Aircraft Upgrade and First Post

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spcalan1

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SpcAlan1
Hello everyone..

Bio :
150TT
90PIC
50 PIC XC
Night : minimum
Non-IFR Rated
Non HP, nor Complex Rated

I have been flying for 2 years and jumped into aviation.
I rented from the flight school until I completed my PPL, then renting at $225/hour became absurd.

I joined the Civil Air Patrol and now fly their 1980 C-172 for $38/hour plus fuel.
The CAP requires an annual flight review and 1 hour ground session. If anything.. I am good at flight reviews.

I would say I am an ultra-conservative pilot..
- I have only flown 'on top' of the clouds 2x... with one-time being yesterday.
- Longest flight - 6 hours with another pilot
- Longest solo flight - 3.2 hours ( yesterday )

Here is what I am looking at :

1. Continue to fly with CAP. Sometimes problems with plane availability, but 80% OK.
2. 1970 Piper Cherokee 140 ( upgraded to 160 ), Garmin 430, IFR certified - $25,000 - outright.....
3. 1958 Piper Comanche 250. IFR, No certified GPS, retractable gear.. on home field. 1/4 share.. $7,000, $55/month for hangar, $10/hour, and own insurance.
4. 1980 Piper Arrow, Garmin 530/430 combo, IFR, $6,000 for 1/8th share, $150/month, and $25/hour.. but based at KPDK ( 1 hour away )...

Goals :
IFR rating in 1 year
Flying friends and family

Options :
1. I can do the IFR training in the CAP plane and flight review... very low cost.
2. The Piper 160 seems like a great deal.. but only 750 useful load ? That becomes a 2-person airplane with full tanks... but would be an ideal 2-person airplane, and great IFR platform to train in... But.. I know ZERO about airplane ownership....
3. The Comanche 250 is HP and Complex ( neither I have ) and I flew in it today.. it is a rocket ship compared to the 172's.. I felt that this airplane was 'too much' for me.. but I am sure with enough hours.. I would be comfortable as the 172's... One of the owners has 1600 hours, 400 in this airplane, and one other partner is a AP..
4. Arrow - Just too far away.. but WOW.. what a great deal..

Thoughts :
1. CAP - best deal ( without having to buy an airplane ) - but no non-cap members can fly.
2. Piper 160.. would require most up front, and no ownership knowledge scares me..
3. The learning curve for the Comanche seems quite a lot.. I do not want to have a steep learning curve at the same time as the IFR training.. too much, too soon.
4. Arrow - maybe.. but still an hour away...


Thanks for the honest feedback !
Alan
 
Oh, and on point:

I've owned for a year and a half now, and bought more airplane than some thought I should (Mooney). You can find lots of posts on buying and owning, but here's a few things I'll pass along that worked For Me. YMMV..

* Get the hangar first. I wasn't about to spend $$$ and leave it sit outside. If I couldn't have found a hangar, most likely I'd still be renting.

* Spend $$$ up front for a great airplane (get a prebuy, and if that looks good, turn it into an annual). This minimizes (but not eliminates) your owner headaches. I spent more than I wanted to but it was all worth it when the second annual (after I'd owned a year) turned up nothing major. The mechanic said "You've got a real nice airplane there. A lot of people don't understand the importance of buying a good airplane."

* Set a budget. Figure out right now how much of your income you're willing to spend not only on the plane itself, but monthly on flying. We can all help with that.

* [CONTROVERSY ALERT] Try to pay cash for the plane. Loans suck, and they eat into your cash flow for paying for flying. If you're rich, ignore that. :)

* Have a maintenance reserve. Not an engine reserve, but a maintenance reserve, in cash. What do I mean? Well, I remember someone on rec.aviation.* saying, twenty years ago-ish, "If you can't, on a moment's notice, afford to write a check for $2000, you can't afford to own". This is more or less true. You do NOT want the experience of spending $$$ to buy a plane that's just going to sit until you can save up enough money to pay for the spendy thing that just broke. OTOH, your maintenance reserve doesn't have to be huge... 2AMU (Airplane Monetary Units, $1000) should do it.

* Try to buy with the avionics you want already installed. You'll never get your money back installing after the fact.

* Don't be afraid of high performance airplanes. I went from cessnoids and warriors to the Mooney. Greased the first landing (yes, I did. It was the 2-5 that sucked. So there.)

* Don't try to buy an airplane for the 5% missions. Most of the time it's going to be just you. Then, you and one other person. If you need to haul more than that, either make more money and buy the big airplane, or just rent it when you need it.

* If you can't afford to fly an hour a week (on average... 50 hours a year) you're going to hurt the airplane. It's bad to let it sit. And more is better.

Yup, I'm ignoring which of your choices to recommend. Take these heuristics, and all the other advice you're likely to get, and then look at 'em again. :)

Oh, and one last one, which is just a personal choice... No way I'd consider a partnership. They work great for lots of people, but I think I'd still not feel as free as I do right now. MY airplane is sitting in MY hangar waiting for ME to go flying anytime I want to. I like that. :)
 
That Comanche sounds like a great deal.

7k for only having to share with four people? Plus you can actually get somewhere and carry four people if you want. $10 an hour + fuel will allow you to fly more. The 7k may be mostly recouped as well if you sell after a few years.

As for opinions on the Cherokee 140, I fly one. It's a great plane, easy to fly, but the backseat is unusable and yeah, 2 people will full tanks is it. So it just depends on your mission.

Honestly though, if your mission allows it, I'd keep flying the CAP 172.

Getting to fly any plane for $90 an hour all in is a good deal.
 
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Thank you for the honest thoughts .
I will elaborate based on your thoughts :

* Get the hangar first. I wasn't about to spend $$$ and leave it sit outside. If I couldn't have found a hangar, most likely I'd still be renting. Hangars are $500/month at home field. The Comanche partnership has been grandfathered in at $220/month.

* Try to buy with the avionics you want already installed. You'll never get your money back installing after the fact. The Comanche has the basic instruments.. The Cherokee/Arrow has Garmin 430/530 combos. CAP has non-IFR Apollo GX55.

* Don't be afraid of high performance airplanes. I went from cessnoids and warriors to the Mooney. Greased the first landing (yes, I did. It was the 2-5 that sucked. So there.). Of my 4-5 options.. Only the Comanche falls into this category. Not afraid.. just much different than the 172's power. I could only dream of a 172 climbing out at 1500'/minute at 120 kts. lol

* Don't try to buy an airplane for the 5% missions. Most of the time it's going to be just you. Then, you and one other person. If you need to haul more than that, either make more money and buy the big airplane, or just rent it when you need it. I 100% agree. Do I need a 737 to fly 20 miles away for a hamburger - no. Do I 'need' a HP airplane = No, Of my 155TT hours.. I have only carried 2 passengers - a total of 6 times... So a true 2-seater is the 99% rule.

* If you can't afford to fly an hour a week (on average... 50 hours a year) you're going to hurt the airplane. It's bad to let it sit. And more is better. -I agree... and Yes.. I could fly 1/week.

* Oh, and one last one, which is just a personal choice... No way I'd consider a partnership. They work great for lots of people, but I think I'd still not feel as free as I do right now. MY airplane is sitting in MY hangar waiting for ME to go flying anytime I want to. I like that. Having a partner that is a AP, and 2 others relieves my fear of owning an airplane by myself.
 
Bonchie said:
That Comanche sounds like a great deal.

7k for only having to share with four people? Plus you can actually get somewhere and carry four people if you want. $10 an hour + fuel will allow you to fly more. The 7k may be mostly recouped as well if you sell after a few years.

Pro's - HP, Complex, Fast, Huge payload, Cheap, 1 partner is an AP..
Cons - HP, Complex, Its a 1958 model.. with basic instruments. Might be difficult to learn IFR with the 'shotgun' panel setup. ( not the standard 6 pack ).

As for opinions on the Cherokee 140, I fly one. It's a great plane, easy to fly, but the backseat is unusable and yeah, 2 people will full tanks is it. So it just depends on your mission.

Pro - Good looking airplane, great IFR equipment ( Garmin 430, Autopilot )
Cons - $25k cash - lol.. No ownership support, no hangar, small payload

Honestly though, if your mission allows it, I'd keep flying the CAP 172.
Pro :Nothing wrong with it.. My IFR flight training will only be $38/hour plus fuel ( no instructor charge ). Only VOR:VOR IFR navigation, and no autopilot.
Con : Airplane availability, uniform, no non-cap passengers ( no wife/friends ).

Getting to fly any plane for $90 an hour all in is a good deal.
Click to expand...

Options, Options..
 
The Comanche sounds like a great deal unless it is due for an overhaul. Dont worry about it being 'too much', you'll need 10+ hrs for the insurance anyway, you will feel at home after 5.
 
First off for $225 I hope it had two engines or one radial or better.

As for your choices, if I had to pick one I'd go with the Comanche, sweet planes.

If it were me I'd get something smaller and cheaper and all my own (like a lil Grumman or something).

Also I don't do the whole CPA thing on figurin all my expenses, I put fuel in and go, I nip problems in the butt, and I do owner asset annuals.

Average annual for my 4 place is about 500bucks, except when I go and upgrade something.
 
weilke said:
The Comanche sounds like a great deal unless it is due for an overhaul. Dont worry about it being 'too much', you'll need 10+ hrs for the insurance anyway, you will feel at home after 5.
Click to expand...

Comanche only has 300 hours since overhaul...

I just 'feel' that I should start my instrument training in a less-complex airplane.
I am very comfortable in a 172.
 
I sometime think :
After my instrument.. what's next ?

1. CAP ? But no non-cap passengers
2. Rent a 172 from flight school ? Expensive
3. Buy ?

If I choose 3... then the Comanche is a monster airplane to own !
Fast, huge payload, outdated equipment that can be upgraded...
 
1 and 3. Continue to use the CAP plane, buy-in to the Comanche and get comfy on your schedule. Better training with round gauges and minimum radios for IFR will teach you cold and solid. If the CAP plane is taken, use the Comanche and just throttle back, there's no rush when you are boring training holes. It'll slow down to 20 squared, and lean back to about 9GPH and you can do most of your hood work just puttering around.

After maybe 15 hours in the Comanche, drop more and more of the CAP plane, and pick up more in the Comanche. They are good flyers, and with the exception of being a bit touchy on landing, it's a fine way to get around. Plus, it's on your field, and you get a staff along with the plane.
 
It was a little bit difficult to get used to the 'shotgun' panel.. lol
I am so used to the Standard 6 pack ( 8 with the dual VORs ) or G1000...

The Comanche has the manual flap bar, manual brakes ( no toe brakes ), and the hand crank for trim on the roof. Little different..
 
spcalan1 said:
Comanche only has 300 hours since overhaul...

I just 'feel' that I should start my instrument training in a less-complex airplane.
I am very comfortable in a 172.
Click to expand...

You still have the cap 172 right ? Do you have a cap cfii ?

If you do some of your instrument training in the pa24 you are going to be a skilled instrument pilot in that aircraft. Out of the options it sounds like the one with the most utility as in actualky being a 'go somewhere' aircraft.
 
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Comanche. It will expand your flying. It's not hard to learn.
 
I own a Comanche with two partners. It's almost nicer to have the partners than owning it alone. One knows a heck of a lot about maintenance and always seems to be washing the plane on a weekday when I'm at work and am unable to help!
 
To make the decision really easy for you, contact the partners in the Comanche and go for a ride. You'll be hooked and your decision made before the wheels touch back down on the runway. :yes:
 
More important than the plane in a partnership are the partners. Try to get a feel of how they get along before writing a check.
 
Maybe you listed where you live, but if so didn't catch it. Are you going to be dealing with mountainous areas?

There are people here whose experience dwarfs mine, but I have a few experiences that are worthy of sharing in a thread like this. If you have never been in a situation where you can't put distance between you and the ground and realize that you are in an under powered airplane that lacks the performance to bail you out let me tell you that it is a sobering experience. Twice while flying a Warrior that I had rented with my wife on board we just couldn't get the thing to climb after taking off. For a few dollars difference I could have taken an Archer and was kicking myself for flying the weaker airplane. We pulled it off, but I felt like an idiot for taking a trainer on a trip. Later I owned a quarter share in a 180 Cherokee and had this happen again departing Reno after the Air Races one year. That was the day I committed to never again fly an under powered airplane, and I haven't. The Cherokee was sold after I got home. I believe to my core that horsepower is the barrier between a pilot and a date with the reaper. I'm not saying that you can take off recklessly without concerns for heat, weight, and runway length, etc., but horsepower will bail you out on those days where you might need the margin or it can open up destinations where it will be required. Whatever I purchased if I were you would be predicated on horsepower more so than what is easy or convenient for you to quickly buy in to. But, you asked about a choice between what is available for you right now so I digress.

I'm a huge Comanche fan. If you are actually insurable in it this is a no brainer. You can put a WAAS GPS into the Comanche, but you can't turn the other planes you listed into a Comanche. With that said though if I were King you would be looking for a 182 or a 235 Cherokee.
 
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The Comanche sounds good. You will need to fly accurate airspeed to make good landings. Instrument flying is also a precision thing, the two should mesh well together.

If you go complex, insurance will require some dual, often 10 hours or more, sometimes with additional solo time. This will help you get used to the extra speed, the few extra steps, and the panel layout. Use this time to learn the plane before instrument lessons.

I started in a partnership with one person, it worked out well. Know who your partners are, do you get along as people? Is their flying style similar to yours? How do they feel about maintenance and upgrades? If they want it, you'll need to kick in your share; if you want it, will they shoot it down? What is the usage rate on the plane? How often will it be available when you want it? (Much of my instrument training was done in the evening after work, but some was on convenient weekends--when will you want to train vs. when will the other partners want the plane?) How is scheduling done? Rules for extended trips [week-long trips, two nights, etc.]?

Don't want to discourage you, as partnership can work well, but these things should be thought about and discussed in advance. Some partnerships last for years [I know of one in the second decade, two people and 4 planes], some end early due to conflict. AOPA has some advice on this buried somewhere in their site, check it out.

Whatever you do, good luck! Have fun and fly safe!!
 
spcalan1 said:
2012 Cessna 172 G1000 - $225

But most of my flight were in a 2005 Cessna 172, non-G1000.. $185
Click to expand...

Wow! I thought it was expensive in the DC area, where a G1000 is around $165 and steam gauge 172S is maybe $145. Shoot, the G1000 182 with GFC700 is only $199/hr.
 
This may sound stupid, but when I don't really know what I want to do, my rule is to do nothing. Let some time sort it out which it usually does in short order.

Sounds like OP you have a real sharp pencil on it, so talking money is superfluous.

You have to go with what you want and what fits YOU. jmho. :redface:
 
Do the Comanche and get the partners to upgrade it with a 430W or better. Split four ways that's very doable.

I've had good success with partnerships, although found two-way and three-way to be best. Four-way left too many "...whatever the other two want to do" situations. But it was still doable.
 
weilke said:
You still have the cap 172 right ? Do you have a cap cfii ?

If you do some of your instrument training in the pa24 you are going to be a skilled instrument pilot in that aircraft. Out of the options it sounds like the one with the most utility as in actualky being a 'go somewhere' aircraft.
Click to expand...

Yes.. and Yes..
The CAP 172 is still available and 8 minutes from home.. and 3 minutes from work.
Hangared, 80% available with enough lead-time.
Yes, I have a CAP CFI that can teach me ( other than the CFII requirement time )
 
weilke said:
The Comanche sounds like a great deal unless it is due for an overhaul. Dont worry about it being 'too much', you'll need 10+ hrs for the insurance anyway, you will feel at home after 5.
Click to expand...

Engine only has 400 hrs on it.
Insurance requires 20 to get my HP and Complex rating.
 
comanche pilot said:
To make the decision really easy for you, contact the partners in the Comanche and go for a ride. You'll be hooked and your decision made before the wheels touch back down on the runway. :yes:
Click to expand...

Oh I did yesterday..
We climbed out at 1500'/minute at 120 kts... true rocket ship.
Steep turns were no problem, landings need to be 're-learned'...

The panel is a shotgun pattern.. manual flaps, manual hand brake, overhear trim wheel. minimal equipment...but still a great plane..
 
txflyer said:
This may sound stupid, but when I don't really know what I want to do, my rule is to do nothing. Let some time sort it out which it usually does in short order.

Sounds like OP you have a real sharp pencil on it, so talking money is superfluous.

You have to go with what you want and what fits YOU. jmho. :redface:
Click to expand...

Agreed...
I did fly the Piper Cherokee 140/160 today.. smaller than a 172.. no thanks...
 
spcalan1 said:
Agreed...
I did fly the Piper Cherokee 140/160 today.. smaller than a 172.. no thanks...
Click to expand...


172 and a 140 are no comparison in my book.

I learned in a 140 when I was seventeen and I could do somersault's into the cabin, but I like my doors now and not tunnel crawling into a cabin over a wing.

I can say this. If you can afford it, sole plane ownership has been one of the most fulfilling things in my life. Put your pencil aside, because it's about more than that. It's worth more than money. You can't quantify it. :)
 
spcalan1 said:
Engine only has 400 hrs on it.
Insurance requires 20 to get my HP and Complex rating.
Click to expand...

Spend 5hrs on learning how to land the thing and 15hrs on instrument instruction. Fly most approaches to full stop landings to get the flow required for the complex plane. I had about 100hrs in pa24/30 before I went for my IR in an Archer. One day the Archer was in maintenance and we took a Comanche. Found out right there that instrument flying is easier with a CS prop and retractable gear. After a while you aregoing tothink that the trim crank is SUPPOSED to be on the cabin roof (just like a Otter and plenty other bigger aircraft).
 
I fly a mooney, the comanche is similar in efficiency, slow down to 172 speeds and I bet you will get 40% better mpg than a 172.
 
My Mooney gets >10% better mileage than Skyhawks when flying at normal speed. Slowing down will increase that, but it's so in-Mooney-like!
 
I would be all over that Comanche... but check with the other partners and see if they're interested in upgrading to have an IFR GPS and at least rearrange the panel to a standard 6-pack (the Ron Jon panels are pretty reasonably priced I think). It may help your case to point out that they'll need an upgrade before 2020 anyway...

But still, a heckuva nice airplane for a very reasonable price. And you can continue to fly the CAP plane when availability and mission allow for it, too.
 
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