for quality. The particular deal all depends though.
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Agreed but every selling situation is different. It all comes down to the seller and why they REALLY want to sell. If they want to see how much money they can get. They are not really ready to sell at all.

edo2000 said:
It's true that the engine and prop are the most expensive bits, but if they were rebuilt in 1995, the low time doesn't mean much. You just need more info on that. I'm not a 210 expert (I have owned 185's and 206's) but I was always wanting one and have watched the market some. I think the cantilever wing models are significantly faster, and since they are newer, they benefit from the evolutionary improvements in the type. A lot of people like IO-470's, but the few that I owned seemed to need cylinders at almost every annual. I had much better luck with IO-520's. It might just be my luck.
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Needing a cylinder or two at every annual? WTF!?! Was the engine leaned properly? I would've swapped maintenance companies just to get a second and third opinion....that is crazy!
 
FloridaPilot said:
Agreed but every selling situation is different. It all comes down to the seller and why they REALLY want to sell. If they want to see how much money they can get. They are not really ready to sell at all.



Needing a cylinder or two at every annual? WTF!?! Was the engine leaned properly? I would've swapped maintenance companies just to get a second and third opinion....that is crazy!
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coloradobluesky said:
The deals are estate sales where they just want to get rid of it.
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Estate sales are hit and miss. Sometimes you can get great deals when those handling the estate are reasonable and genuinely do want to get rid of the airplane.

Other times you get a lot of sentimentality and unrealistic expectations with ridiculously high prices with no budging.
 
Oh, there are legitimate deals to be had. They are far and few between.

But then you run into an overwhelming number of low priced airplanes that really should have been scrapped. But people think is worth a whole lot more than it really is.

I looked at aircraft that was used at flight training aircraft and had hard landings at least twice, once with a prop strike, was about 50% of the airframe life and needed an overhaul, and despite saying they were looking for reasonable offers, they really wanted low hours, single owner pricing.

Then recently, I saw an advertisement for a composite LSA that got worse as I read the advertisement. $25K for a 2007 CTsw... but then I read of the home turbocharging experiment that was "almost sorted out" (eek), the repair to the airframe where the airframe cracked (EEEK!) and no mention that the aircraft had a hard landing and took off the nose gear and likely a prop strike. (YIKES!) Given the money needed to sort out that aircraft (if you had any faith left in it), you'd be better of paying normal prices for a no-questions aircraft.

Best deals (IMO) are the ones that are told to you by friends who know the owner or aircraft. Usually they're not listed on online classifieds, and the owner is more forthcoming to share with you everything about the aircraft, and are willing to work with you and your A&P for pre-buy.
 
FloridaPilot said:
Needing a cylinder or two at every annual? WTF!?! Was the engine leaned properly? I would've swapped maintenance companies just to get a second and third opinion....that is crazy!
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The worst offender was a 1963 C-310 which had mid-time engines when we bought it. So, 12 cylinders instead of six. This was a quite a while ago, and as I said, it wasn't EVERY annual, but replacing a cylinder or two at an annual was a way-too-frequent occurrence. I had better luck with an early C185 with a 470, but I did have to replace a cylinder when we owned that. Historically, I have just had much better luck with IO-520's than 470's (I never owned a turbo'd engine, I'm sure they are worse). A buddy at my current home base has a 61 Bonanza. He had to replace multiple cylinders on that 470, in 2015, mid-time engine. Like I said, it could be just random chance, or, if you want, mine and my buddys' inept engine operation :). I'm sure others have had similar bad luck with naturally aspirated Continental 520's, but they have worked well for me.
 
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edo2000 said:
The worst offender was a 1963 C-310 which had mid-time engines when we bought it. So, 12 cylinders instead of six. This was a quite a while ago, and as I said, it wasn't EVERY annual, but replacing a cylinder or two at an annual was a way-too-frequent occurrence. I had better luck with an early C185 with a 470, but I did have to replace a cylinder when we owned that. Historically, I have just had much better luck with IO-520's than 470's (I never owned a turbo'd engine, I'm sure they are worse). A buddy at my current home base has a 61 Bonanza. He had to replace multiple cylinders on that 470, in 2015, mid-time engine. Like I said, it could be just random chance, or, if you want, mine and my buddys' inept engine operation :). I'm sure others have had similar bad luck with naturally aspirated Continental 520's, but they have worked well for me.
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I can relate...it happens. I purchased two brand new cars in different years and the first one was reliable and I traded it in for the same model a year after and I had problems right away...brand new car. :mad:
 
http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1245486_1979+Turbo+Seneca+II+Must+Sell.html
I keep finding Senecas around the $100K mark..

I know everyone knocks twin engines but in my neck of the woods I would feel better having two donks out there... especially if I ever want to do some mountain and high desert flying. Realistically, if I want my (eventual) plane to be a proper cross country machine that I can trust over water, etc. a twin engine is kind of a *must*

That plane I linked about is $100K, has pretty decent avionics, and seems to be in good shape overall. I know the engines are starting to get up there in time... but they're well before TBO and if I fly 50-100 hrs per yeear I would get several years out of it

Am I missing something?
 
Might not work as well with BasicMed, but if you cross-referenced aircraft owners with their airman record, and came up with a list of aircraft owners who no longer have a medical, you would have a pretty good call list to start working from.

Is there a registry of obituaries? If there is I'm sure a broker has figured it out by now. I know here are lots of investors who buy houses that way. Kinda sad, really.
 
Jumping back to the 210 discussion for a sec... and sorry it's a FaceBook video link...

But here's a decent video of a gear swing on an older one with the gear doors. As you can see, it's just a lot of (kinda useless) crap going on, just to suck the gear up.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1315167271869717

(Video just happens to be from the DynaVibe people, the folks who make one of the dynamic balancer doo-hickus-es... it's apparently their airplane.)
 
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