AILERONS vs RUDDER CROSS CONTROL AND LANDINGS

[Lindberg]

The knock on crab and kick is that if you do it correctly, you have to do three things: the coordinated crabbing segment, the transition, and the side slipping segment. If you just slip to begin with you only have to do one thing. Plus you're lined up all the way down final, so you're not trying to kick in just the right amount of slip at the end, probably misjudging it, and landing with sideload on the gear.

 

[smv]

I start all students with slip all the way from rolling out from the base-to-final turn until touchdown. Once they master that, I allow them to crab and transition to the slip closer and closer to the tarmac. That way they get the feel and sight picture of what it takes to get into the correct slip and the transition becomes no big deal. For a beginer, that transition is just too much happening at the same time, especially when they are already trying to break the code on the flare.

I can go either way but my personal preference is slip the entire way unless I have passengers in the back that cannot see out the front window. Primarily because you will know before you get to the tarmac whether or not the wind exceeds the capability of the airplane. There have been a few times I had the rudder to the firewall and the ailerons pegged and I was still drifting sideways. If it does not get better crossing the threshold, it is time to go around and come up with a new plan.

 

[PaulS]

The knock on crab and kick is that if you do it correctly, you have to do three things: the coordinated crabbing segment, the transition, and the side slipping segment. If you just slip to begin with you only have to do one thing. Plus you're lined up all the way down final, so you're not trying to kick in just the right amount of slip at the end, probably misjudging it, and landing with sideload on the gear.

There really is not much to misjudge when kicking into a side slip. I just align the plane to the runway, then enough aileron to keep it aligned. Not really any thinking at all. The key I think is to be a on centerline during the crab to make it easy.

 

[FastEddieB]

One good exercise is to go up on a windy day and establish flight over a road perpendicular to the wind. Establish flight over that road in a crab, than establish a slip that keeps you over the road, then back to a crab, and repeat as necessary. Then turn around and do a bunch in the other direction. I would have my students practice that before getting heavily into crosswind landings, and I think it helped.

Once one is comfortable with that, I think it makes sense to crab right up until the roundout and flare. In some planes a prolonged slip may unport the fuel feeding from a given tank, and some POH’s warn against extended slips for that reason.

I can go either way but my personal preference is slip the entire way... because you will know before you get to the tarmac whether or not the wind exceeds the capability of the airplane.

Good point. Even if one chooses to crab on final, “testing” the ability of the plane to handle the crosswind in a slip at some point on final is not a bad idea. The good news is that a vast majority of the time the crosswind will diminish once in ground effect.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

OK, Normally I get up at 5:30 (AM, not PM), get ready for work, and leave the house before anyone else gets up. This morning? No. For reasons I can not comprehend, both the wife and daughter are up and in the kitchen getting in my way by 6:00.
Anyhow, the point being, the wife says I crab in the morning.
But in the airplane, I am more likely to do a slip and kick (no flaps).

 

[dbahn]

Doesn't anyone consider passengers in their technique??? Most passengers are both startled and afraid of a long duration slip on the entire final approach. Most have no idea that you're crabbing and care even less, and most expect a little "violence" as you actually land.

I don't hesitate to slip all the way even from downwind or base leg if I'm alone, but usually crab and kick with passengers. A slip is a very safe maneuver, despite it being kind of unnerving to passengers.

 

[Lindberg]

Doesn't anyone consider passengers in their technique??? Most passengers are both startled and afraid of a long duration slip on the entire final approach. Most have no idea that you're crabbing and care even less, and most expect a little "violence" as you actually land.

I don't hesitate to slip all the way even from downwind or base leg if I'm alone, but usually crab and kick with passengers. A slip is a very safe maneuver, despite it being kind of unnerving to passengers.

I wouldn't do an extended forward slip to lose altitude with a nervous passenger, but in a side slip aligned with the runway, what are they going to notice other than one wing is lower?

 

[DFH65]

I learned the what you are calling the crab and kick in my initial PPL. I find it easier now to set everything up a little ways out get the wing down enough to keep me lined up on center line and put in enough rudder to align the nose with the runway. I fly her down knowing I have enough rudder for the crosswind and coming in straight. Especially in a tailwheel it is slightly disconcerting to me to be close to the ground with the airplane not facing straight down the runway.

 

[RoscoeT]

I wouldn't do an extended forward slip to lose altitude with a nervous passenger, but in a side slip aligned with the runway, what are they going to notice other than one wing is lower?

Why do you feel there's a difference? Either way, the passenger is going to see the wing low and feel uncomfortably (to them) pushed hard to one side of their seat.

Especially in a tailwheel it is slightly disconcerting to me to be close to the ground with the airplane not facing straight down the runway.

Tailwheel pilots regularly slip to land and straighten out a foot or so above the runway without x-wind. Crabbing and slipping to straighten out just before touchdown in x-wind is just a reciprocal process.

 

[FastEddieB]

I routinely slip fairly aggressively on final to my grass strip.

My passenger briefing before landing is to warn them...

1) Don’t be alarmed by the stall warning horn - it’s normal to hear it prior to landing.

2) I may get the plane just a little sideways to lose altitude - it may feel a bit weird but is also normal.

Forewarned is forearmed, and I’ve never had anyone “freak out” during the process.

And thinking about it, I wonder if the tandem seating makes it feel more natural. Maybe?

 

[DFH65]

Tailwheel pilots regularly slip to land and straighten out a foot or so above the runway without x-wind. Crabbing and slipping to straighten out just before touchdown in x-wind is just a reciprocal process.

Great point, I slip to land all the time and regularly slip it pretty close to the ground before straightening out. Although I don't wait that long in a strong crosswind. Probably just my inexperience with just over 100 TW hours. When it is blowing a little and I get to 20-30 feet on approach my brain is saying (maybe screaming ) get it straight and keep it straight, keep it straight, keep it straight...

 

[smv]

Doesn't anyone consider passengers in their technique??? Most passengers are both startled and afraid of a long duration slip on the entire final approach. Most have no idea that you're crabbing and care even less, and most expect a little "violence" as you actually land.

If you are doing anything intentionally that causes your passengers to be "startled", you need to rethink your processes and how you communicate with your passengers.

I have never had a passenger (let alone "most passengers") get startled by a slip because I let them know what is about to happen.

 

[dbahn]

I have never had a passenger (let alone "most passengers") get startled by a slip because I let them know what is about to happen.

LOL. Have you ever looked at your passengers when you're in a significant slip? Even when they're expecting it most of them are climbing up to the high wing side with wide open eyes . . .

That's the beauty of a slip on long final. You get a chance to look at them long before you touch down.

 

[RoscoeT]

LOL. Have you ever looked at your passengers when you're in a significant slip? Even when they're expecting it most of them are climbing up to the high wing side with wide open eyes . .

If you're slipping a Cessna, there's not much to notice, if you're slipping a Cub, they notice haha.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I find this argument entertains every time it comes up. I have taught people to fly little airplanes and transport category jets. The actual mechanics of a proper crosswind landing are very similar regardless of which technique used. The biggest difference is in the timing of control inputs.

The airline I taught at was a first jet job for many of our new hires. New hires that consistently had the biggest problem learning how to land a jet in crosswinds were the ones that never developed good rudder usage in small airplanes. I can vouch for the fact that people make it all the way through their instructor ratings and teach at flight schools without learning some very basic skills. It’s awesome when the ATP candidate tells you they always sucked at crosswind landings and never really understood what they were doing... makes one wonder how they passed a CFI checkride.

I prefer the slip in small GA aircraft. Normally make the transition passing through ~50’ depending on conditions and type. I would teach the transition at around 100-150’ to give more time to stabilize the ac and with experience the altitude of the transition naturally moved to whatever altitude the individual liked. The slip does induce a somewhat uncomfortable ride for inexperienced passengers but I find it to be the most reliable way to safely be in control at landing in little airplanes. I brief new passengers thoroughly. If they are uncomfortable with what I brief they can stay on the ground.

I find statements about how it’s possible to land in more crosswind with kick out method confusing. Good decision making prevents us from needing superior skills. If I had to employ such techniques to get on the ground I would reassess my risk management and decision making.

 

[RoscoeT]

I find statements about how it’s possible to land in more crosswind with kick out method confusing.

Trike pilots who allow the landing gear config to cover half their slop.