Air Conditioning in a C172 or PA28?

[Matthew K]

Hello all!

As we all know, air conditioning in non pressurized aircraft is a rarity. Since I live down in such a humid climate though, I still think about wanting a air conditioned aircraft. I believe some old PA28s had the option of air conditioning, but by now would need to be completely replaced and those are hard to find to begin with.

I was wondering if anyone's familiar with aftermarket air conditioning installations for a C172 or PA28, and what the estimated cost would be? Since these planes are already pretty low powered, the compressor would only be used on the ground or while cruising at low altitudes. I believe there are some after market kits out there, I just don't know anyone who's had any experience with them.

P.S. I don't have a plane right now...but when I get one it's probably going to be a C172 or PA28 so that's why I'm asking about these.

 

[RyanB]

Artic Air and B-Kool are the two cheapest options. Portable and easy.

 

[MAKG1]

I know where there is a PA28 with air conditioning for rent.

It's rare, but it can be done.

Not sure I'd like what that does to useful load, though.

 

[Theboys]

There is a self contained unit available you can put on baggage compartment. Run battery cables to it and it runs off your battery. They make 12 and 24 volt units with the 24 volt working better and costing less. Can run anytime engine is running to charge your battery. Think it's around 60 lbs and about 5 or 6 grand.? Can be moved from plane to plane and taken out in winter. I thought about buying one fairly seriously.

 

[Matthew K]

Artic Air and B-Kool are the two cheapest options. Portable and easy.

Yes but you have to bring ice for every flight and that still doesn't solve the humidity issue.

There is a self contained unit available you can put on baggage compartment. Run battery cables to it and it runs off your battery. They make 12 and 24 volt units with the 24 volt working better and costing less. Can run anytime engine is running to charge your battery. Think it's around 60 lbs and about 5 or 6 grand.? Can be moved from plane to plane and taken out in winter. I thought about buying one fairly seriously.

Hmm I don't believe I've seen this. I imagine you'd have to put a pretty hefty alternator on the plane. Do you know who sells them?

 

[Matthew K]

There is a self contained unit available you can put on baggage compartment. Run battery cables to it and it runs off your battery. They make 12 and 24 volt units with the 24 volt working better and costing less. Can run anytime engine is running to charge your battery. Think it's around 60 lbs and about 5 or 6 grand.? Can be moved from plane to plane and taken out in winter. I thought about buying one fairly seriously.

Is this it? http://www.kellyaerospace.com/airconditioning.html

 

[RyanB]

Yes but you have to bring ice for every flight and that still doesn't solve the humidity issue.

How would you solve the humidy issue? I can't see how an A/C system installed into an airplane is going to fix that any better than a portible unit.

 

[SCCutler]

I have flown an Archer with the factory sir, worked great. Minimal impact on performance.

 

[Matthew K]

How would you solve the humidy issue? I can't see how an A/C system installed into an airplane is going to fix that any better than a portible unit.

A/C System's by nature remove moisture from the air.

 

[Theboys]

Matthew. That's not the one I was thinking of, however if I upgrade to s model 172s I might put that in couple. The Kelly is permenent install, but, sweet. Over 10g though. I've got couple brochures around I will try to find. Ones I am talking about are about size of medium cooler. Saw them at sun n fun. They don't work quite as well with only 12 volt system, but they do come that way. The icebox system just doesn't really interest me. My plane has ac and I love it. Was thinking of for training 172s. Always hot in the pattern doing 50 go arounds per day. Lol

 

[Theboys]

Found it. It is a artic air rac100 or Rac 200. About 4500$. 12 volt is 42lbs and bigger 24 volt is 50lbs. Brochure says the 12 volt will turn air in 4 place airplane in 60seconds and 24 volt in 30 seconds.

 

[SoonerAviator]

If you use dry ice in the cooler systems, it would probably eliminate any humidity issues. I'd rather use those so that I have the option to remove if I need the extra payload. PA28/C172 are payload limited as it is, much less with the factory a/c.

Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk

 

[Matthew K]

Matthew. That's not the one I was thinking of, however if I upgrade to s model 172s I might put that in couple. The Kelly is permenent install, but, sweet. Over 10g though. I've got couple brochures around I will try to find. Ones I am talking about are about size of medium cooler. Saw them at sun n fun. They don't work quite as well with only 12 volt system, but they do come that way. The icebox system just doesn't really interest me. My plane has ac and I love it. Was thinking of for training 172s. Always hot in the pattern doing 50 go arounds per day. Lol

Oh wow I didn't realize that kelly system was over 10 grand. Yea I'm still in flight training and doing pattern work/touch & gos are intense when its 100 degrees out with high humidty in that plane that is my profile picture.
What plane is that in your profile picture?

Found it. It is a artic air rac100 or Rac 200. About 4500$. 12 volt is 42lbs and bigger 24 volt is 50lbs. Brochure says the 12 volt will turn air in 4 place airplane in 60seconds and 24 volt in 30 seconds.

Awesome. I'm actually surprised that the energy consumption isn't higher. What year did C172 start coming with 24 volts? All the ones at my local FBO are 12v I believe.

 

[midcap]

what kind of clothes are you guys wearing during the summer for it to be that hot?

I normally wear a dri fit shirt and have no problems with all the air blowing on me.

 

[Matthew K]

If you use dry ice in the cooler systems, it would probably eliminate any humidity issues. I'd rather use those so that I have the option to remove if I need the extra payload. PA28/C172 are payload limited as it is, much less with the factory a/c.

Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk

To me the ice systems aren't worth the frustration. As far as dry ice goes it might prevent more moisture in the air but it certainly wouldn't remove existing moisture like a a/c system. The 42lb system that @Theboys mentioned would be a much better opinion that just ice in my opinion. Given that investing $4600 a plane isn't much a problem.

 

[Matthew K]

what kind of clothes are you guys wearing during the summer for it to be that hot?

I normally wear a dri fit shirt and have no problems with all the air blowing on me.

I wear under armor clothes...temp isn't an issue if we're above 3,000ft usually. But if we're doing pattern work it's crazy especially considering all the work your doing while in the pattern.

 

[Theboys]

My profile pic is a pa46. Malibu. I think they changed during the n model to 24 volt as we have a 80 n model with 12 and a 81 with 24. I might be a year off those as I don't have the logs in front of me.

 

[lmars]

Dry ice may not be a good idea. It may cause hypercapnia in some people. That is elevated carbon dioxide levels.

 

[Matthew K]

My profile pic is a pa46. Malibu. I think they changed during the n model to 24 volt as we have a 80 n model with 12 and a 81 with 24. I might be a year off those as I don't have the logs in front of me.

Huh...my FBO has a couple of 2000 year model C172's so maybe I just didn't notice they were 24v when I was last in one. Is that pa46 yours? Because those are pretty darn expensive.

 

[RV10flyer]

10 minutes of climb will usually get us into 40-45 F OAT. We carry O2. We get warm on the ground though.

 

[Theboys]

Yes it is mine. They aren't as expensive as you think. Very reasonable to fly. It's n9102h and you can see my speeds at flight aware. I burn 13.5 gals at those speeds. I flight plan for 15 with my long climbs. Burns 23 gal for about 30 to 45 minutes but I make some of it up during descents at 188kt vne indicated.

 

[midcap]

Yes it is mine. They aren't as expensive as you think. Very reasonable to fly. It's n9102h and you can see my speeds at flight aware. I burn 13.5 gals at those speeds. I flight plan for 15 with my long climbs. Burns 23 gal for about 30 to 45 minutes but I make some of it up during descents at 188kt vne indicated.

damn....that's the plane I need.

 

[Matthew K]

Yes it is mine. They aren't as expensive as you think. Very reasonable to fly. It's n9102h and you can see my speeds at flight aware. I burn 13.5 gals at those speeds. I flight plan for 15 with my long climbs. Burns 23 gal for about 30 to 45 minutes but I make some of it up during descents at 188kt vne indicated.

Ah. I guess I meant expensive because a quick Google search shows the post 2000 versions are easily over half a million. But I guess if a business is also using it like you have yours registered to that price tag wouldn't matter as long as it's making money. I definitely wouldn't mind having one myself

 

[focal_plane]

Yes but you have to bring ice for every flight and that still doesn't solve the humidity issue

These units use chilled water as refrigerent with a heat exchanger. It is not a swamp cooler that depends on evaporation and saturates the air with water. It really isn't much different than a freon system except the working air travels over the water/icebed briefly. Increase in humidity is negligible in my experience. We have used our Bkool Bob unit for the last 4 months every weekend and the previous 5 years. You are right about having to have ice.

 

[denverpilot]

Every factory AC system I've ever seen was either labeled "INOP" or was completely removed to get the weight penalty back.

Seminole used to have one, it's long been removed.

 

[Rykymus]

I have the Arctic Air. I have used it on occasion, but dealing with all the ice, and then draining it after the flight is a bit of a pain. For the most part, I avoid doing pattern work during the summer, and keep what flights I do make during hot days at higher altitudes. I'm also really good at holding the door open with my right hand and controlling the throttle with my left.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

Dry ice (I tried it) freezes the water circulating through the sump pump and renders the whole thing dead. It looks cool though. Not sure there are really issues with breathing it. Lots of air coming in these little planes we fly.

 

[RyanB]

A/C System's by nature remove moisture from the air.

That's my point, the portible unit or an installed system in your aircraft both serve the same principle.

 

[Matthew K]

These units use chilled water as refrigerent with a heat exchanger. It is not a swamp cooler that depends on evaporation and saturates the air with water. It really isn't much different than a freon system except the working air travels over the water/icebed briefly. Increase in humidity is negligible in my experience. We have used our Bkool Bob unit for the last 4 months every weekend and the previous 5 years. You are right about having to have ice.

What I continue to mean is to remove humidity from the air. They probably don't increase humidity much if at all, but if I'm putting in a cooling system for a plane on the east coast, I want it to remove moisture too. For dryer parts of the US I might be content with the Ice unit but around where I live it would be money better spent to have an actual a/c in my opinion.

That's my point, the portible unit or an installed system in your aircraft both serve the same principle.

If your saying the installed a/c or the aftermarket dc a/c systems portables then yes. Based off what you quoted I figured you were talking about a/c in general or the portable ICE units.

 

[Matthew K]

Every factory AC system I've ever seen was either labeled "INOP" or was completely removed to get the weight penalty back.

Seminole used to have one, it's long been removed.

Well also the factory ones are usually removed once they stop working because you'd basically have to put a whole new a/c in since no one uses the old a/c systems like they had in the 70s. Same reason for inop. Don't quote me on this but a local flight school has a PA28 with air conditioning and it cost them $6,000 just to have the refridgerant refilled since no one uses the refridgerant anymore. Or maybe he meant they were replacing the whole system. Idk.

 

[rbridges]

What I continue to mean is to remove humidity from the air. They probably don't increase humidity much if at all, but if I'm putting in a cooling system for a plane on the east coast, I want it to remove moisture too. For dryer parts of the US I might be content with the Ice unit but around where I live it would be money better spent to have an actual a/c in my opinion.


If your saying the installed a/c or the aftermarket dc a/c systems portables then yes. Based off what you quoted I figured you were talking about a/c in general or the portable ICE units.

I have a portable ice box AC. It does take some of the humidity out. It is great for what it does, but the blown air only gets down to around 70's F for me. Much better than 100+, but not as cold as a freon unit. It's a little bit of a pain, but I bring it on hot days. I bought it primarily for my instrument training where you're constantly dropping to lower altitudes.

 

[Scott@KTYR]

Found it. It is a artic air rac100 or Rac 200. About 4500$. 12 volt is 42lbs and bigger 24 volt is 50lbs. Brochure says the 12 volt will turn air in 4 place airplane in 60seconds and 24 volt in 30 seconds.

My friend put the 12 volt unit in his PA32 Lance. Works Great!

Our FBO became a dealer/installer for the unit. It is easy to disconnect and slip out of the plane if you need 42lbs more useful load.

 

[MAKG1]

Well also the factory ones are usually removed once they stop working because you'd basically have to put a whole new a/c in since no one uses the old a/c systems like they had in the 70s. Same reason for inop. Don't quote me on this but a local flight school has a PA28 with air conditioning and it cost them $6,000 just to have the refridgerant refilled since no one uses the refridgerant anymore. Or maybe he meant they were replacing the whole system. Idk.

I've converted six cars from R-12 to R-134A. With a vacuum pump and some fittings and O-rings, this is neither expensive nor difficult. They work well as long as you only charge them to 80%.

Much more likely, you may not be able to get parts.

 

[Ted]

Ah. I guess I meant expensive because a quick Google search shows the post 2000 versions are easily over half a million. But I guess if a business is also using it like you have yours registered to that price tag wouldn't matter as long as it's making money. I definitely wouldn't mind having one myself

Malibus have been in production for over 30 years. Earlier ones have a much different price tag than the newer ones, and many would argue the earlier ones are better in a number of ways.

Regarding AC, the best thing to do is to get one of the ice units. That will take the edge off as you climb out, which will make cruise a lot more tolerable. One of the problems I find is that being heat soaked on the ground makes it take much longer to cool off at altitude. The 414 needs the air conditioning to work. June I flew it 40 hours and sweated about 40 gallons worth, it was just miserable even at altitude. As much as I'd love to save the 80 lbs, this is 80 lbs that's worth it.

 

[focal_plane]

What I continue to mean is to remove humidity from the air. They probably don't increase humidity much if at all, but if I'm putting in a cooling system for a plane on the east coast, I want it to remove moisture too. For dryer parts of the US I might be content with the Ice unit but around where I live it would be money better spent to have an actual a/c in my opinion.

Why do you believe a bkool or arctic air would not remove water from humid air? The heat exchanger in the ice units operate at very similar temperatures as an evaporator on a Freon system. As air is cooled below the saturation temperature in the heat exchanger, water vapor condenses into liquid water. Whether that occurs with Freon as the refrigerant or chilled water as the refrigerant, the humid air doesn't care

 

[labbadabba]

My only experience with factory air was that it didn't work that great on the ground (except during run-up) so it sort of defeated the purpose.

Once you get up to 5,500 or so it's not an issue anyway. That said, I wish CAP 182's had AC. Flying 1,000 AGL at 90kts for 2 hours makes for sweaty work. I can only imagine what those pipeline guys in Louisiana and Texas have to deal with.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Dry ice may not be a good idea. It may cause hypercapnia in some people. That is elevated carbon dioxide levels.

My understanding is that the ice (dry or otherwise) was just a heat transfer mechanism via a radiator. The air isn't being directly transferred across the bed of ice, so there shouldn't be much problem with sublimation of the CO2. I suppose it's dependent on the actual design of the cooling mechanism.

Dry ice (I tried it) freezes the water circulating through the sump pump and renders the whole thing dead. It looks cool though. Not sure there are really issues with breathing it. Lots of air coming in these little planes we fly.

I wonder if something like antifreeze could be added in the sump system so that it would prevent the lines from freezing up. Obviously it would have to use something a bit better than general automotive antifreeze to withstand -100F, but I'm sure something exists that could work. It'd sure make for some really cold air!

 

[focal_plane]

My understanding is that the ice (dry or otherwise) was just a heat transfer mechanism via a radiator. The air isn't being directly transferred across the bed of ice, so there shouldn't be much problem with sublimation of the CO2. I suppose it's dependent on the actual design of the cooling mechanism.
I wonder if something like antifreeze could be added in the sump system so that it would prevent the lines from freezing up. Obviously it would have to use something a bit better than general automotive antifreeze to withstand -100F, but I'm sure something exists that could work. It'd sure make for some really cold air!

If you get the heat exchanger below 32F, you'll form ice on the heat exchanger. No air will be blowing then.

 

[Cavorter]

This is the one I think @Theboys is referring to. You do have to provide a means for the exhaust air to be dumped outside the aircraft. They provide a flexible hose you can direct through the rear fuselage.

http://www.arcticaircooler.com/category-s/1477.htm

For the 24V unit, if you can tolerate the top 37 Amps you get 10,000 BTus/hour of AC. So running one hour let's say that is equivalent to 70 lbs of ice in the simple ice cooler version. Two hours would be 140 lbs of ice. It weighs 50 lbs so definitely more cooling power relative to ice. If you only need the cooling effect for less than an hour it probably makes sense to get the ice version.

 

[focal_plane]

Matthew, I agree with folks about the pain of dealing with ice. I helped a friend refurb his a/c on an arrow. The plumbing that gets the Freon to and from the evaporator (behind the aft bulkhead) that penetrates the firewall with fittings from heck, is in a terribly difficult area to deal with. I was not terribly impressed with the performance after complete refurb. The air was cold but so little volume of air was provided that you were just hot. PA-28s just don't seem to flow much air through the overhead ducts (my archer without ac but with a blower is the same way). I don't have any experience with the 172.

I decided to go the ice route. Have a freezer in the hangar. Abandoned making ice cubes, was too painful. Make block ice in different kinds of storage containers (restaurant plastic to go trays work nicely, Tupperware or the equivalent of today etc.). 4 or 5 blocks of ice + 1 or two blue ice freezer packs gives me at least 15 minutes of air. Enough for taxi, climb, descent, taxi. On descent, I bring it back on when it hits 70 degrees and close vents. Seems to work well for us.