Aeronca Champion - Best airplane to teach how to land?

FloridaPilot

FloridaPilot

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I got another buddy of mine into flying, (So far that is 3 people who are now students) told me today that stuck with me. He said: If you start out learning how to fly a tail wheel airplane you can land pretty much ANY airplane is this true? Never been in a tail wheel airplane before...maybe I will this weekend too? we will see. Do they help/improve your landings?
 
I first learned how to fly in a 7AC, it's the bedrock of flight, outside from a glider I can't think of a better way to build your foundation.

Also gave a ton of ab into instruction in tailwheels, I found those guys end up better pilots than my trike guys.
 
I wouldn't say it helps with your actual landing skills, but it gets your feet active and makes you a more precise pilot, improving your overall flying skills. Go out and get some training in a tailwheel, you'll love it!
 
Ryanb said:
I wouldn't say it helps with your actual landing skills...
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It will. It will force you to get that nose straight on landing, and bounces are much harder to deal with. It makes you more precise. The 7AC with its soft oleo gear is a handful in a crosswind, making you fly it until it's tied down. More good skills. And it will spin without any argument, too. Makes you pay for that skidding turn. Pretty vivid experiences.

The downside? It makes trikes boring after that.
 
Absolutely. Tricycle gear planes cover your mistakes and so are easier to land, whereas the demands of a taildragger will make you a better pilot. And most of the really interesting airplanes are taildraggers.
 
Ryanb said:
I wouldn't say it helps with your actual landing skills, but it gets your feet active and makes you a more precise pilot, improving your overall flying skills. Go out and get some training in a tailwheel, you'll love it!
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If you're good it shouldn't have your feet active, that's just a sign that you don't understand what the airplane is doing and what it's about to do, every action as a equal and...you know.

They don't mask crap flying like 172/152/PA28/etc do, always thought those planes made horrible trainers, right up there with picking a college based on which one was the easiest to pass.



Dan Thomas said:
It will. It will force you to get that nose straight on landing, and bounces are much harder to deal with. It makes you more precise. The 7AC with its soft oleo gear is a handful in a crosswind, making you fly it until it's tied down. More good skills. And it will spin without any argument, too. Makes you pay for that skidding turn. Pretty vivid experiences.

The downside? It makes trikes boring after that.
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That.
 
I took my first lesson, solo and PPL check in a Citabria. I instructed in both taildraggers and tricycles after that. I think it is true that someone who learns on a taildragger can hop in a tricycle and fly with little or no further instruction. The opposite is not true. On the other hand, I did find it was much easier to get the average student competent in crosswind conditions in a tricycle, so new pilots in areas with a lot of wind (like where I am now in NM) will probably have more flyable days with a tricycle.
 
James331 said:
If you're good it should have your feet active, that's just a sign that you don't understand what the airplane is doing and what it's about to do, every action as a equal and...you know.

They don't mask crap flying like 172/152/PA28/etc do, always thought those planes made horrible trainers, right up there with picking a college based on which one was the easiest to pass.
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Is that not what I stated in my first post?

Yes it does, it makes you a more precise pilot.
 
James331 said:
iPhone killin' me
-SHOULDN'T-
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Understood, but I disagree.

Stick and rudder skills are far more pronounced in TW airplanes vs. any tricycle geared. Keeping your feet still, doesn't mean you're not understanding the airplane, IMO it means you don't understand the airplane.
 
The most fun I've had in my short life, has been flying airplanes. The taildraggers just added to the fun when I found that I could land one
in a crosswind, with no worries. I don't know if taildraggers in general make for better pilots or not, but most of the airplanes that will, are taildraggers.
 
Ryanb said:
Understood, but I disagree.

Stick and rudder skills are far more pronounced in TW airplanes vs. any tricycle geared. Keeping your feet still, doesn't mean you're not understanding the airplane, IMO it means you don't understand the airplane.
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Not still, but far from active.

When you see a new Tailwheel pilot landing, especially one taught by a new Tailwheel CFI, it's like watching a fish try to swim down the runway with all the movement in that tail.

Watch a higher time, more experienced Tailwheel guy, less movement and the movements a much smaller.

It's like getting into a car with sensitive steering and being "active" on the steering wheel, car start going to the right of the lane, left steering wheel, oh now we need right steering wheel to keep to from going too far right, etc.
 
dooooo ittttt....

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Eh, learned in a C150, didn't have any trouble transitioning to a friends T-craft and another w/ a Cub. They're all fun, I'd take either one. Even a Stearman was no trouble, fun but not the ideal platform for a longer XC.
 
It, like nearly any light tailwheel plane will teach you what your feet are for, to control the plane in the air and on the ground. It'll teach you the basics of flying which are building blocks for flying nearly anything else. You will have to be aware of the wind and what it's doing to the plane, at 1220# gross, you will feel it.
It's not fast, or very comfortable on long legs, fly it for what it is, a basic inexpensive fun plane. It's great on a summer evening with the side window open and your arm hanging out, looking at the world going by at 75 mph. It'll slip like heck and come out of the sky without any problems. It doesn't do anything fast, except maybe a groundloop if you're not on top of things. But it's not a groundloop king, it's very docile.

Here's what mine used to look like, this was it's last flight before restoration.

 
Most flying fun was getting TW Endorsement in a Champ. Second most fun was the logbook entry for a B-17 (inflight only, no landing:))

Cheers
 
James331 said:
Not still, but far from active.

When you see a new Tailwheel pilot landing, especially one taught by a new Tailwheel CFI, it's like watching a fish try to swim down the runway with all the movement in that tail.

Watch a higher time, more experienced Tailwheel guy, less movement and the movements a much smaller.

It's like getting into a car with sensitive steering and being "active" on the steering wheel, car start going to the right of the lane, left steering wheel, oh now we need right steering wheel to keep to from going too far right, etc.
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That's true, however the point of my post was that generally speaking, transitioning from trike to TW, as the OP's post suggested, requires greater rudder control than what they're normally used to which inturn makes the pilot more precise and I think that's the general consensus as well. Maybe it's just me, who knows?
 
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If I had ready access to a hangar, I'd be in the classic rag wing TW camp in a heartbeat. I don't have an opinion as to the benefit of flying a TW airplane, as I've never flown one, but for the type of flying I enjoy/mission of my GA flying, they fit my requirements the best.
 
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Did 5.6 tailwheel in a champ. It didn't seem any harder to land than a 172 in a 3pt landing. Wheel landings I'm not so good at and couldn't figure out why I'd use that(except for fun) when a 3pt works so well even in a crosswind.
 
Part owner in a 7ECA and love it. I picked it up pretty quickly, its been more of a process improving my confidence in it than my competence.
 
Ryanb said:
I wouldn't say it helps with your actual landing skills, but it gets your feet active and makes you a more precise pilot, improving your overall flying skills. Go out and get some training in a tailwheel, you'll love it!
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Yes sir...sounds like a good idea. It really does look like fun. Ive seen a CFI at my home airport with one I will ask him what he charges.

bluerooster said:
The most fun I've had in my short life, has been flying airplanes. The taildraggers just added to the fun when I found that I could land one
in a crosswind, with no worries. I don't know if taildraggers in general make for better pilots or not, but most of the airplanes that will, are taildraggers.
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Me too!!

champ driver said:
It, like nearly any light tailwheel plane will teach you what your feet are for, to control the plane in the air and on the ground. It'll teach you the basics of flying which are building blocks for flying nearly anything else. You will have to be aware of the wind and what it's doing to the plane, at 1220# gross, you will feel it.
It's not fast, or very comfortable on long legs, fly it for what it is, a basic inexpensive fun plane. It's great on a summer evening with the side window open and your arm hanging out, looking at the world going by at 75 mph. It'll slip like heck and come out of the sky without any problems. It doesn't do anything fast, except maybe a groundloop if you're not on top of things. But it's not a groundloop king, it's very docile.

Here's what mine used to look like, this was it's last flight before restoration.

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She is a beauty!! Do you think controls are more sensitive in it than say a Cessna 172?
 
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FloridaPilot said:
Do you think controls are more sensitive in it than say a Cessna 172?
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Not so much more senstive as they are more authoritative. You will find that a Champ's rudder has way more authority than a 172's, making it slip at least twice as aggressively. A slip in a 172 is barely a slip.
 
Fearless Tower said:
A Stearman can be downright miserable on a long x-country.
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fr

Flew my bud's Stearman from Montgomery AL to Columbus GA at around 2000' I think. It was cool knowing that these things were flying around this area during WW2. In fact, we flew just to the north of the real Tuskegee Army Airfield, now a privately owned airport. Top pic 1943, center 1950, bottom 2006.

upload_2016-12-7_21-40-52.png upload_2016-12-7_21-38-22.png
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[QUOTE



She is a beauty!! Do you think controls are more sensitive in it than say a Cessna 172?[/QUOTE]

Something like a Pitts would probably be more sensitive, but not the Champ. The rudder is light and more effective, the elevator is about neutral and the ailerons are a bit more heavy.
With it's effective rudder it'll slip real nice to bleed off speed and/or altitude. You'll see and feel exactly what adverse aileron yaw really is and how to keep the ball centered. It will wallow and bounce around in turbulence, the wing loading is so low that you'll feel every up and down draft. The oleo gear is soft and on wheel landings you can have the wheels on the ground, but not yet be down.
Like I said, it's great fun on a summer evening when you're not going anywhere fast. Slips are great fun and you can fly from either seat if you like. Gross is only 1220# on the 7AC so you have to watch that the pilots aren't too big.
 
mscard88 said:
fr

Flew my bud's Stearman from Montgomery AL to Columbus GA at around 2000' I think. It was cool knowing that these things were flying around this area during WW2. In fact, we flew just to the north of the real Tuskegee Army Airfield, now a privately owned airport. Top pic 1943, center 1950, bottom 2006.

View attachment 49637 View attachment 49635
View attachment 49636
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That is a pretty cool part of history, can you land on the airfield? Still in operation or is it a museum?
 
mscard88 said:
Eh, learned in a C150, didn't have any trouble transitioning to a friends T-craft and another w/ a Cub. They're all fun, I'd take either one. Even a Stearman was no trouble, fun but not the ideal platform for a longer XC.
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+1. No Stearman time, but TW time and no trouble with the transition.
 
So today I'm going to meet up with someone with a Champ, I haven't seen one before so all of this will be a first for me. I'm excited for it. :)
 
I've only flown a couple of Champs, but had 300+ hours in a Chief. Good fun airplane with 75hp in it. I enjoyed flying it, but it maxed out at 85mph. We marked a spot for the trim and you could pull the power back on downwind, pull the trim to that spot and let the nose drop. It would hit 65mph and hold that speed until landing.

I think any tailwheel plane help you become a better pilot. I'm a little biased though. When calculating my hours, I found 7/8 of my time is in tailwheel planes. As far as the Champ being the best to teach you landings, it's good, but not the best. Not the best because it's almost too easy! Keep the nose straight and she's a simple plane to fly and land.
 
I learned TW in a Super Chief 85HP. The Arenocas are definitely rudder airplanes.
 
Lowflynjack said:
I've only flown a couple of Champs, but had 300+ hours in a Chief. Good fun airplane with 75hp in it. I enjoyed flying it, but it maxed out at 85mph. We marked a spot for the trim and you could pull the power back on downwind, pull the trim to that spot and let the nose drop. It would hit 65mph and hold that speed until landing.

I think any tailwheel plane help you become a better pilot. I'm a little biased though. When calculating my hours, I found 7/8 of my time is in tailwheel planes. As far as the Champ being the best to teach you landings, it's good, but not the best. Not the best because it's almost too easy! Keep the nose straight and she's a simple plane to fly and land.
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Thing with the champ is it has all that you need to teach a proper foundation, and it doesn't mask crap, if you build a solid foundation in the 7AC, a A185F, Pawnee, DHC, etc shouldn't be a issue with a couple fam flights.
 
I wish somebody would've told me before I learned in a 172 and Piper. I will get some hours in then I will do gliders for awhile.
 
Lowflynjack said:
I've only flown a couple of Champs, but had 300+ hours in a Chief. Good fun airplane with 75hp in it. I enjoyed flying it, but it maxed out at 85mph. We marked a spot for the trim and you could pull the power back on downwind, pull the trim to that spot and let the nose drop. It would hit 65mph and hold that speed until landing.

I think any tailwheel plane help you become a better pilot. I'm a little biased though. When calculating my hours, I found 7/8 of my time is in tailwheel planes. As far as the Champ being the best to teach you landings, it's good, but not the best. Not the best because it's almost too easy! Keep the nose straight and she's a simple plane to fly and land.
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In your opinion what is the best airplane to teach landings?

The guy I was going to meet up with wasn't feeling too well so we will reschedule. What is the useful load on a champ, I'm not the lightest person in the world. I'm about 230 right now.
 
FloridaPilot said:
In your opinion what is the best airplane to teach landings?

The guy I was going to meet up with wasn't feeling too well so we will reschedule. What is the useful load on a champ, I'm not the lightest person in the world. I'm about 230 right now.
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I think tailwheel teaches you to use the rudder more and highlights the importance of staying on the centerline and straight. Nosewheel planes tend to forgive bad habits. I think the Champ is a good trainer. I think the Luscombe is trickier to land, so if you learn in one you'll be able to fly most of the small tailwheel planes. I spent 300 hours in a Decathlon, then jumped in a Luscombe and was amazed at how much more responsive it was, especially on rudder.

Now the other part of a Champ, or similar low-powered tailwheel plane, is that it will teach you that horsepower won't save you if you don't have it. It teaches you when you're headed toward trees and looking like you're not going to clear them, you need to keep the nose down and build speed. In my Luscombe crash, I had a Cirrus pilot in the next seat who decided to pull back on the stick to "help" me over the trees. He used up any energy I had. He admitted it, and said he panicked.

I believe the average Champ is around 700lbs with 1200 gross, so with 10 gallons of fuel, you and a 200lb guy would be legal, but you won't feel like you're strapped to a rocket!
 
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