Affordable/Obtainable Like New Cessna A/C

[sabraviation]

Hello,

Simply looking for some opinions and suggestions in an effort to approach my Families goals more intelligently.

Our Goal:

To help in the revitalization of GA by offering a like-new, modern, state-of-the-art, safe, reliable and beautiful Single Engine Piston (Cessna A/C) at a price that is obtainable/reasonable and fair, which is what we believe it was like/supposed to be "back in the day". We want to offer an A/C that does not require one to be apart of the "Elite Upper Class" to purchase.

So, the idea is to purchase (1) 1963 Cessna 182F model with average or below average TT, no damage history, all logs full/complete and all AD's complied with, also, to have power-plants with average to below average TT would be o.k., but not a must.

Why the 1963 F Model 182?

Its age will offer a lower starting cost point, you simply cannot go wrong with a 182 that has been mated with a proper power-plant and the 1963 F model seems to offer many of the sought after features a Pilot/Family could want.

Work to be performed:

New exterior paint with modern decal scheme, to include wheel pants-

Seats refurbished with fabric inserts and leather bolsters-

New interior plastics/head-liner carpet, etc-

New Ram's horn style yokes-

All push/pull levers replaced, possibly add a T-handle throttle quadrant, much like the new 182 JT-A now has-

The addition of Micro Vortex Generators-

New glass if cannot be polished to like-new condition-

The application of the latest/best in sound/vibration dampening materials-

All new door/window seals-

Major over-haul of power-plant and/or factory re-manufactured-

Complete Panel over-haul, to include "partial" glass avionics-

New tires-

Boom-Beam landing lights-

New ventilation system-

New wing-tips (to be determined as to which ones), with strobes-

Rosin visors-

Full harness seat-belts-

Angle of attack indicator-

L.E.D. Panel lighting-

New prop-

We are currently re-searching having a more modern cowling done, much like the modern/sleek Lopresti Cardinal 177 Cowling.

I'm sure I'm leaving something out, but I hope you get the idea.

The 1963 182F that we want to deliver/offer must have people wondering whether or not it is brand-new, that is the goal, not only in appearance, but performance as well of course.

Our ultimate goal is to offer such an A/C for under 100,000.00 U.S.D

Depending on how the response is with the first 182F, we certainly want to venture into doing the 1967 model Cessna 150 and the 1963 Cessna 172. We would also like to offer custom renovations on personally owned "like" Cessna models and Would also like to do some custom Cessna A/C designed/equipped specifically for Training purposes/Flight-Schools.

If you read all of the above, Thanks!

Look forward to reading your thoughts/opinions and suggestions!

Happy/Safe Flying to you and yours,

Al, Tatiana, Sebastian, Archer and Reagan.

 

[AggieMike88]

Ambitious.... Are you trying to build one for your own private use? Or are you asking this from a start up business perspective?

If the latter, I'm skeptical of the practicality of this project to purchase an older aircraft, mount new goodies on it, and then try to flog it is a "refurb'd new aircraft".

In the back of my brain, I'm thinking that that shopping list is going to eat up $100k really quickly and not leave much profit left, if any at all. Engine and avionics you propose are going to eat nearly half of that proposed sale price.

Or are you trying to beat AOPA and their sweepstakes gang at their own game??

Best of luck to you and keep us informed on the progress of the build out.

 

[JHW]

speaking as someone who works in that sort of business (taking old locomotives and reconfiguring them into something like-new) there is so much variability in the donor unit that you can never quote and build in a cookie-cutter way. Each job is different.

look at the people already doing this (like byerly's with twin commanders or basler with DC-3 conversions) and the prices are not discounted proportional to what you're proposing, not even close.

and based on what you've described I'd say your 100k number is about half if your fully burdened labor rate is in the $60 range. That's pretty cheap, probably implausibly so.

 

[N747JB]

Hello,

Simply looking for some opinions and suggestions in an effort to approach my Families goals more intelligently.

Our Goal:

To help in the revitalization of GA by offering a like-new, modern, state-of-the-art, safe, reliable and beautiful Single Engine Piston (Cessna A/C) at a price that is obtainable/reasonable and fair, which is what we believe it was like/supposed to be "back in the day". We want to offer an A/C that does not require one to be apart of the "Elite Upper Class" to purchase.

So, the idea is to purchase (1) 1963 Cessna 182F model with average or below average TT, no damage history, all logs full/complete and all AD's complied with, also, to have power-plants with average to below average TT would be o.k., but not a must.

Why the 1963 F Model 182?

Its age will offer a lower starting cost point, you simply cannot go wrong with a 182 that has been mated with a proper power-plant and the 1963 F model seems to offer many of the sought after features a Pilot/Family could want.

Work to be performed:

New exterior paint with modern decal scheme, to include wheel pants- $10K

Seats refurbished with fabric inserts and leather bolsters- $5K

New interior plastics/head-liner carpet, etc-$3K

New Ram's horn style yokes-? $1K

All push/pull levers replaced, possibly add a T-handle throttle quadrant, much like the new 182 JT-A now has-

The addition of Micro Vortex Generators-$1500

New glass if cannot be polished to like-new condition- $1500

The application of the latest/best in sound/vibration dampening materials-

All new door/window seals-

Major over-haul of power-plant and/or factory re-manufactured- $25K

Complete Panel over-haul, to include "partial" glass avionics-$20-50K

New tires-

Boom-Beam landing lights-

New ventilation system-

New wing-tips (to be determined as to which ones), with strobes-

Rosin visors-

Full harness seat-belts-

Angle of attack indicator-

L.E.D. Panel lighting-

New prop- $4K?

We are currently re-searching having a more modern cowling done, much like the modern/sleek Lopresti Cardinal 177 Cowling.

I'm sure I'm leaving something out, but I hope you get the idea.

The 1963 182F that we want to deliver/offer must have people wondering whether or not it is brand-new, that is the goal, not only in appearance, but performance as well of course.

Our ultimate goal is to offer such an A/C for under 100,000.00 U.S.D

Depending on how the response is with the first 182F, we certainly want to venture into doing the 1967 model Cessna 150 and the 1963 Cessna 172. We would also like to offer custom renovations on personally owned "like" Cessna models and Would also like to do some custom Cessna A/C designed/equipped specifically for Training purposes/Flight-Schools.

If you read all of the above, Thanks!

Look forward to reading your thoughts/opinions and suggestions!

Happy/Safe Flying to you and yours,

Al, Tatiana, Sebastian, Archer and Reagan.

I added up $71K and didn't include all your upgrades, add the cost of a decent airframe $30-35K and you're busting $100K real quickly, and that's no budget for repairs, like a leaking fuel bladder $2K.
I like the idea, but, you're going to end up with a $125K+ 182F that is 50 years old. Unless someone gives you the airframe, and it's pretty solid, it's going to be tough to get it ready for $100K. The avionics alone could top $50K, GTN 750, Aspen 1000, S-Tec autopilot, GTX 330 ES transponder, audio panel, that little bundle will kill $40K.

 

[bnt83]

even if labor was FREE, it would be very difficult to pull off all the mods desired and overhaul etc.

 

[sabraviation]

Ambitious.... Are you trying to build one for your own private use? Or are you asking this from a start up business perspective?

If the latter, I'm skeptical of the practicality of this project to purchase an older aircraft, mount new goodies on it, and then try to flog it is a "refurb'd new aircraft".

In the back of my brain, I'm thinking that that shopping list is going to eat up $100k really quickly and not leave much profit left, if any at all. Engine and avionics you propose are going to eat nearly half of that proposed sale price.

Or are you trying to beat AOPA and their sweepstakes gang at their own game??

Best of luck to you and keep us informed on the progress of the build out.

Hello and thank you for your input.

As far as the AOPA question, the answer is no, as theirs is/was a giveaway project, so not trying to compete with them...more like emulate their efforts, but in a more affordable/scaled down manner.

As far as the project being for ourselves, the answer is also no. It is our way of trying to offer an extremely nice, reputable and proven A/C with all of the basic, possible upgrades one could want within reason, again, at a retail amount that says, "yes, you can own this very attractive, like-new A/C with lots of drool-factor, without having to spend over 200k/300k for a new one."

Once all of the quotes have been gathered, we will be able to better decide on what route to take, as it is our ultimate goal to come in under the 100k mark.

Working with Lenders as well, so as to be sure we are within their lending guidelines for such an A/C, as we want a potential buyer to be able to get as close as he/she can to 100% financing based on the value/appraisal of the A/C once all work has been completed.

Yes, it is ambitious, but a family venture working together.

We've noticed that Nexair has done a like re-furb, that is incredible, on a 1982 Saratoga that has been for sale for quite some time now. Our thoughts is that the 300+k retail amount is why she still has not sold???

I know of a few Pilots that dream of having a new, modern looking A/C with all of the nice toys in it, just can't handle the price tag. Hopefully we can create that dream A/C that will allow these Pilots to live that dream.

Thanks again for your input, it is greatly appreciated/respected!

Happy/Safe Flying to you and yours!

 

[AggieMike88]

Working with Lenders as well, so as to be sure we are within their lending guidelines for such an A/C, as we want a potential buyer to be able to get as close as he/she can to 100% financing based on the value/appraisal of the A/C once all work has been completed.

Well, here we go again with the discussion about 100% financing a toy.

 

[bnt83]

RV10...

 

[sabraviation]

I added up $71K and didn't include all your upgrades, add the cost of a decent airframe $30-35K and you're busting $100K real quickly, and that's no budget for repairs, like a leaking fuel bladder $2K.
I like the idea, but, you're going to end up with a $125K+ 182F that is 50 years old. Unless someone gives you the airframe, and it's pretty solid, it's going to be tough to get it ready for $100K. The avionics alone could top $50K, GTN 750, Aspen 1000, S-Tec autopilot, GTX 330 ES transponder, audio panel, that little bundle will kill $40K.

Yes, you calculations are very close, again, the 100k mark is a goal. There's a high probability that we will not reach it, but we will certainly try our hardest.

I will soon post a more detailed list of items/equipment, along with estimated cost, ad we are still awaiting more quotes from suppliers.

Respectfully,

Al.

 

[JHW]

you seem to be saying "what if this could be done for less than a quarter million $$" well of course that would be great. But as you've described it, it can't. The question to answer is, what makes your operation cheaper than a person doing this for themselves ?

 

[bnt83]

I question anyone considering on pouring $50k+ into a bare aluminum 4 seat fixed gear spam can when a restart Cessna can be had for about the same $. Better corrosion protection, most have a decent autopilot already installed etc.

 

[sabraviation]

RV10...

We love the RV-10, especially the RV-10 AC Turbo from Aero Centro.

Thanks!

 

[docmirror]

I appreciate your ambition and look forward to your work. Marking down words on a web board is not the same as buying, stripping out, and refurbishing a plane to like new condition.

You will find that about 15-20% of your budget will be in the 'demo' part of the work to get it to a baseline before you even start back in resto work.

Next, you'll be competing in the market with all the other 1963 C182s out there at half or less your price. You don't get a new cert because that airframe has a serial number and registration already assigned. There is a market for the top of the GA fleet, just like there's a market for the Porsche Panamera out there despite their horrible depreciation. Nothing is stopping you from buying and working on your target plane now except money. Give it a try and see if you can make money. For my two cents of free advice, I think it's a quick way to lose about $40k

I'd like to add that look at what you'll be competing with at $100k. The top of the line, fastest Bonanza, or the lower end of the A36 or a Mooney 231/252. Hard to go that slow, burn that much gas when compared to these blistering machines.

 

[AggieMike88]

And do you care to reveal your rough numbers?

See John's post that avionics you propose could be $50k, an engine $25k, and we haven't purchased the aircraft yet....


We're not trying beating you down and kill your spirit or idea... it's just that the main group here has a large wealth of knowledge and a closet full of "been there done that" t-shirts.

As I said, your idea isn't bad, it is ambitious, but I don't think you're thinking practically.

 

[AggieMike88]

RV10...

OOC, what does it cost to build a well fitted RV10?

 

[wabower]

I'm not sure how strong the market will be with all those Icons being delivered.

 

[AggieMike88]

Nothing is stopping you from buying and working on your target plane now except money. Give it a try and see if you can make money. For my two cents of free advice, I think it's a quick way to lose about $40k

Ahhh... the old "How to make a million dollars in aviation..." theorem.

 

[docmirror]

Ahhh... the old "How to make a million dollars in aviation..." theorem.

Start with 10 mil.

 

[sabraviation]

And do you care to reveal your rough numbers?

See John's post that avionics you propose could be $50k, an engine $25k, and we haven't purchased the aircraft yet....


We're not trying beating you down and kill your spirit or idea... it's just that the main group here has a large wealth of knowledge and a closet full of "been there done that" t-shirts.

As I said, your idea isn't bad, it is ambitious, but I don't think you're thinking practically.

Thank you for your reply. We certainly do not take any comments in a offensive manner, as we are seeking all of your thoughts, suggestions and opinions, good, bad or indifferent, with the utmost respect.

What the Lenders will allow for any actual appreciation will be a tremendous deciding factor on this very ambitious family venture.

Respectfully,

Al.

 

[sabraviation]

Start with 10 mil.

Lol!

You said it buddy.

Needed a great laugh today.

Thanks!

 

[docmirror]

I'm not sure how strong the market will be with all those Icons being delivered.

Dateline:2028, Lake Isabella CA, Icon aircraft today announced they are only months away from releasing the preliminary draft of the potential delivery method. Icon aircraft is in the final phase of testing and design of their revolutionary Sport Pilot eligible amphibious LSA aircraft. Sadly, we mark the passing of Kirk Hawkins, the wunderkind developer of the Icon after 6 years of declining health. The Icon team expects delivery to commence shortly. "We're just putting the finishing touches on the cooling, instrument, gear, swing wing, prop, tail, and sponsons. Once we get that design locked in, we'll be shipping planes soon after." said the Icon spokesperson, echoing their mantra since 2008, a mere 20 years ago.

 

[Tom-D]

I have seen plenty of companies come and go in better markets trying to do this, all are gone, I wonder why?

I am in progress restoring a 48-C-170 and I'm already over average market. I am really prudent with my spending so we have 1 VHF, 1 transponder, intercom, new windows, paint, interior, and wing covering. Yet when you really try to spend money you can be very successful in doing that, but you won't recover it when you sell.

 

[AggieMike88]

Thank you for your reply. We certainly do not take any comments in a offensive manner, as we are seeking all of your thoughts, suggestions and opinions, good, bad or indifferent, with the utmost respect.

What the Lenders will allow for any actual appreciation will be a tremendous deciding factor on this very ambitious family venture.

Respectfully,

Al.

Financial Appreciation.... as in an increase of value? And an aircraft?

Ummmm..... sure.... live the dream I guess...

 

[N2124v]

At the end of the day you are asking a bank to finance a 50 year old airframe, that is still being produced, on the hope tat it will appreciate in value? I don't see any bank that would touch this for 100% financing. Also, if I'm not mistaken, all of the federal income tax benefits are for new aircraft.

I think you would be better of looking to find good, newer airframes, clean them up, minor updates, and resell.

 

[wabower]

FWIW, my business activities include ongoing interactions with banks and bankers regarding numerous aviation-related subjects. Early this week I spent several hours discussing aircraft lending with the Chairman of a large bank chain. Our initial conversation was about the valuation of a specific airplane and then moved on to a discussion of bank lending policies in the post-recession era.

He echoed the same sentiments of others over the past few years who have said they will continue to make loans that make sense but that the rules have changed and are not likely to regress to the LTV ratios and terms of the past. For openers, he has reinstituted the requirement that loan amounts are to be based on a percentage of loan value rather than retail value, and trimmed the amortization periods significantly.

Accordingly, I suggest that anybody whose business plan foresees bank financing to be sure their ducks are in a row prior to spending any money on such an endeavor.

Thank you for your reply. We certainly do not take any comments in a offensive manner, as we are seeking all of your thoughts, suggestions and opinions, good, bad or indifferent, with the utmost respect.

What the Lenders will allow for any actual appreciation will be a tremendous deciding factor on this very ambitious family venture.

Respectfully,

Al.

 

[Alexb2000]

I have been to the Cessna piston factory in Independence.

Spend a day at a facility like that and the challenge you are contemplating becomes more apparent (or at least it should).

Look at how hard it has been for Worpe 9 to be competitive starting with a 6-8 year old airframe.

 

[N747JB]

We've noticed that Nexair has done a like re-furb, that is incredible, on a 1982 Saratoga that has been for sale for quite some time now. Our thoughts is that the 300+k retail amount is why she still has not sold???


I know of a few Pilots that dream of having a new, modern looking A/C with all of the nice toys in it, just can't handle the price tag. Hopefully we can create that dream A/C that will allow these Pilots to live that dream.

Thanks again for your input, it is greatly appreciated/respected!

Happy/Safe Flying to you and yours!

Because airplane buyers and lenders don't see the value in a $300K Saratoga. I bought a 182Q 3 years ago, good paint, dual KX155's, needed interior, 2400TT, 400 on factory reman for $63K, I put in a 430W, new side glass and new interior and spent $17-18K just on those items. I didn't replace the headliner or all the plastic trim, the windshield was fairly new.
I guess what I'm getting at, is for $125K, which is the minimum I think you can create what you are proposing, many folks would rather buy a much newer airplane.
There was a company doing this type work on 210's a couple years ago, I don't know how that turned out, but 210's aren't in production anymore.

 

[bnt83]

Because airplane buyers and lenders don't see the value in a $300K Saratoga. I bought a 182Q 3 years ago, good paint, dual KX155's, needed interior, 2400TT, 400 on factory reman for $63K, I put in a 430W, new side glass and new interior and spent $17-18K just on those items. I didn't replace the headliner or all the plastic trim, the windshield was fairly new.
I guess what I'm getting at, is for $125K, which is the minimum I think you can create what you are proposing, many folks would rather buy a much newer airplane.
There was a company doing this type work on 210's a couple years ago, I don't know how that turned out, but 210's aren't in production anymore.

 

[bnt83]

You can buy a restart 182 (1996 and newer) for around $160k. Much better corrosion protection, already has a decent autopilot interor, paint etc.


http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail...+Piston/1998/Cessna/182S+Skylane/1642884.html

 

[sabraviation]

Because airplane buyers and lenders don't see the value in a $300K Saratoga. I bought a 182Q 3 years ago, good paint, dual KX155's, needed interior, 2400TT, 400 on factory reman for $63K, I put in a 430W, new side glass and new interior and spent $17-18K just on those items. I didn't replace the headliner or all the plastic trim, the windshield was fairly new.
I guess what I'm getting at, is for $125K, which is the minimum I think you can create what you are proposing, many folks would rather buy a much newer airplane.
There was a company doing this type work on 210's a couple years ago, I don't know how that turned out, but 210's aren't in production anymore.

Thank you!

Yes, I am familiar with one of the 210 conversion companies and sad to say that I'm pretty sure that they did not stick around and/or continue.

On another note, We are not expecting "100% financing", just want to minimize the down payment amount as much as possible by doing whatever it takes to stay in line with what the bank/s will allow for appreciation, based on the added features/up-grades/improvements.

There will obviously be some things on our list of up-grades that may possibly not get to happen, which is o.k.

Thank you again for all of your in-put!

Happy and Safe Landings!

 

[alfadog]

You might want to give us what you think are your total costs on just five of the biggest ticket items there. I think you get close to $150k pretty quickly.

 

[Skylane81E]

Not possible, I don't pay myself and I couldn't do it for the price you quote,

At least double your cost estimate, now look at what 200k will buy you. It's a lot more than a 50 year old Cessna dressed up with paint and an interior.


Really wish it wasn't so but...

 

[wabower]

How many announcements of these "legend" or "renaissance" projects have we seen over the years? How many have worked?

 

[Skylane81E]

The only one I have seen around are the Panther converted Navajos, and as I understand it they did not survive the flooding of their airport.

 

[wabower]

All of the Colemill conversions offered improved performance from engine upgrades, as opposed to a "powdered and pimped" version of the original model.

The only one I have seen around are the Panther converted Navajos, and as I understand it they did not survive the flooding of their airport.

 

[ronnieh]

Wayne, what performance gain/loss did you see on the Colemill Chieftains other than a loss of useful load? Props are heavier, and the winglets added weight. The ones I have flown gave up about 50 pounds. I never saw any performance gains and Colemill did not claim any for the Chieftain. The baby Navajos did pick up a little by gaining 25 HP per side.

And yes Skylane they are out of business and the airpark is closed. I heard that Mike Jones purchased the STC. Not sure if that is true. On another note Cornelia Fort Airpark was very interesting getting into and out of on a hot day.

 

[wabower]

I didn't ever fly a Chieftain (or want to) so can't answer your question. I spent 3-4 days per month in Nashville from '74-86, all at Cornelia, but at the time was more interested in the Beech and Cessna products including the 300 hp L-19 that Bill would let me fly occasionally.

Wayne, what performance gain/loss did you see on the Colemill Chieftains other than a loss of useful load? Props are heavier, and the winglets added weight. The ones I have flown gave up about 50 pounds. I never saw any performance gains and Colemill did not claim any for the Chieftain. The baby Navajos did pick up a little by gaining 25 HP per side.

And yes Skylane they are out of business and the airpark is closed. I heard that Mike Jones purchased the STC. Not sure if that is true. On another note Cornelia Fort Airpark was very interesting getting into and out of on a hot day.

 

[Skylane81E]

Wayne, what performance gain/loss did you see on the Colemill Chieftains other than a loss of useful load? Props are heavier, and the winglets added weight. The ones I have flown gave up about 50 pounds. I never saw any performance gains and Colemill did not claim any for the Chieftain. The baby Navajos did pick up a little by gaining 25 HP per side.

And yes Skylane they are out of business and the airpark is closed. I heard that Mike Jones purchased the STC. Not sure if that is true. On another note Cornelia Fort Airpark was very interesting getting into and out of on a hot day.

Our Chieftain has the Colemill tips, reports are it does help at altitude. Having heard a full conversion take off I can also report that the Q tip props do work for reducing the noise level.

 

[Skylane81E]

Why the 1963 F Model 182? Is this new enough to have the "wide tail?" If not step up to a newer. I also would check the UL of the plane, add a bunch or stuff and you may need a high gross weight, personally I would choose a P and add the Fresh Pick STC


Work to be performed:

New exterior paint with modern decal scheme, to include wheel pants- OK

Seats refurbished with fabric inserts and leather bolsters- OK

New interior plastics/head-liner carpet, etc- OK

New Ram's horn style yokes- buy newer plane and you don't need to bother, just referb them as needed

All push/pull levers replaced, possibly add a T-handle throttle quadrant, much like the new 182 JT-A now has- skip, just replace worn rod ends and skip the quadrant, certification costs will kill you as you will need to develop a STC

The addition of Micro Vortex Generators- ok

New glass if cannot be polished to like-new condition- ok

The application of the latest/best in sound/vibration dampening materials- skip, put a nice beefed up engine mount in and skip heavy sound deadening, include a set of good ANR headsets instead

All new door/window seals- ok

Major over-haul of power-plant and/or factory re-manufactured- ok

Complete Panel over-haul, to include "partial" glass avionics- ok

New tires- ok

Boom-Beam landing lights- ok

New ventilation system- skip,

New wing-tips (to be determined as to which ones), with strobes- wing tip landing lights

Rosin visors- o,

Full harness seat-belts- ok

Angle of attack indicator- ok

L.E.D. Panel lighting- ok

New prop- what prop?

We are currently re-searching having a more modern cowling done, much like the modern/sleek Lopresti Cardinal 177 Cowling. Expect several tens of thousands each for very minor gains



Look forward to reading your thoughts/opinions and suggestions! See above

 

[Ghery]

I have seen plenty of companies come and go in better markets trying to do this, all are gone, I wonder why?

I am in progress restoring a 48-C-170 and I'm already over average market. I am really prudent with my spending so we have 1 VHF, 1 transponder, intercom, new windows, paint, interior, and wing covering. Yet when you really try to spend money you can be very successful in doing that, but you won't recover it when you sell.

And what you don't see in this post is the quality of the work Tom puts into it. That C-170 will look better than new when he is finished.