Aircraft purchase gamble

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TommyG

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So me and a friend have been talking about buying a 182. Looking in the 100k range. We had been working on two other possible partners, but they don't seem to have real commitment. Is it a wise idea to purchase what we want and then let another two peolple buy in after the fact? We have also contemplated buying the plane and starting a club with more than two members.

It is a gamble that we won't find two people after the purchase, but I think it's might work out.

Anyone have any experience or knowledge in this area?
 
Buy a 50k 182 with your committed buddy and have fun. Counting on others to afford more then you are comfortable with is foolish.
 
Decide now what you will do if you can't find the new partners.

Do you have the ability to keep the plane in a two man partnership? As a sole owner if one of you can't swing a two man partnership?

If the answer is no, don't compound the cost of buying by adding the cost of selling. If you can swing it, Go For It!

-Skip
 
100k for a 182?

Unless it's one of those canard ones, I don't see why anyone would pay that much for a 182.
 
James331 said:
100k for a 182?

Unless it's one of those canard ones, I don't see why anyone would pay that much for a 182.
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Any other 182 I see out there is crap. Either high time engine or crap avionics. I'm not looking to buy one where I have to put an engine in after a year or two. Or spent 10 - 12 k to get at least a 530. If you can find me one cheaper with at least a half time engine or at least a 530 WAAS pleas show me where to find it. We have been looking and looking. And only find crap in the 60 to 70k range.
 
If you're cool with spending 100k on a 182, there was a listing linked here a little while ago for a Katami (sp?) 182 with the canard and what not, if you're spending big might as well buy a 182 that performs like 100k.


It's hard to believe that you can't find a decent /G one for 50-60k, there are tons of 182s out there, for 100k I'd be shopping for a 180.
 
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http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/2075876.html

1957 Cessna Skylane, N5866B, 5027 total hours, 490 SFRM, IFR Cert, Garmin 430 WAAS, S-tech AP, GPSS, BAS 4 point restraints/inertial reels, new paint, leather interior, extended range fuel tanks, Only DH is hangar/control surface, replaced by Cessna in 1957 or 58. Always hangared.
 
N2124v said:
http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/2075876.html

1957 Cessna Skylane, N5866B, 5027 total hours, 490 SFRM, IFR Cert, Garmin 430 WAAS, S-tech AP, GPSS, BAS 4 point restraints/inertial reels, new paint, leather interior, extended range fuel tanks, Only DH is hangar/control surface, replaced by Cessna in 1957 or 58. Always hangared.
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There ya go.

GNS430W, STEC AP, HSI, BAS belts, good times on it, nice paint and cosmetics, for 53k, probably can get it for less. Not shabby
 
He said he wanted a 530 though. Limiting yourself to a good WAAS GPS isn't a bad idea, but to demand a 530 over a 430 is gonna really limit choices just because people often aren't willing to give up that much panel space, or simply don't have the space to give. It also seems silly to spend 30-40k more on a plane that has a 15-20k gps added to it, vs. a similar plane without. What's the saying, spend a dime to save a nickel?
 
James331 said:
There ya go.

GNS430W, STEC AP, HSI, BAS belts, good times on it, nice paint and cosmetics, for 53k, probably can get it for less. Not shabby
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Looks good. I will look into it, in the end it comes down to the logs.
The last set of logs I got recently for a 68 182. Engine only had 6 hours on it in 3 years. And 2 years of 4 years of no annuals prior last years annual.
 
TommyG said:
Looks good. I will look into it, in the end it comes down to the logs.
The last set of logs I got recently for a 68 182. Engine only had 6 hours on it in 3 years. And 2 years of 4 years of no annuals prior last years annual.
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Don't let a few years without annuals or a little sitting dissuade you.

For the year, unless it has well over 10,000hrs the plane sat.

When I spent some time out of country, I pickled my engine and she sat with some sheets over her in my hangar for a little over a year, no annual, no biggie.


Get the FAA CD, run a NTSB search on all tailnumber it has had and the SN, match any accidents with the FAA CD and the log, be sure to tell your prebuy AP to focus in on those areas. Match all that to what the seller discloses, sometimes this can help you find out if the seller is full of chit.

In addition, I like to run the owner in the FAA database, seems to me the higher level of license the better the plane is maintained. When you go up on your test flight, aside from the normal matching the planes performance against the book and recording numbers, I'd also really watch how the guy handles the plane, does he shock cool on decent, does he let the plane warm up before takeoff, is he ham fisted, etc.
 
Just remember, when taking a gamble... you got to know when to hold em....
 
Mason said:
THIS 1977 has a 530. And about 200 hours left on engine TBO, for $60k.
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During my six seater thread I came across this one. A little apprehensive of "a couple questionable cylinders" but the damn thing looks so nice and is so clean on the panel, it may be worth a few cylinders and some repair to get this thing running well. If I had a partner willing to throw down 50k for a split, I'd certainly have no issues checking this one out.
 
gitmo234 said:
During my six seater thread I came across this one. A little apprehensive of "a couple questionable cylinders" but the damn thing looks so nice and is so clean on the panel, it may be worth a few cylinders and some repair to get this thing running well. If I had a partner willing to throw down 50k for a split, I'd certainly have no issues checking this one out.
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Yeah. I was thinking, if you are prepared to spend $100k, buy this and fly it for a few hundred hours and if you need to do engine work at some point you are still below budget.
 
gitmo234 said:
During my six seater thread I came across this one. A little apprehensive of "a couple questionable cylinders" but the damn thing looks so nice and is so clean on the panel, it may be worth a few cylinders and some repair to get this thing running well. If I had a partner willing to throw down 50k for a split, I'd certainly have no issues checking this one out.
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Looks like he put his money into paint, not under the cowl, and I'm sure that theme runs through the whole plane.

I'd RUN away from that one.
 
James331 said:
Looks like he put his money into paint, not under the cowl, and I'm sure that theme runs through the whole plane.

I'd RUN away from that one.
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I think that's a bit of a questionable statement. Really no way of knowing how well or poorly the airplane has been maintained without an inspection and I don't think nice paint necessarily means the guy neglected the rest of the aircraft. Besides, in the scheme of things, paint is the cheapest thing you can do except maybe the interior.
 
TommyG said:
Any other 182 I see out there is crap. Either high time engine or crap avionics. I'm not looking to buy one where I have to put an engine in after a year or two. Or spent 10 - 12 k to get at least a 530. If you can find me one cheaper with at least a half time engine or at least a 530 WAAS pleas show me where to find it. We have been looking and looking. And only find crap in the 60 to 70k range.
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http://steveweaver.com/n3046f.htm

http://steveweaver.com/planes/1356s_p.jpg
Straight guy I bought my plane from him.
Clean 182 he have two for sale at this moment none is close to 100k ;)
 
I'd say buy the plane you can afford. My first foray into ownership was a 3-way partnership in a piper lance. I thought i needed something big and fancy. The partnership ended very badly when one partner got divorced. After that experience i bought what i could afford at the time, a 65hp no-electric ercoupe. It wasnt much of a plane but it was all mine. I flew that plane all over the middle and east of the usa and it was a great experience because i didnt have to rely on anyone else for it.
 
All the planes listed so far are gonna need a new engine in a year or two...exactly what the OP does NOT want as he is going into a partnership application...so add $30k to those numbers...$100K is not off base for a low time later model decent panel good paint and interior 182.

Yes, you can get a 182 for well under $65K but not everyone wants to fly a 50 year old plane with shag carpet. Nor would I wanna buy into a partnership with a run out old plane.
 
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Ok so I'm dumb but most of the newer 182s that I see are >250,000. Where can I find a slick 182 for <75,000 that's not over 10 years old?
 
Stryker1112 said:
Ok so I'm dumb but most of the newer 182s that I see are >250,000. Where can I find a slick 182 for <75,000 that's not over 10 years old?
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who can afford a plane that new? I'm 43 and I don't expect to ever own a plane younger than me unless I build it. Besides, new planes are heavy pigs compared to older ones.
 
Partnerships are for the birds. Find a plane you can afford buy it and be happy you are flying and enjoy YOUR ride.
 
Shawn said:
All the planes listed so far are gonna need a new engine in a year or two...exactly what the OP does NOT want as he is going into a partnership application...so add $30k to those numbers...$100K is not off base for a low time later model decent panel good paint and interior 182.

Yes, you can get a 182 for well under $65K but not everyone wants to fly a 50 year old plane with shag carpet. Nor would I wanna but into a partnership with a run out old plane.
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The first one, straight tail, is still low time and should be good pending a prebuy.

The second one with 200hrs shy of TBO, is basically run out IMO.
 
Shawn said:
All the planes listed so far are gonna need a new engine in a year or two...exactly what the OP does NOT want as he is going into a partnership application...so add $30k to those numbers...$100K is not off base for a low time later model decent panel good paint and interior 182.

Yes, you can get a 182 for well under $65K but not everyone wants to fly a 50 year old plane with shag carpet. Nor would I wanna buy into a partnership with a run out old plane.
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The link I posted had an engine with about 1000 hours on it:dunno:
 
I've never had a partner, other than my father, but I've got a couple friends that have done it. Sometimes it's great, sometimes it sucks!
My first suggestion would be that there no loan on the aircraft itself, if each partner needs to borrow their share, do it through another means, home equity etc. That way if a partner has financial issues, you aren't stuck with his part of the payment. :mad2:
Second, if you're looking for a good P or Q model 182, with good paint, interior, avionics and low to mid time engine, you are probably going to spend $75-100K. ;)
 
AKBill said:
Partnerships are for the birds. Find a plane you can afford buy it and be happy you are flying and enjoy YOUR ride.
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They can be, but they can be great. For me it makes sense. If you are able to divide up the monthly bills, tie downs up here aren't cheap. Also one partner is an a&up is does help.
 
I have a Q model for sale, 1740 total airframe and engine hours. 430 WASS and newer paint. Even if I put a factory new engine in it I doubt I could get anywhere near 100 K
 
James331 said:
Looks like he put his money into paint, not under the cowl, and I'm sure that theme runs through the whole plane.

I'd RUN away from that one.
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plus....l.always hangared? ! did I miss that! yes, run for sure. The guy admits it's a high time engine so.....if it goes bad you've got way too much money in this old....old airplane. Which is why he wants rid of it.
 
Is it your plane?

Did not think I was going to offend anyone by giving some rather good advice to not buy a near timed out aircraft, when someone else posted a FAR lower time plane in nice condition not a few posts above it.

But yeah, that's who is going to buy that plane, pretty paint, timed out engine. I'll wager that modern cessna swosh paint job is the only hope he might have to be able to hook a buyer for anything over 30k.


FYI, it's not the age, it the timed out engine, and it's a 182, not like there is a shortage of them on the market :goofy:
 
I misunderstood your post to mean that because he had it painted, he skimped/neglected maintenance elsewhere. If I was incorrect then I apologize.

I'm shopping around and I definitely agree with you that I'm not buying anything with 1800 hours on the engine, no matter how pretty the paint and panel are, unless it's so cheap that I can buy an overhaul right away and still come out paying a reasonable price.... Even then maybe not, because the airplane will be down getting an overhaul while I could be burning up the skies:)

Paint really is the last thing I look at. If the paint is bad, it's a good bargaining chip and a new one is fairly cheap.
 
Me personally I don't know all the quirks of MX. I don't know how I feel about a 40 year old engine that still has life in it. example- just say a 40 year old engine with 1200 hrs. That comes to 2.5 hours a month, or lots of flying for a few years, and then a few years of little to no flying. When I get some of the log books and see gaps of annuals, I have to wonder why. And where is the line of when sitting a certain amount of time has a negative effect on the engine. We all see threads and posts about how sitting plane isn't a great thing. And a plane that has been being flown a decent amount, then has no annual for a few years, it does raise red flags.

So yeah there are planes out there that are cheap, but sometimes they are cheap for a reason. And I am not one to believe what the seller is telling me. So it's find one we are interested in, get the logs, then have someone go check out the plane, another I am not taking the seller's word on it, and I am not taking the word of the mechanic he recommends.

I don't mind getting something if I know it's worth it, but I also am not just jump on something because it's cheap. If that was the mindset for everyone there would be a whole lot more 30 year old used cars out there on the road.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I misunderstood your post to mean that because he had it painted, he skimped/neglected maintenance elsewhere. If I was incorrect then I apologize.

I'm shopping around and I definitely agree with you that I'm not buying anything with 1800 hours on the engine, no matter how pretty the paint and panel are, unless it's so cheap that I can buy an overhaul right away and still come out paying a reasonable price.... Even then maybe not, because the airplane will be down getting an overhaul while I could be burning up the skies:)

Paint really is the last thing I look at. If the paint is bad, it's a good bargaining chip and a new one is fairly cheap.
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Good call
 
this all depends on what you want in a plane. if you just want something to fly for a few years and then flip it, then yes you want to spend the money for something that is completely done already. Even then though, there are no guarantees. Any used machine is a gamble and we all fly used machines. Also it might be useful to stop thinking of something like an engine as one part. The discussion often tales the tone of, engine breaks, rebuild the engine. That's not how it works. An engine is just a collection of small parts. Usually, if a part breaks, fix that part and keep flying.

At the other end of the shopping spectrum, if the airplane is a keeper then nothing matters except the airframe. Engines, propellors, avionics, paint, interior, these are all just attachments to be tailored to your personal tastes as part of the journey.

Personally I've never owned a plane that I didn't bring hime either with a ferry permit or on a trailer. I bought airframes that I thought were a value for the quality of the airframe and then made them into the airplane that i wanted.
 
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