Airline pilots question

[Tony R]

My 13 year old son has been saying he wants to be an airline pilot for quite some time. I'm finishing up my ppl right now, but no intentions on making a career of it.

This is a question for Airline pilots only.

Would you recommend the Airline pilot lifestyle to your child?

How hard is it on family life?

After you make Captain what is your schedule?

For reference I'm an investment accountant/licensed broker and I routinely work 50+ hours per week so it's not like non pilots work only 40 hours. Before I made it to this current role I worked 60+ per week.

Thanks in advance

Tony

 

[Tarheelpilot]

My 13 year old son has been saying he wants to be an airline pilot for quite some time. I'm finishing up my ppl right now, but no intentions on making a career of it.

This is a question for Airline pilots only.

Would you recommend the Airline pilot lifestyle to your child?

How hard is it on family life?

After you make Captain what is your schedule?

For reference I'm an investment accountant/licensed broker and I routinely work 50+ hours per week so it's not like non pilots work only 40 hours. Before I made it to this current role I worked 60+ per week.

Thanks in advance

Tony

I am neutral in regard to recommending. My kid is 14 and says he wants to be a pilot. He’s taking glider lessons… time will tell if he really does want it as a career. I’m supportive but not overly excited about it around him.

It can be hard on the family at times. It’s manageable if he marries the right person. That’s a much more important decision IMO.
I’m 25 years into both career and marriage. There have been times the family has accommodated the career and career the family. It’s more about the people involved than the job.

Schedule after being a captain? No way to answer that question. When a pilot at a union shop (most airlines are unionized) bids for a schedule they are bidding against the pilots in their bid status. Same seat, airplane and base.

So there is always a captain on the bottom of the list for each airplane in each base. Not a great schedule…

If someone values schedule over pay then chilling in the FO seat and waiting to upgrade is a great strategy to improve QOL.

For reference I’m a junior captain, living in base and have a family. It’s not the worst thing to happen to a person.

 

[Tony R]

My friend is an ER doc and his schedule is rough. His wife is doc too so you are correct about marrying the right person.

 

[texasclouds]

At the major I fly for, we are home 13-15 days a month. Can take off more time if desired. I love my job.

In October, so far, I have been home 20 days. Seven of those home days I was on call, but unused.

But, that said, when you are working you are gone 3-4 days usually. So momma needs to be strong enough to manage the household while you are gone. You will not be there at 5pm every evening after the whistle blows.

There are alot of flying jobs, especially for low time pilots, that have higher requirements of your time, but everyone gravitates to a major airline where the lifestyle is better as well as the pay.

I’ve been flying a total of 6 years now, previously worked in an office. Work would follow you home via emails/texts. At the airline, after we set the parking brake and see everyone off, we go home and no one calls, emails, or texts us that evening. You can’t put a price on that. I just show up to work, do my job, then go home. Zero micromanagement. Except for those crusty capns of course, lol.

 

[jayhawk74]

TonyR
You asked what is the schedule like after a pilot makes Captain it’s the same as a schedule as a First Officer. That’s because what a pilot flies is based on their seniority. A junior First Officer and Captain will be working weekends and holidays, especially on Thanksgiving and Christmas. A senior First Officer and will be able to bid those days off. That’s why some First Officers will delay upgrade in order to have a better quality of life.
Some other things to consider if your son doesn’t live in a domicile he will be spending time commuting which will mean more time away from home. He can reduce that time away from home by living in domicile but there is no guarantee that he can get into the domicile of his choice as that is seniority driven. Also once in a domicile there is no guarantee that he will stay because if another domicile has a reduction in crews he can be bumped from his domicile by a more senior pilot.
Also if your son marries and has children those 3-5 days that he is away his wife will be a single Mom.
Bottom line if a pilot can handle being junior, which sometimes can last years, and marries a strong independent person being an airline pilot is enjoyable and rewarding.
Another option is non airline flying such as fractionals. Working for a Fractional you get every other weekend off and no commuting on you days off. I have done both, while the pay is better at the Major that I flew for the quality of life is better at the Fractional especially for a junior pilot

 

[TCABM]

…This is a question for Airline pilots only.

I’m not an airline pilot, nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn last night, but I spent a career in the military that ended in 2016 and raised two kids who are 29 and 30.

…This is a question for Airline pilots only.

Would you recommend the Airline pilot lifestyle to your child?

My kids were starting their teenage years in 2007-2008 timeframe. We weren’t recommending ANY career to either one of them at that age. We weren’t even discussing colleges at that point.

What is your perception of what the airline pilot lifestyle is?

…After you make Captain what is your schedule?

Who can predict the future in a career field 20 years from now? Here’s what I can tell you about flying professionally from my military experience.

When you’re being paid to fly, your schedule is variable and depends on a lot of factors. You have to show up on time, wherever that is, whenever that is. Not much different than most other careers.

…For reference I'm an investment accountant/licensed broker and I routinely work 50+ hours per week so it's not like non pilots work only 40 hours. Before I made it to this current role I worked 60+ per week.
Tony

That’s nice; what makes you think airline pilot schedule resemble anything in the corporate world? Airlines run a 24/7 regional/national/international transportation business.

 

[kayoh190]

It's really too early and there are too many variables to know what your kid's home life will be a decade+ from now. And it'll change with time depending on seniority, the particular job, and even his equipment/base and whether he commutes.

Others have given good advice, but I'll throw in a data point too. Over my aviation career (14 at the airlines), the issue hasn't been how much I've been away, but the fact that when I'm gone, I'm gone. So as others said, you have to have a partner that's independent enough to be okay with that. My wife has only known me as a pilot, so she knew the deal when we met, and we've settled into a comfortable groove that works well for the family:

She's in the medical industry and works M-F, leaving the house around 7am and gets home at 6pm (occasionally a bit later if she gets held up at the hospital). I bid my month to leave around bedtime on Sunday and return by dinnertime on Tuesday. If I want to make more money I'll fly longer trips that get back early Wednesday (but I will need to sleep until noon to recover!). Or mix and match, but generally I'll fly each week. I have a four year old daughter that goes to school from 9am-1pm M-F, and we have a nanny that holds down the fort when I'm gone. She also cleans the house and does laundry, etc while my daughter is at school, so that helps.

So from my daughter's perspective she loses me on Monday and most of Tuesday, sometimes all of Tuesday. But when she's not in school she gets 100% of me Wednesday-Sunday, with my wife joining in for bedtime and the weekend. My daughter's time at school gives me time for myself, to work on the honey-do list, etc. The routine seems to work well for us, and I certainly spend more time with my daughter than my wife, who has a more typical M-F job. On the flip side there are generally 8 nights per month where I'm not climbing into my own bed at night, and that sucks. And for some reason things only tend to break on the house, the car breaks down, or the dog starts puking on the rug when I'm 5000nm from home.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

There are alot of flying jobs, especially for low time pilots, that have higher requirements of your time, but everyone gravitates to a major airline where the lifestyle is better as well as the pay.

Um... What???

There are plenty of people who stick with the corporate flying world, and many of those jobs have a better lifestyle. Airline pay is better, but corporate pay allows for a very comfortable life as well.

@Tony R Have your son look into flying jobs other than the airlines too if lifestyle is a concern. While there are plenty of lower-paying jobs meant for lower-time pilots to build time and move on like @texasclouds said, aviation is full of a variety of opportunities, many of which are relatively unknown to most people. Most people encounter airlines at some point, but people often don't think about corporate flying, and very few think about things like aerial firefighting, medical transport, and other "destination" jobs in the aviation industry. He may find that something else interests him even more than the airlines.

 

[Plano Pilot]

When I was growing up my dad flew for Continental and his best friend flew Corporate. I am close to Retirment now and did what Uncle Ray did and flew Corporate, it has worked out great.

Worst thing growing up while dad flew for the airlines. Was when mom's dad died, I had to tell her. This was before cell phones and dad had just started a multiday trip. Mom was at the Texas State Fair and my relatives informed my school; I was 17.

The nice thing about growing up with dad as an airline pilot was that we several nice trips overseas on the passes.

 

[EvilEagle]

If he goes for an airline career he won't know if it was the right call till he retires. It's a fickle thing and timing is everything. I'm a fairly senior FO and I average <8 days of work per month; life is pretty good. I would be more senior as a narrow body captain but their schedule (even at high seniority) sucks IMO. Good advice here so far.

 

[35 AoA]

Some times suck, and some are better. Everything gets better with seniority. Where I'm at right now at my major/legacy, I can pretty consistently get a schedule that is about 10-12 days of work/month. I'm still a fairly junior FO, in the bottom 50% at my base (though in the 60%'s at the moment). It isn't bad at all. My wife/family is used to me being in the military, so being gone for a couple nights isn't super hard for them. It is also pretty easy to get say the last 10 days off of one month, followed by the first 10-15 days off the following month. Boom, suddenly you have 2-3 weeks off in a row.

But it absolutely isn't for everyone. It isn't really particularly interesting flying most of the time, so you have to be able to find enjoyment in other aspects (travel, some of the people, destinations, etc). Being gone sucks for some families. A friend of mine from the Navy had a UAL CA dad growing up, and she said that is the entire reason she never wants to fly for the airlines, it was that sucky as a kid. Hopefully my kids won't say the same here in another 10-15 years. I will say that it is hard to beat the work/pay ratio anywhere else. Not a lot of places paying $300-500k+ to work 10 or even less days a month.

EvilEagle also brings up a great point. Timing is huge, and he won't know that until he hangs the hat up the last time in decades from now. Many of us, myself included, have been fortunate enough to enter this industry at a really unprecedented time in terms of opportunities, hiring, pay, etc. One day that pendulum will swing back, and there will be harder times that guys like me haven't yet experienced (but just ask the guys trying to get in during the 2000-2010 timeframe). It's great unless it isn't. There are lots of stories in the last 20 years alone that are laced with years of misery, bad luck/timing, and furloughs/bankruptcy/liquidation. The unfortunate aspect of this industry is that you are effectively forced to eventually pick your horse. If you bet on the wrong horse, you are out of a job, and start back off at square one of bottom seniority if you are lucky enough to get hired somewhere else.

 

[catmandu]

Good points all around. I have seen both sides.

I always wanted to follow Dad into Naval Aviation. My parents encouraged but never pushed me. I took lessons from 16-20 but never consistently enough to get my PPL. I was commissioned into the Navy via NROTC but was told to go drive boats. Later, through a little bit of work and a lot of dumb luck, I got to wear Wings of Gold flying pointy-nosed airplanes, and it was great. But I left all that so that our kids could have a parent at home. Best decision we ever made.

After 32 years dealing with the airline lifestyle (m’lady with a major), I would say the effect on the family is more about the family than the career. I was more than happy to be a stay at home, part time single parent, and the kids were just fine with Mom occasionally missing an event or two (we did hoodwink them when they were young and unaware, with Santa showing up anywhere from 23-26 December ). And unlike some, we embraced the non-revenue travel privileges: the kids appreciated having more continents visited under their belts than some schoolmates had states.

They both saw Mom had a pretty good gig, even though she had less than spectacular cyclical timing (furlough, bankruptcy, 22 years to make Captain, etc.) and they both dabbled with flight training. But ultimately, they found other highly successful careers. So I would say encourage and share flying with your son, but don’t focus on the objective of a career in aviation, and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[texasclouds]

When you climb in the cockpit, do you get all excited? Is the Top Gun song playing in your head? Do you want to learn more about the aircraft you are flying? Are you always striving for that perfect flight? Do you go to aviation museums in your free time? Look at planes on Barnstormers? What’s your captain upgrade dream plane? Fly hard, doors will open for you. Be patient with the process.

 

[Brad W]

How often does it work out in the airlines that consecutive work days have you home in your own bed as opposed to a hotel in some other city?

 

[EvilEagle]

How often does it work out in the airlines that consecutive work days have you home in your own bed as opposed to a hotel in some other city?

Way too many variables to give one answer. Airline, living in base, seniority in seat, bidding strategy, airline manning, time of year, etc - all those will have massive effect on how that question is answered.

At Delta, some of the narrow body guys have a lot of single day trips (717's probably the most) and the really senior guys scoop up those trips so they can be home every night. That will also necessitate them being gone more days. Depending on the family, having someone home 24/7 for 21 days a month may be better than having someone home from 8pm-6am 17 days a month and 24/7 for 13.

 

[kayoh190]

One thing that makes this question harder to answer is that the definition of a 'good lifestyle' changes with time. That's why I tend to be more bullish about this job when it comes to younger aspiring pilots - the BS you endure as a junior pilot is a lot more palatable when you don't have a wife and kids at home.

 

[kayoh190]

At Delta, some of the narrow body guys have a lot of single day trips (717's probably the most) and the really senior guys scoop up those trips so they can be home every night. That will also necessitate them being gone more days. Depending on the family, having someone home 24/7 for 21 days a month may be better than having someone home from 8pm-6am 17 days a month and 24/7 for 13.

I flew turns for a couple of months as an FO on the 737 and decided I didn't like it. It *was* cool to be in my own bed every night, but as you mentioned it resulted in less overall quality time with my family, and the additional back and forth to the airport was a PITA.

 

[Zeldman]

A friend told me the worst part of airline life was when his wife was driving him to the airport. As soon as the kids (under 6 years old) figured out they were going to the airport, they would start crying. He would have to get out of the car and leave with the kids still crying.

 

[Brad W]

the BS you endure as a junior pilot is a lot more palatable when you don't have a wife and kids at home.

I'm not an airline pilot...but as an airline passenger, I agree. I used to travel for work a lot. Sometimes trips of just a few days, sometimes trips of a week, two, or even more. Sometimes I'd pack for three days and end up being gone for two or three weeks. I was young and single. It was sort of fun for a while.... It was an adventure, I was learning, I has the chance to go to some interesting places sometimes (although most were places were not all that nice or interesting). I thought at the time that the sacrifice was helping my career.

but after a while it used to burn my craw when I'd hear the older guys dismiss the sacrifice I was making as "palatable because I was single" and many variations on that theme. I came to realize that if I ever wanted to not be single anymore... or even to just date someone...that a more predictable schedule was necessary. I had came to realize that not many folks appreciated or even knew the extent of the sacrifices that I was making. The managers didn't really seem to know how long and how hard I was working. I traveled like that for a few different companies, so I can say with certainty that this lack of awareness wasn't just an isolated thing.

From what I can tell by reading here, but also I have known a few professional pilots, is that the majority of the cases for pilots are a burden similar to what I did in some ways, but their situations are also much better in many ways. Generally more predictable schedules and when they are home they are home and are not working. They generally have significantly more time off and at home (days per month), and I'd imagine that more often than not when on layovers they aren't in places like the little papermill towns I used to travel to, but instead places with decent enough restaurants and more redeeming things to see and do. Not always I know, but still....

I transitioned to a 100% desk job nearly two decades ago now, and I have really appreciated being home every night to tuck the kids in. As my kids are older though I do find myself missing the travel once in a long while...and the biggest thing that is weighing on my soul is the lack of time off. I get a few weeks vacation a year, and it's frowned on to take more than 1 week or so in one slug of time off. Otherwise, I'm only off weekends and some holidays (but not every bank or federal holiday since it's a private company)

One other comment about the airline pilot's days of work per month. After I had traveled a while, and especially when I was in those not-so-nice and not-so-interesting small papermill towns... I used to look at the time as being nearly 24hrs a day while I was on the road as work. Maybe not the sleeping time, but every other hour for sure. I wasn't where I wanted to be, I wasn't able to do what I wanted to do, etc... So when a pilot says they are home for 15 days a month, that means they are on the "road" for 15 days. Ignoring the sleep time, that means that are on the hook for the company 240 hours that month...maybe less than that when they bid layovers in cities where they want to be and can go do things that they want to do...but still, it's a lot.

 

[EvilEagle]

A friend told me the worst part of airline life was when his wife was driving him to the airport. As soon as the kids (under 6 years old) figured out they were going to the airport, they would start crying. He would have to get out of the car and leave with the kids still crying.

That would last exactly one time for me; after that I'd be driving myself, taking a taxi or walking. No reason to put the family through that all the time. ugh

 

[kayoh190]

A friend told me the worst part of airline life was when his wife was driving him to the airport. As soon as the kids (under 6 years old) figured out they were going to the airport, they would start crying. He would have to get out of the car and leave with the kids still crying.

These kinds of stories always seem to start with: "I have an airline pilot friend that says..."

I have a four year old at home and don't have that issue at all. She just gives me a kiss and tells me to get her a present while I'm gone. She gets a lot of Daddy time - I make her breakfast and do the school drop and pickup three times per week. Since I handle the household chores while she's in school, she gets 100% of me when she's home. No sharing me with the phone, computer, or any of that crap. Just her and me. So yeah, I'm never happy to be away from my family while on the road, but I also don't think my kid's hurting too much because of it.

 

[Doc Holliday]

These kinds of stories always seem to start with: "I have an airline pilot friend that says..."

That's gonna leave a mark.............

 

[kayoh190]

I used to look at the time as being nearly 24hrs a day while I was on the road as work. Maybe not the sleeping time, but every other hour for sure. I wasn't where I wanted to be, I wasn't able to do what I wanted to do, etc... So when a pilot says they are home for 15 days a month, that means they are on the "road" for 15 days. Ignoring the sleep time, that means that are on the hook for the company 240 hours that month...maybe less than that when they bid layovers in cities where they want to be and can go do things that they want to do...but still, it's a lot.

I absolutely see my time away as work too. I enjoy my overnights, but it's still time away from the family. At my company they call it TAFB, or Time Away From Base. So my strategy was to always bid trips that were as efficient as possible - meaning I want to earn the maximum amount of money for a given TAFB. That's why you see so many widebody first officers that have the seniority to be senior captains in a narrowbody airplane - the international flying tends to allow less TAFB for a given amount of credit, even if the hourly rate for narrowbody captain is higher. In my case, I was averaging about 240 hours of TAFB on the 737, and I'm down under 200 on the 777. There is a tradeoff though, and it's that I'm doing more flying at night, and that's been tougher. It's been manageable and I've found it to be an acceptable tradeoff for more time at home (there are other advantage too), but some guys can't handle the long haul stuff for that reason. Check with me again in a couple of decades - if I look like the Cryptkeeper from Tales from the Crypt, I should have stayed domestic.

 

[TCABM]

That would last exactly one time for me; after that I'd be driving myself, taking a taxi or walking. No reason to put the family through that all the time. ugh

Yep. Can’t recall the number of times I got dropped off to deploy and then had a slip in the schedule.

Exactly once did we do the “come pick me up and we try again tomorrow.” Every time after that, once I was dropped off the contract was next contact would be when I arrive in theater.

Too tough on everyone else.

ETA: the emotional baggage for the family between deploying to a combat zone and leaving for a TDY/trip are significant.

 

[kayoh190]

That's gonna leave a mark.............

I didn't mean to be a DB, but I tend to push back against the 'my kids must never see me' trope. Not to discount Zeldman's friends' story, but I think such an anecdote paints an unfair picture of the typical airline pilot reality at home. This industry definitely has its share of pollyannas, but I've encountered a lot of FUD over the years as well.

 

[Groundpounder]

Be sure if they are going to pursue a career as a pilot, they are doing it because they like flying, and not for the promise of a big paycheck and/or a cushy schedule. The music could stop at any point, and they could end up flying clapped out Beech 99's in South Dakota for $40k a year with no end in sight.

 

[EvilEagle]

Yep. Can’t recall the number of times I got dropped off to deploy and then had a slip in the schedule.

Exactly once did we do the “come pick me up and we try again tomorrow.” Every time after that, once I was dropped off the contract was next contact would be when I arrive in theater.

Too tough on everyone else.

ETA: the emotional baggage for the family between deploying to a combat zone and leaving for a TDY/trip are significant.

Yep, for deployments especially it's one and done - and it's at home.

 

[jordane93]

Grew up in an airline family. Honestly, I didn’t think anything was different because the norm was just my dad leaving for a few days at a time. He stayed a senior FO and rarely missed birthdays, sporting events, concerts, etc. Timing in everything. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. I’m almost a decade into my flying career and while it’s definitely easier if you’re single with no kids, it’s doable with kids with the right spouse and situation. I have a 14 month old and I bid min credit and get about 18 days off per month.

 

[eman1200]

I could’a gotten away with so much more as a kid if my dad was always on the road. Er, in the air.

 

[Plano Pilot]

During my senior prom mom went with dad on a trip. Big party at our house that night, around 100 kids. Woke up the next morning to find a naked friend floating in the pool with his arm around the keg. Cleaned things up and parents never knew. Can't believe the neighbors did not call the police, cars were parked everywhere and music was loud.

 

[Kent Wien]

Coming up on 35 years of airline flying and I just couldn’t imagine a 9 to 5 job. Even though my timing wasn’t great (last pilot hired at the end of what was the longest hiring spree for the airline to that point) I still love the job.