Advice

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I have a question I was going to email to Dr. Bruce but, thought I would throw it out for opinions. First, I have no stake in this at all.
If you knew for a fact that a pilot, who is exercising the privileges of commercial pilot, is a substance abuser what would you do? The substance is alcohol and s/he consumes a substantial amount EVERY day. I do not know if he flies with any alcohol in his blood but is certainly hung over on an early morning flight.
I am not concerned with any legal obligation but, what about the ethics of the situation?
 
I would think the ethics of it say turn him in or tell someone. I mean, how would you feel, if you knew about this, and today he crashed and killed 300 people because he is drunk or hungover?
 
I'd talk to someone. As Andrew said, he's endangering the lives of others. MYOB on things like this died with Kitty Genovese.
 
Depends on your relationship with the pilot.

Close friend? I would talk to them directly and tell them to get help or you will end their flying privileges. Offer to help them follow through if you feel up to it. But absolutely follow through with turning them in if they refuse or bail out of whatever program they go with.

Someone you barely know? Either turn them in or confront them with an ultimatum and then turn them in.

The adage "snitches get stitches" is great for high school thugs, but among adults in a profession/hobby that demands a great deal of mental attention, anything else is irresponsible.
 
Is this an assumption or rumor, or have you witnessed regular over-the-top behavior?

How would you define "too much"?
 
The OP can't keep his pronouns straight. As such his judgement and observation skills are in question.:lol:
0luke1 said:
Is this an assumption or rumor, or have you witnessed regular over-the-top behavior?

How would you define "too much"?
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Sorry about the pronoun. Should have just stayed with "he" since that is the proper pronoun when gender is unknown or unspecified.
Not rumor, eye witness, multiple times. It is not much of a secrete in what is a small community of commercial pilots.
2-3 six packs, or 1-2 pints of spirits in an afternoon/evening. We are acquainted but not friends. He is of the "old school" and does not see this behavior as a problem.
Frankly, I am leaning strongly towards the advice of climb sink
 
Unregistered said:
Sorry about the pronoun. Should have just stayed with "he" since that is the proper pronoun when gender is unknown or unspecified.
Not rumor, eye witness, multiple times. It is not much of a secrete in what is a small community of commercial pilots.
2-3 six packs, or 1-2 pints of spirits in an afternoon/evening. We are acquainted but not friends. He is of the "old school" and does not see this behavior as a problem.
Frankly, I am leaning strongly towards the advice of climb sink
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Hope you're the only one that gets hurt if/when this guy does something stupid in/with a plane.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Let's turn everyone in then no one can get hurt in an airplane.
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Because everyone is pounding multiple 6-packs of beer and/or bottles of booze every day just like this guy is.

Seriously? We're talking about a PILOT getting drunk every damned day, and you jump all the way from this one incident to WELL THEN JUST TURN EVERYONE IN FOR EVERYTHING! What are you, 12?

But to answer your question, yes - if every pilot I saw was doing that then you bet your ass I would be one busy little snitch.
 
Unregistered,

You pose a very tough case. Whatever you do you're likely to be damned for it. The difficulty is that the person with the problem either doesn't see his drinking as a problem or flat out refuses to admit it is. Trying to coax someone into treatment he doesn't think he needs is akin to herding cats. At the very least any action you take will turn him, and possibly some others, against you. At best, if he's flying a 135 operation, finking on him could well save innocent lives. Assuming he's carrying passengers I would feel no guilt in advising the feds to keep a close eye on him.

Disclaimer: Not a doctor. Just one who has had to deal with alcoholics. Tough nut to crack. :dunno:
 
The people at Al-Anon have tons of experience in dealing with alcohol dependent behavior. It is difficult to determine the boundaries between being a supportive friend and one who is enabling someone who needs help. Although many of these groups are aimed at the family of alcohol (or drug) dependent loved ones, they have precepts and guidelines that help to identify where boundaries can be set.

http://www.al-anon.org/local-meetings
You can also call 1-888-4AL-ANON (1-888-425-2666) Monday thru Friday, 8 am- 6 pm ET, for meeting information.
 
Thanks Norman, it is a dilemma. I have pondered for quite sometime as to what to do if anything. I do not want to get too detailed on a public forum but, yes on the passengers. I was just curious as to what the consensus was on this board. Do not want to get a s*** storm started, just looking for some opinions. To climbnsink, a student or even a private pilot may very well see this different. Many commercial pilots have concern for the people that trust theirs and their loved ones lives to us. This is not about the pilot. I have little concern about him.
To the mods, if this gets out of hand please just delete the entire thread. Again, thanks for the replies.
 
Al-Anon would be of little use to a person that does not think he has a problem. It will take intervention by officials to have any affect. Even that is quite iffy in my opinion.
 
Unregistered said:
Al-Anon would be of little use to a person that does not think he has a problem. It will take intervention by officials to have any affect. Even that is quite iffy in my opinion.
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I'm sorry, I did not make it clear.

Al-Anon is not AA. It is a different organization for those who are family or friends of someone who has a problem with drugs or alcohol. In other words, Al-Anon is for you. This group can help with how you can handle the drinking problem of someone else. Should you intervene? How to intervene? How serious is the problem? How is the problem affecting the other person? How is the problem affecting you?

Alcoholics Anonymous is for those who want to find answers to their problem with alcohol or drugs. AA is for your friend (acquaintance) if he is able to see that.
 
Peggy, read my posts. We are not friends or family. In fact as I pointed out, my concern is not about him. If he wants to bore a hole in the ground it is fine with me as long as no one else is hurt.
 
How about, before getting his certificate in jeopardy, you talk to the pilot in question? tell him/her your observations and concerns. He/she might be looking for an excuse to seek help. If the guy/gal takes it to heart, you have helped somebody out without feeling like a rat, and if they get belligerent or tell you to mind your own business, you can rat away with a clear conscience that you at least tried to help first.
 
Unregistered said:
Thanks Norman, it is a dilemma. I have pondered for quite sometime as to what to do if anything. I do not want to get too detailed on a public forum but, yes on the passengers. I was just curious as to what the consensus was on this board. Do not want to get a s*** storm started, just looking for some opinions. To climbnsink, a student or even a private pilot may very well see this different. Many commercial pilots have concern for the people that trust theirs and their loved ones lives to us. This is not about the pilot. I have little concern about him.
To the mods, if this gets out of hand please just delete the entire thread. Again, thanks for the replies.
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I'm a former pro. If his boss and passengers haven't noticed then it is none of our business. If you have to tell somebody man up and talk to the guy. If that doesn't get you satisfaction talk to his boss. Don't go to the feds that is the chicken**** way.
 
I still don't want to get too specific. The situation is way past the talking point. This person will not even entertain the thought he has a problem. Some good points were made. That was what I was looking for. In the end, I have to decide whether to do anything. Quite frankly, even if I thought I should, I wouldn't have a clue as to who or how. As I said in my original post I had considered a private talk with Dr. Bruce but, it is not his problem.
Thanks to all.
 
Unregistered said:
I have a question I was going to email to Dr. Bruce but, thought I would throw it out for opinions. First, I have no stake in this at all.
If you knew for a fact that a pilot, who is exercising the privileges of commercial pilot, is a substance abuser what would you do? The substance is alcohol and s/he consumes a substantial amount EVERY day. I do not know if he flies with any alcohol in his blood but is certainly hung over on an early morning flight.
I am not concerned with any legal obligation but, what about the ethics of the situation?
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And with what professional training and certifications did you use to diagnose this pilot with?

I take it you have a MD after your name, took his history, took him to a proper setting and evaluated this individual?

If the answer to that is NO, then you asking if you should slander this man, because thats what you would be doing.

I vote if you have so much concern that you post this here, nut up and go tell this guy how you "feel" I'd say 50/50 you get punched in the face.
 
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Chit, you are just a regular A-hole. It does not take an MD to realize that any person, pilot or not that is drinking 2-3 six packs or 1-2 pints of spirits EVERY day has a problem. Understand this person does not deny that he drinks this much, just that it does not matter. As I have said over and over this is past the talking stage. Of course that would be the first step. That was exhausted years ago. Climbnsink, nobody said anything about the Feds. Just looking for an opinion.
Chit, your attitude is the reason it took me several months to even look into what a consensus might be among professional pilots.
Moderators, please delete this entire thread.
 
  1. Cease doing anything that allows the alcoholic to continue their current lifestyle.
  2. Do nothing to 'help' the alcoholic that he could or would be doing himself if he were not drinking.
  3. Stop lying, covering up, or making excuses for the alcoholic, such as 'calling in sick' for him.
  4. Do not take on responsibilites or duties that rightfully belong to the alcoholic.
  5. Do not give or loan the alcoholic money.
  6. Don't 'rescue' the alcoholic by bailing him out of jail or paying his fines.
  7. Do not scold, argue or plead with the alcoholic.
  8. Do not react to his latest misadventures, so that he can respond to your reaction rather than his actions.
  9. Do not try to drink with the alcoholic.
  10. Set boundaries, don't make threats, and stick to them.
  11. Carefully explain to the alcoholic the boundaries that you have set, and explain that the boundaries are for you, not for him.
 
I can be a azz hole when some "new school" soft shoed sensitive type talks about destroying someones ticket and possible career (as you said he is a CPL), just because he doesn't live his life like you do.


Look if this guy is FLYING drunk then that's a nother matter.

SO if you believe he is flying drunk (over .04 BAC) coordinate with law enforcement and have him checked. HOWEVER if you do this have the sack to stand there in clear view of everyone and own up to calling the cops on him.
 
OP, it sounds like you've already talked to the guy in question, since you're so certain that he's defensive and doesn't have a problem.

In that case, rather than call the FAA, call his airline/operator. once you do that, you've reminded them of their responsibility (they're supposed to be doing drug/alcohol testing anyway).
 
TMetzinger said:
In that case, rather than call the FAA, call his airline/operator. once you do that, you've reminded them of their responsibility (they're supposed to be doing drug/alcohol testing anyway).
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Do whatever it takes to keep others safe, even if eventually that means talking to the FAA.
 
If the OP writes to FAA, they will demand an immediate random urine (within 24 hours of the certified letter signature).

EVERY guy with an alcohol problem is defensive and doesn't believe he/she has a problem. If I suspected someone and he/she answered, "oh, that might be something to think about...."
or, "well how much might be a problem?"
or, ....any of a number of intelligent responses....


I would know that the person likely did NOT have a problem. But the hard wall response-->that's pretty universal among those who really do have an issue.
 
bullwinkle said:
How about, before getting his certificate in jeopardy, you talk to the pilot in question? tell him/her your observations and concerns. He/she might be looking for an excuse to seek help. If the guy/gal takes it to heart, you have helped somebody out without feeling like a rat, and if they get belligerent or tell you to mind your own business, you can rat away with a clear conscience that you at least tried to help first.
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ah yes, common sense. . . if you know he is flying humans for hire- and you know he is drinking to excess and will not pass the Dr Bruce feeling up your liver test, then if you know the person well enough to see them drinking on a regular basis - then you know them well enough to mention YOUR concerns - not about him - just 'gee, I am worried seeing you drinking all the time, do you feel ok when you fly?"

And if he busts you, you can bust him.

What is more likely is the enabling co-dependent reaction . . . "I'm ok, I'm not drunk when I fly, I know the rules, its just to relax. I will try to cut back so its not so obvious. . . . etc etc etc."

Then you will accomplish nothing since he will simply take the alcoholism private .. .. and you will not know any longer.

This is why alcoholism and dependence is so insidious.
 
If I don't know who you're talking about, I know one just like him. Guy set's his alarm on his watch to tell him when to quit drinking. A 24 pack in a day is just a day, I've seen him down 2 18 packs and then quit when the alarm goes off. More than once the guy in the other seat has told him to go to the bathroom and call in sick because they plane wasn't moving otherwise due to his smell. Last medical the nurse took his BP and told him to "get your BP down then come back". Has a scrip for medication that is a big NO NO. I've seen it with his name on it with my own two eyes. I told him "You'll go to jail if they find out you've flown under the influence of that". I've just STFU to date because he's a medical or so away from being revoked. We have friends in common and discussed what to do, my other friend thinks he'd be suicidal if he loses his flying gig.
 
Not OP here. Different Unreg.

I'm a recovering alcoholic. I don't have any advice to you OP but maybe my perspective might be helpful.

I drank about the same amount as the pilot in question. Even though I was not drunk when I went to work in the mornings, there is no question that being hungover in effected my work (my job does not involve people's lives, I'm just a desk jockey). My mind was cloudy, my mood sour, I was forgetful, etc. The thing about being constantly hungover is this: it becomes a part of life and you don't realize how impaired you are. The quality of my work now and then is day and night. I'm actually surprised I wasn't fired.

Next, had you told me a year ago I had a drinking problem, I would have told you you were insane. I wouldn't have listened. I believe every person with an addiction has to come to recovery in their own way. At least that's true for all the addicts I know. That said, it was a confluence of events, divorce, realizing I wasn't going to pass a medical and a few others that I finally had my "what the f*** am I doing to myself" moment. It was then that I woke up and went into rehab, which turned out to be the best thing I've done for myself in ages. Maybe, just maybe an FAA action might be this guy's "what the f***" moment, or maybe not. Who knows. Also keep in mind he has the HIMS route available to him which means he can work while he sobers himself up. Something not available to me as a prospective student. I have to prove two years sobriety.

Anyway, perspective from someone in recovery for what it's worth.
 
What Dr. Bruce said. Those with a serious problem are in denial in capital letters. If you even suggest they have a drinking problem they are immediately in the defense mode and frequently have rather nasty responses to the suggestion they seek medical help to overcome it. If the guy is flying 135 he should already be in a random testing program. Perhaps he has learned how to skirt the testing.

So, this begs the question of if you knew a neighbor who was constantly driving under the influence would you advise law enforcement before he took out some innocent people? Drugs and alcohol have become a major problem in our society. We don't need to encounter them on the road or flying an airplane.
 
Again, let me reiterate. I did not accuse anybody of flying drunk as some have said. I do know that most reasonable people would consider the amount consumed to be a problem. I did not imply that I was considering doing anything, just asking what others would do, if anything. To the two or three A-holes, you did not appear to read and understand the posts. Remember, I was not making assumptions, this person does not deny he consumes this much, it just is not a problem to him. He thinks any pilot worth his salt should be able to drink all evening until passing out and be ready to fly at 8:00 AM sharp. Three six packs is just to relax. Frankly I have no idea how much he drinks on days he does not have a trip scheduled the next day.
First, thank you Dr. Bruce for replying. I did not feel right asking you this kind of question on open forum. That was why I had considered a private email to you. Your reply was enlightening.
Tim, you are partly correct. However there are a lot of commercial operations with passengers without drug and alcohol testing, this is one of those.
Peggy, I give up on trying to explain that al-anon has no role here.
Comanche, you have scored an almost direct hit on the situation. You and Dr. Bruce together have pretty much summed up the situation.
Recovering alcoholic, thanks for the perspective. I suspect this is close to this situation.
To the second unregistered guest. I do not think it has gotten this far yet. Also, this is a single pilot operation.
The main problem, even if I wanted to pursue this, I actually don't know how. Again, just looking for opinions as to what others might do. Thanks for all of the positive suggestions, to the others, oh well.
I do hope a mod will make this whole thing go away, please.
 
Here's the thing: you reporting will not cause him to lose his ticket. It will cause the FAA to investigate, then if he has a problem, well, he has a problem.

You have no power to take anything from him. If he's a drunk, then the faa will deal with that. If your report is unfounded, then that will be determined as well.

So, ask yourself this question: would you let your mom/wife/daughter/son fly with this guy when he's hung over?
 
Unregistered said:
Peggy, read my posts. We are not friends or family. In fact as I pointed out, my concern is not about him. If he wants to bore a hole in the ground it is fine with me as long as no one else is hurt.
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It is a dilemma. But there may be innocent lives at stake either in the air or on the ground. Although I would not want to be a jerk, I would probably let his bosses know if you don't want to confront him. Or, let the FAA investigate. If they find nothing, no problem. But you would have done the right thing to protect others either in the air or on the ground. I would hate to have my loved ones or friends die because of a pilot who is drunk or hungover and cannot be a safe PIC. Not to be cliche, but what part of IM SAFE doesn't he understand? Even though he may not be hauling passengers, he may be a danger to either pilots or folks on the ground. Mid air collisions, ground crashes causing death or injury do happen. He is being selfish and stupid with their actions. Let your conscience be your guide. Not us. If it were me in this dilemma, I would put in a report.
 
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Contract pilot flying part 91 is one example. Bound to be others.
 
All you have to decide is what your reaction would be if you saw his aircraft in a crumpled heap of body parts and airplane parts on the news tomorrow morning and if you could live with yourself saying nothing. That's 100% your call. Some people, it's none of their business and they feel his employers are adults and should have seen it or been actively monitoring for it. Other people couldn't live with the innocent dead or injured people on their conscience. You get to choose the kind of person you are.
 
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