Age & Training

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LJS1993

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LJ Savala
Is a person, within reason, ever too old to not only gain a PPL but to become an excellent pilot? I ask this because I'm looking at being forty five-fifty before I can financially handle the rigors of flight training. How many of you guys started your flying experience more at the middle age mark instead early on in your twenties and thirties? For you CFI's have you seen a difference in the type of student you get in terms of age?
 
LJS1993 said:
Is a person, within reason, ever too old to not only gain a PPL but to become an excellent pilot? I ask this because I'm looking at being forty five-fifty before I can financially handle the rigors of flight training. How many of you guys started your flying experience more at the middle age mark instead early on in your twenties and thirties? For you CFI's have you seen a difference in the type of student you get in terms of age?
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You can do it. There's a knowledge component and a skill component--just think of it that simply. It may take longer than when you were 20, but who knows or cares? Many pilots have started much later than you!
 
It really depends on the individual. I have recently flown with an individual who finished his career before embarking on flying, and who has been flying commercially. Past age 65, his performance suffered, but I don't think it's a function of his age.

I've worked with some excellent older pilots, and have worked with some very poor young ones. Age can be a factor, but it's not the factor.

There are ways you'll approach your training that a young person may not, and you'll see your investment in your training quite differently. Bringing maturity to the table when studying and learning isn't a crime.

I began flying as a teenager and have flown my entire teenage and adult life, including a full career out on the line, and am still going strong. My outlook and approach to flying, and my understanding has changed over the years. I look at the flying I do today with a different view than I may have when I was fifteen or eighteen or thirty.

Those who might tell you it's never too late may have never started later in life, and don't know the challenges, but those who tell you it's too late are also in the same boat, and either dreamers who will never realize their dream (and thus are jealous) or simply those who know no better. Ignore them.

If it's what you want to do, then do it. Your ability to succeed rests in nearly direct proportion to your desire to do so.
 
The rigors of flight training? What are they? I soloed at 32, admittedly a little young for your scenario, and became an instructor at 40. My oldest student was 73, but I had many, many in their 40s, 50s, and 60s. You are only as old as you feel. Go for it.

Bob Gardner
 
Got my PL last year at 48yo. Took me 5 months to complete my training and did my check ride at 40.9 hrs. Just bought a C172m this past April and I'm having a blast!

Yea...you can do it!
 
The biggest problem I see for older trainees is unrealistic expectations. Those with patience and understanding of their capabilities (which are not what they were when they were 22) do well. Those who attempt to train at a rate beyond their current capacity, including the distractions of work and family, do not. The key is developing an appropriate training program and pace.
 
My mother-in-law learned to fly when she was 50. Later on she moved up from her 172 and purchased a Piper Aztec and got her multi / complex endorsements. At 70 she flew her Aztec from Georgia to Alaska and back. The only problem I ever knew about was her depth perception at night. When we flew together at night she would always get me to land for her because of this. Otherwise she was a pretty spunky pilot to be 70 years old. I really think it boils down to motivation and drive rather than just physical age. I know as we age our minds are not quite as sharpe but it just takes a little extra effort to accomplish whatever we put our minds to. I say go for it!
 
Ron Levy said:
The biggest problem I see for older trainees is unrealistic expectations. Those with patience and understanding of their capabilities (which are not what they were when they were 22) do well. Those who attempt to train at a rate beyond their current capacity, including the distractions of work and family, do not. The key is developing an appropriate training program and pace.
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I think the unrealistic expectations also sometimes stem from having been successful in their career and believing that is going to carry over to flying which is a completely different endeavor. It can be an unfamiliar and somewhat disturbing feeling for someone who is used to success to not have something come to them right away.
 
bobmrg said:
The rigors of flight training? What are they? I soloed at 32, admittedly a little young for your scenario, and became an instructor at 40. My oldest student was 73, but I had many, many in their 40s, 50s, and 60s. You are only as old as you feel. Go for it.

Bob Gardner
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And - for those who don't know - you've built a dang stellar reputation and career for yourself despite your (relatively) advanced age!! ;)
 
I've had numerous primary students in their 50s and 60s. Not a problem. The only problem with waiting until you're older is you'll have fewer years left to fly!
Go for it. - Russ
 
51 when I got my ticket all that long time ago... man, it's been... what... almost 36 hours.

I might have been able to learn a hair quicker when I was 21 or 31, but that's academic. I was supporting kids by then, lots of them, and couldn't afford to learn to fly. Heck, Harrison Ford was 50, I think he said, when he got his license. I'm a safer, more educated,more knowledgeable person than I was back then. Plus now we don't have to hand-prop the engine on a Sopwith, like they did when I was younger. :)
 
DaleB said:
51 when I got my ticket all that long time ago... man, it's been... what... almost 36 hours.
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Heh. Old fart. ;)

DaleB said:
I'm a safer, more educated,more knowledgeable person than I was back then. Plus now we don't have to hand-prop the engine on a Sopwith, like they did when I was younger. :)
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Heh. I always used to keep in mind that I was in the highest risk group of aviators right after I received my license, and that there's another hump around 200 hours, and tempered my judgement calls accordingly. You're right in the thick of it for "loss of control" accidents and incidents right now.

And of course, we all can be humbled by the fact that "pilot error" still outweighs EVERY other fatal and non-fatal accident and incident cause in the safety records than any other cause for all pilots of any experience level.

It's sooooo tempting to believe we aren't the weak link. We almost always are, though.

I may be knowledgeable and relatively safe in all other endeavors (not really, but we'll say so for purposes of example), but I'm still the guest risk to myself and my passengers when flying.

Sobering, isn't it? Fly safe!
 
P.S. I suspect that telling someone highly successful in other areas of their lives that they will guaranteed be the weak link in their own safety, forever, is a growth experience that's hard to duplicate... And likely the lesson lost on those who fall not the stereotypical traps. The "Doctor killer" types.

They might even believe that BRS in the top of the fuselage is a higher priority than their own training and skill refinement.

If they "get it" instead, they work hard to never have to pull the handle, and then we see the opposite effect... The increase in accidents where the handle *should* have been pulled.
 
denverpilot said:
Heh. Old fart. ;)
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Hey! I highly resemble that.

denverpilot said:
I always used to keep in mind that I was in the highest risk group of aviators right after I received my license, and that there's another hump around 200 hours, and tempered my judgement calls accordingly. You're right in the thick of it for "loss of control" accidents and incidents right now.
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Oh yeah. I have no illusions about my abilities, but I do know I am a lot more disciplined and more risk averse now than I was when I was half as old. It compensates for the rickety bones, fading eyesight, and the overpowering urge to growl, "Get off my lawn!" to neighborhood kids.
 
Passed my PP check ride 2 days after turning 49. Passed my IR check ride at 59. Who are you calling "old"?
 
Nothing wrong with starting training when you're older. You can do anything you want if you put your mind to it. Those who say you can't don't know any better and are just a bunch of dreamers.
 
Well, I'll take the other side here.

I've seen a few pilots recently get 'too old' to fly. I'll say this, it's a sad thing too. Hopefully a pilot is able to tell himself when it's time to hang it up because it goes way too far when someone else steps in.

In our system the FAA requires a medical doctor to sign off that a pilot is healthy enough to fly. For commercial operations this has to be done every 6 months. But that sign off is just an opinion that the applicants physical body is good enough to go another 6 months. The eyes are sharp enough, the heart probably won't quit, the urine...well...whatever they do with that (look for sugar I think)

Point is, nobody checks the mental condition of a pilot. Who in the system would pull a pilot with Alzheimer's out of the cockpit? And these people could be flying professionally. Part 121 just raised the limit to 65, but 135 and 91 have no limit. I'm not saying they should...but do we want folks with Alzheimer's flying planes?

To your question...I don't think it's tied to a certain age. Not everyone gets a disease and many are sharpe as a whip past 90. My grandmother is 91 and still plays tennis. She isn't a pilot...but I think mentally could be.
 
:rofl:
LJS1993 said:
Is a person, within reason, ever too old to not only gain a PPL but to become an excellent pilot? I ask this because I'm looking at being forty five-fifty before I can financially handle the rigors of flight training. How many of you guys started your flying experience more at the middle age mark instead early on in your twenties and thirties? For you CFI's have you seen a difference in the type of student you get in terms of age?
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:rotfl:

Well if you're too old I guess I beat the odds! I turned 63 in May and passed my Private Pilot checkride 4 days before last Christmas.

Last Summer I met a man in his very late 80's that started flying in his late seventies and got his certificate.

I might respectfully suggest to you that you need to forget about your age. I will tell you what changed my attitude toward aging in the hopes that you and others find this helpful. It probably changed my life.

I moved out in the boonies where I now live a little over 25 years ago which would have made me about 38. In driving the 20 mile trip to town, I drove by a Skeet & Trap club. I always wanted to stop there and see what it was all about, but just didn't have the extra time and money at the time with a growing family.

In the Spring of 1998, I stopped one day. They had just opened the gates so there were only two people there preparing for the days shooting. A friendly fellow introduced himself and ended up teaching me to shoot skeet. He had been a submarine motor machinist in WWII and had run a power plant after the war, retiring in 1983. At the time, he and most of the others that frequented the club were all WWII veteran age and all were as spry and active as you could expect from almost any age group.

It was getting to know these fellows that made me realize that the so called Sunset years don't have to be spent licking your wounds in a rocking chair. From the time I started getting to know these guys onward, I have just forgotten about the aging process.

I work out five times a week, am on no medication beyond a low dose aspirin a day and I expect that I could probably outrun anyone where I work that is over 40, in a foot race.

Had I not met these guys and learned that getting old is not a bad thing, I might very well just have taken to the recliner and the TV instead of staying active and not thinking like an old man.

Although I only rarely shoot at the Skeet club any more, I see the guys from time to time. Many of them are still alive including the submariner and although a little older and a little slower, they are still kickin' and enjoying life.

There's just no need AT ALL for someone at the age of 45 to think that there is anything that they can't do unless it is extremely strenuous. That said, even 45 year olds can be triathletes if they set their mind on it.

Don't think of yourself as old. Stay active in body and mind. Eat right, exercise and keep up the bedroom activity. My wife turns 60 next month and we both keep all that going to keep us healthy and happy.

To your question, age will change the learning process slightly, but so what? If it takes you a few more hours to get your private, no one will keep score except yourself and no one even says that YOU have to.

Go find an instructor, get some study material and learn to fly! You're only as young as you feel.
 
Well, I'm only 73, I'll get back with you when I am old and let you know how it is going...

Not as strong as I was at 30 (shrug - I out think it, not out muscle it)
Vision still 20/20 with glasses - but that bottom line on the eye chart getting 'really' small the last couple of times...
And, I now shy away from 8 or 10 hours going across country on a hot, bouncy day - never used to...
OTOH, I have survived the bravado of youth - and I can see those 'gotcha' situations coming a mile away (it's called experience)
I don't have any need to prove myself (if you don't understand that I am the best pilot that ever lived, it is because you are young and stupid - not my problem! )
 
Captain said:
Well, I'll take the other side here.

I've seen a few pilots recently get 'too old' to fly. I'll say this, it's a sad thing too. Hopefully a pilot is able to tell himself when it's time to hang it up because it goes way too far when someone else steps in.

In our system the FAA requires a medical doctor to sign off that a pilot is healthy enough to fly. For commercial operations this has to be done every 6 months. But that sign off is just an opinion that the applicants physical body is good enough to go another 6 months. The eyes are sharp enough, the heart probably won't quit, the urine...well...whatever they do with that (look for sugar I think)

Point is, nobody checks the mental condition of a pilot. Who in the system would pull a pilot with Alzheimer's out of the cockpit? And these people could be flying professionally. Part 121 just raised the limit to 65, but 135 and 91 have no limit. I'm not saying they should...but do we want folks with Alzheimer's flying planes?

To your question...I don't think it's tied to a certain age. Not everyone gets a disease and many are sharpe as a whip past 90. My grandmother is 91 and still plays tennis. She isn't a pilot...but I think mentally could be.
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You make some good points, but Alzheimers can touch young people as well. My Mother In Law was in the Alzheimers wing of a nursing home and there were TWO people there who were in their thirties. Somehow it was more sad than the older folks.

My Dad spent his last few years not with Alzheimers but got so that he just didn't understand things. He even turned over his lawn mower duing this period. Had he been a pilot someone would have had to tell him not to fly, and I expect they (probably I) would have. I'm the one that had to stop him from driving which was a HUGE deal.

Because of my experience with my Dad, I will be on the alert for odd behavior in myself and if people start pointing out that I have weaknesses I will listen to them.

All this said, I hope you are not aiming your comments toward a 45 year old.
 
When my wife was almost 54, she suddenly decided she might like to learn to fly. She started lessons a few months later and attained her license when she was 54. Three years later and over 400 hours of flight, I rate her excellent. She is halfway through her IFR training now, although that has been temporarily put on hold while she has to go through a 10 year recertification process to retain her Veterinary Specialist Certification.
 
You'll find plenty of pilots that didn't start until they had matured a bit. Although I flew gliders when I was younger, I didn't get my PPSEL until I was 52. Multi at 59. ATP at 62. If you're healthy and want to do it, then age should not be an issue.
 
I believe EAA or AOPA featured a pilot who just passed his PP and was 80+. You're never too old to start.
I started helicopter transition training at 57. It's money not age that's slowing me down!
 
No way, the OP is way too old. He should just give up, sit in his chair, watch the tube, and get ready for a life of Depends, Prosac and Viagra.
 
Started 38 and finished 39. Had I started earlier I wouldn't have had the money to keep going anyway so I think 40s+ makes it as good as a time as any.
 
I started yesterday training for my PPL and I about a month from turning 48. I just hope I pass by the time I'm 49.
 
Point is, nobody checks the mental condition of a pilot. Who in the system would pull a pilot with Alzheimer's out of the cockpit?
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Who would pull a pilot with alzheimers out of the cockpit? Any AME, any chief pilot, and anybody with half a brain with the remotest of interest in the operation. In a heartbeat.

You think a pilot known to have alzheimers would be allowed to remain flying professionally? You know of such folks?
 
Thanks for the input guys. It's good to see that many of you aren't life long pilots and got in the "game" so to speak in your thirties, forties, and beyond. I was under the impression that most of you guys began at a very young age where your learning curve is supposedly the highest. Again, thanks for your input and patience.
 
LJS1993 said:
I was under the impression that most of you guys began at a very young age where your learning curve is supposedly the highest.
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Sure, but disposable income is lowest. Flyin' ain't cheap. :)
 
My wife's grandfather learned to fly and got his PPL at 65, bought a 172 and flew around as a volunteer with an evangelical organization for many years giving kids rides.:D
 
Thanks for the input guys. It's good to see that many of you aren't life long pilots and got in the "game" so to speak in your thirties, forties, and beyond.
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I started flying as a teenager, and it was a regular thing when I started flying passengers to be asked for my driver's license. I got tired of being told that I didn't look old enough to be flying. My first job after graduating high school was ag work (crop dusting). Don't hold that against me, though. It's not a bad thing to start at an early age.
 
DouglasBader said:
Who would pull a pilot with alzheimers out of the cockpit? Any AME, any chief pilot, and anybody with half a brain with the remotest of interest in the operation. In a heartbeat.

You think a pilot known to have alzheimers would be allowed to remain flying professionally? You know of such folks?
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It's my understanding that the only way to positively diagnose Alzheimer's is to test brain matter after an autopsy. So the premise of 'known to have Alzheimer's ' is already faulty. (if true)

But, people do get Alzheimer's, pilots too. At the early stages nobody knows what it is and often make excuses for loved ones. 'Oh, they just having a 'senior moment' or 'everybody loses their keys from time to time'. So the pilot keeps flying.

An AME isn't likely to spot early symptoms. How long do you spend with your AME? Most of the time is spent with nurses. I suppose they could notice something askew, but I'm telling you...Alzheimer's is weird. People have good days and bad days. What they do is often within the realm of normal, just 'different'.

A pilot with Alzheimer's might slow down and take extra long to complete normal tasks. Well, that's often preached as good advice. 'slow down'. When something goes wrong in the cockpit 'wind your watch'. Ever hear that one?

Point is, there is no mechanism in our system to test cognitive ability. I never suggested an AME would pass a person 'known to have Alzheimer's'. I'm saying an AME wouldn't know.

I'm also saying that if a pilots cognitive abilities do deteriorate then it's often the case that they continue to fly. Remember, these are often going to be the older pilots who have many friends in the company, often in positions of authority. Nobody wants to force a pilot like that to retire. Excuses are made. Until finally it's so obvious that it HAS to be done and at that point it should have been done a couple years prior.
 
It's my understanding that the only way to positively diagnose Alzheimer's is to test brain matter after an autopsy. So the premise of 'known to have Alzheimer's ' is already faulty.
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Amazing, really, that millions of living people manage to be diagnosed with alzheimers without need of an autopsy, isn't it?

How long do you spend with your AME? Most of the time is spent with nurses.
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Enough. I don't think I've ever been to an AME that had a nurse.

Point is, there is no mechanism in our system to test cognitive ability.
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Oh no? You're sure about that?

I never suggested an AME would pass a person 'known to have Alzheimer's'. I'm saying an AME wouldn't know.
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Not really. You said "Point is, nobody checks the mental condition of a pilot. Who in the system would pull a pilot with Alzheimer's out of the cockpit?"

You didn't say an AME would or wouldn't know; you said that nobody checks the mental condition of a pilot, and that nobody in the "system" would pull a pilot with alzheimers out of the cockpit.

The mental condition of pilots gets checked all the time, and I've seen more than a few occasions when pilots were told to take time off for a number of reasons, from going through a divorce to performance in the cockpit. I've known a lot of employers who were acutely aware of their pilot's mental condition. Furthermore, as the member of a pro standards committee for an international operation, I've dealt with a lot of cases of issues involving this very thing, brought to the attention of the committee by other crew members, by non-pilots and other company personnel, etc. The situation may or may not have been a diagnosed condition, but rest assured that a LOT of people monitor pilot performance, including emotional and mental state, and at most places where I've worked or operated it's ALWAYS been of prime importance.

You can absolutely be assured that an AME who is made aware of such a condition will certainly take it seriously, as will the FAA, diagnosis or not.

You may also reasonably rest assured that the regulation takes this into account as a standard for medical certification.
 
Sigh.

And yet, my point is valid. Maybe your organisation is 'Johnny on the Spot' at seaking out mental issues the day they develop. The rest of the world should follow your lead.

Also, please stop telling me that 'an AME who is made aware of a condition...'.

I've already made the case that it's nearly impossible to spot the onset of these conditions. Yes, by the time these patients are forgetting they have children it's obvious. I'm not speaking of this later stage and that is just as obvious.
 
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Here's an article from the College of American Pathologists:


Linky

Making the diagnosis of Alzheimer’s disease. A primer for practicing pathologists.

Mirra SS, Hart MN, Terry RD
Arch Pathol Lab Med 1993 Feb;117(2):132-44

There is demand on community pathologists to perform autopsies to confirm the clinical diagnosis of Alzheimer’s disease, the most common cause of dementia in our increasingly aging society. Yet many pathologists are reluctant to examine autopsy brains because they have little experience with neuropathology and with the common histopathologic staining methods needed to evaluate dementia cases. This article provides interested pathologists with a simple, practical protocol to use in meeting this demand. While there is no absolute diagnostic gold standard for Alzheimer’s disease and the histopathologic diagnosis remains imperfect, the guidelines presented are adapted from those used by many neuropathologists at Alzheimer’s disease research centers participating in CERAD, the Consortium to Establish a Registry for Alzheimer’s Disease. Recipes for appropriate stains and specific case examples are provided for convenience.
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Why would they want to confirm a clinical diagnosis with an autopsy? Maybe the testing of live patents isn't all that conclusive and my point was correct.
 
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I'm 37 and I am just now diving into aviation, Hope to have my PPL before 39, my A&P before 41, and my CFI by the time I am 45. So for my own sake...I hope it's not too late:D
 
Why would they want to confirm a clinical diagnosis with an autopsy?
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Research.

Maybe the testing of live patents isn't all that conclusive and my point was correct.
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Your point was not correct. The condition can be, and is diagnosed millions of times every year. Your assertion that "there is no mechanism in our system to test cognitive ability" is utter claptrap.

Perhaps you were never a flight instructor or have never been involved in training. Perhaps you've got a very limited employment background and have never been given cognitive tests as part of pre-employment screening. Perhaps you've never been through the ringer at training facilities or been evaluated regularly as part of your job. Pilots are closely observed for their judgement, assessment, skills, and cognitive abilities during all phases of training, formally and informally. Perhaps you've missed that.
 
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