Advice, please -- Whom Shall We Sue? (Non-Av)

Jay Honeck said:
Type 1 is like we get -- just a printout with a name, and a cc number. We pay 15% to Expedia for those -- AND WE COLLECT THE MONEY AT CHECK IN.

Type 2 is prepaid to Expedia. They do the collection from the customer up front, upon making the reservation. We do not solicit or accept reservations of that type from Expedia -- or any other booking engine. (The last thing I want is to be waiting for a check from Expedia!)
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Can the customer tell the difference between the two?
 
Rndmtrvlr said:
Expedia says on their website that except for the special negotiated prices (for which they charge your card up front and then pay the hotel) all reservations are subject to the terms and conditions of the hotel or other travel partner. There is nothing "unethical" in determining your policy with regard to Expedia reservations and then sticking to it.
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There are three parties involved. The issue I'm discussing is between Expedia and Jay. In that situation Expedia is not living up to their part of the bargain as you quote from the marketing material. At this point Jay has 2 ethical options. 1: Quit doing business with Expedia. 2: Accept doing business with Expedia under the reality of what is and fully honor all commitments he makes to the customer. To "Walk" a customer who had a reservation because you don't like the way Expedia does business and overbooked because it may not pay I consider unethical, yes.
 
Steve Foley said:
Jay,

Back in the 90s, I worked for a consumer products manufacturer. We sold to Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Target, Bradlees, Caldor, and a handful of others. We had a process called Over-billing, where we would add a certain amount to each invoice in anticipation of chargebacks.

All retailers issue chargebacks. K-mart was the worst that we dealt with. They would 'fine' us $50 if the goods arrived on a pallet with a scuff mark on it. $50 if a barcode label was missing from a box, $50 if their computer system didn't know what the barcode was, $50 if we over-shipped. $50 if we under-shipped.

We once shipped them a trailer loaded with 1000 cartons without barcode labels on them. They kept the product ($14/box) but charged us back $50,000 for missing barcode labels.

We would keep track of the overbilling, and when they exceeded our balance with chargebacks, we would increase the price to account for it. If they refused the price increase (like Sears did) we would stop selling to them.

In reality, this affects nothing, but if you've made an adjustment in the Expedia pricing, you simply keep track of how much you've accrued because you haven't been screwed.

It's only a glass half-full/empty analysis, but it may make you feel better about doing business with Expedia.
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Excellent idea. And we've already instituted it. You have solved my problem -- thanks.
 
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Jay Honeck said:
Okay, thanks for the clarification. THIS IS A HUGE ISSUE -- ALL PLEASE READ THIS!

The thing y'all must understand (and it's something I should have pointed out earlier) is that there are TWO TYPES of Expedia reservations. (Just to make this even more sickeningly complex!)

Type 1 is like we get -- just a printout with a name, and a cc number. We pay 15% to Expedia for those -- AND WE COLLECT THE MONEY AT CHECK IN.

Type 2 is prepaid to Expedia. They do the collection from the customer up front, upon making the reservation. We do not solicit or accept reservations of that type from Expedia -- or any other booking engine. (The last thing I want is to be waiting for a check from Expedia!)

So....I think I now understand the angry response to some of my statements! Some of you guys were thinking I was not going to fully honor the "Type 2" reservations. Obviously, that would have been a "bad thing", and I now understand the confusion.

Rest assured -- if you pre-pay for a reservation, no matter what the source, you will never be "walked" here -- ever. Also rest assured, we do not charge for reservations up-front, so if any booking engine you use tells you that we do, they are lying.

(Yes, we've had people claim that they were told by on-line agents -- who guests sometimes call -- that they were being charged up-front for a reservation with us. Like I say, on-line booking companies are as loosey-goosey as it gets.)
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I don't care which type of reservation it is really. I make a reservation with your hotel and you respond, I hold you responsible for having a room for me, not Expedia. I don't really care that Expedia f-ed you. I've been f-ed plenty in my life. If someone f-s me I don't do business with them anymore. You make a reservation you gave me your word, if your word is no good I can't be bothered doing business. That's just the way I am.
 
Henning said:
There are three parties involved. The issue I'm discussing is between Expedia and Jay. In that situation Expedia is not living up to their part of the bargain as you quote from the marketing material. At this point Jay has 2 ethical options. 1: Quit doing business with Expedia. 2: Accept doing business with Expedia under the reality of what is and fully honor all commitments he makes to the customer. To "Walk" a customer who had a reservation because you don't like the way Expedia does business and overbooked because it may not pay I consider unethical, yes.
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Please read my post about the two types of Expedia reservations. We're talking about Type 1 (not-prepaid) reservations, and treating them EXACTLY the same way that the chains have done for years.
 
Henning said:
There are three parties involved. The issue I'm discussing is between Expedia and Jay. In that situation Expedia is not living up to their part of the bargain as you quote from the marketing material. At this point Jay has 2 ethical options. 1: Quit doing business with Expedia. 2: Accept doing business with Expedia under the reality of what is and fully honor all commitments he makes to the customer. To "Walk" a customer who had a reservation because you don't like the way Expedia does business and overbooked because it may not pay I consider unethical, yes.
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Well said Henning

Jay Honeck said:
Excellent idea. And we've already instituted it.
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That is how you handle it Jay. You keep all this emotion and fire out of it and you adjust your Expedia pricing so you maintain whatever your desired profit is.

You most certainly don't go on the internet and BASH chain hotels and BASH Expedia. That's bad business and it makes you look bad, not them.

You don't stick it to your customer either. If someone booked through Expedia like it or not they are your customer. Don't sell their room. You say you're better then the chains so BE better. Make it known your policies are CUSTOMER friendly - and you can do that without bashing your competitors. If someone asks why your Expedia price is higher then your website price you can explain why.

The best way for a business to turn me off is to spend their time bashing their competitors instead of marketing their products. It's a desperate move and it doesn't work.

Jay Honeck said:
Please read my post about the two types of Expedia reservations. We're talking about Type 1 (not-prepaid) reservations, and treating them EXACTLY the same way that the chains have done for years.
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Jay I don't care what "reservation method" was used. I don't have hours to sit here and figure out how to book a hotel. I generally spend less than 10 minutes from looking for a hotel to buying one. Hell most of the time I just go onto Priceline and just name a price for a general region. I've NEVER BEEN WALKED. It's NOT as common as you claim.

You're constantly saying you're better then the chain. But you're sure not acting like it. Now you claim you're going to do what the chains do. THINK BACK TO YOUR MODEL. Pulling the same stupid **** you claim the chains do IS NOT THE BUSINESS MODEL you claim to have.

Be a smart business man. Figure out if you need Expedia or don't need them and adjust your prices with them so you maintain profitable. Don't **** over the customers coming from them. If you do that, you are NOT BETTER THEN THE CHAINS.
 
tonycondon said:
i always figured that when i submitted my credit card number for a reservation that i was pre-paying and if i didn't show up i would be charged.
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That's what everyone wants you to believe.

What we do is pre-authorize your card when you make a reservation -- just like the gas pump at the FBO does. If the pre-auth works, you've got a reservation. If not, you don't.

You don't actually pay anything until you arrive.

With the reservation in question, we pre-auth'd the card number when we received it from Expedia, and it worked fine. We then turned away dozens -- perhaps hundreds -- of guests, thinking that we had a guaranteed payment for those rooms.

When we charged the card for the no-show, it was reversed by the credit card company, when the guest reported the card as stolen. Expedia did not stand behind the reservation.

Our loss, our education.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Please read my post about the two types of Expedia reservations. We're talking about Type 1 (not-prepaid) reservations, and treating them EXACTLY the same way that the chains have done for years.
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As I said, it doesn't matter which reservation. So, you're going to start treating people like the chains you complain about. That's disrespectful to yourself. Just stick to your ethics and quit doing business with Expedia if you don't like the way they do business. Always treat the customer right. Trust that good business attracts good business. I know car dealers that always dealt ethically and fairly. They never got rich, but they've been making a living in the same neighborhood for 40 years.
 
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jesse said:
Well said Henning


That is how you handle it Jay. You keep all this emotion and fire out of it and you adjust your Expedia pricing so you maintain whatever your desired profit is.

You most certainly don't go on the internet and BASH chain hotels and BASH Expedia. That's bad business and it makes you look bad, not them.

You don't stick it to your customer either. If someone booked through Expedia like it or not they are your customer. Don't sell their room. You say you're better then the chains so BE better. Make it known your policies are CUSTOMER friendly - and you can do that without bashing your competitors. If someone asks why your Expedia price is higher then your website price you can explain why.

The best way for a business to turn me off is to spend their time bashing their competitors instead of marketing their products. It's a desperate move and it doesn't work.


Jay I don't care what "reservation method" was used. I don't have hours to sit here and figure out how to book a hotel. I generally spend less than 10 minutes from looking for a hotel to buying one. Hell most of the time I just go onto Priceline and just name a price for a general region. I've NEVER BEEN WALKED. It's NOT as common as you claim.

You're constantly saying you're better then the chain. But you're sure not acting like it. Now you claim you're going to do what the chains do. THINK BACK TO YOUR MODEL. Pulling the same stupid **** you claim the chains do IS NOT THE BUSINESS MODEL you claim to have.

Be a smart business man. Figure out if you need Expedia or don't need them and adjust your prices with them so you maintain profitable. Don't **** over the customers coming from them. If you do that, you are NOT BETTER THEN THE CHAINS.
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Excellent post, Jesse, and I have done a lot of soul searching over this. This whole situation has been so unfair, so frustrating, as to have dominated my thinking for the last few days. It's already so hard to survive as a small business, to discover that what you thought was rock solid is actually built on sand has been terribly difficult for me to accept.

We do NOT want to over-book, nor do we want to walk people. It goes against everything in me to do so, and I've decided we will not -- cannot -- do so, or we are no better than the stupid chains. I got out of the corporate world largely because I could not exist in the circle of lies that large organizations -- especially dying ones, like newspapers -- create. And now I'm considering whether I should join with the chains in THEIR circle of lies?

Nope. Not gonna do it. Thanks to everyone for helping me through this.

So, the bottom line solution is this: Expedia reservations will cost the user more. If I can get an extra $3 bucks from everyone who books on Expedia, I will have more than made up the loss that comes my way because Expedia doesn't stand behind their reservations.

Sadly, I have no way of adjusting my on-line prices for only Expedia -- it will impact ALL of our on-line pricing, even on our own website. So, just remember to call us for reservations, and we'll treat you right.

(Actually, that's always been the only way to receive your AOPA or EAA discount.)
 
Jay Honeck said:
So, the bottom line solution is this: Expedia reservations will cost the user more. If I can get an extra $3 bucks from everyone who books on Expedia, I will have more than made up the loss that comes my way because Expedia doesn't stand behind their reservations.
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That's how I would do it if it were me.

Jay Honeck said:
Sadly, I have no way of adjusting my on-line prices for only Expedia -- it will impact ALL of our on-line pricing, even on our own website. So, just remember to call us for reservations, and we'll treat you right.
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Why not? Is it due to contractual obligations or technological limitations?
 
Jay Honeck said:
Excellent post, Jesse, and I have done a lot of soul searching over this. This whole situation has been so unfair, so frustrating, as to have dominated my thinking for the last few days. It's already so hard to survive as a small business, to discover that what you thought was rock solid is actually built on sand has been terribly difficult for me to accept.

We do NOT want to over-book, nor do we want to walk people. It goes against everything in me to do so, and I've decided we will not -- cannot -- do so, or we are no better than the stupid chains. I got out of the corporate world largely because I could not exist in the circle of lies that large organizations -- especially dying ones, like newspapers -- create. And now I'm considering whether I should join with the chains in THEIR circle of lies?

Nope. Not gonna do it. Thanks to everyone for helping me through this.

So, the bottom line solution is this: Expedia reservations will cost the user more. If I can get an extra $3 bucks from everyone who books on Expedia, I will have more than made up the loss that comes my way because Expedia doesn't stand behind their reservations.

Sadly, I have no way of adjusting my on-line prices for only Expedia -- it will impact ALL of our on-line pricing, even on our own website. So, just remember to call us for reservations, and we'll treat you right.

(Actually, that's always been the only way to receive your AOPA or EAA discount.)
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There you go, a much more tenable solution than succumbing to being what you say you despise.

Nothing says you can't apply a discount when they check in, make their trip that much better.
 
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Jay Honeck said:
When we charged the card for the no-show, it was reversed by the credit card company, when the guest reported the card as stolen.
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I missed the fact that the card was reported as stolen. That's a whole different situation than I thought you were dealing with. Given that, it sounds like you would have had the same loss even if Expedia had not been involved.
 
Jay Honeck said:
It's a system that places all the loss on the end user -- which is why the end users (the hotels) fight back by over-booking.
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Hotels over-booked long before Expedia or any of the other on-line companies came into existance. I go back to my previous comment.
 
Henning said:
I just found out I'll be in Stockholm tomorrow night... who do I call?
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Just remember:

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Henning said:
I don't care which type of reservation it is really. I make a reservation with your hotel and you respond, I hold you responsible for having a room for me, not Expedia. I don't really care that Expedia f-ed you. I've been f-ed plenty in my life. If someone f-s me I don't do business with them anymore. You make a reservation you gave me your word, if your word is no good I can't be bothered doing business. That's just the way I am.
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Interesting. I would have the opposite point of view. If I booked a reservation through Expedia and had a piece of paper with a confirmation number on it and Expedia's logo, I would consider the reservation to be with Expedia. If I arrived and there were "no room in the inn" my immediate ire might be directed at the innkeeper because he's right in front of me. But the entity I'd never do business with again is the entity who issued the reservation ..... Expedia. That would seem to have a longer and more satisfying effect given that the penalty of lost business would be greater to the entity who stands to lose every possible reservation I might make in the future rather than a particularly situated hotel to which I likely would never be directing business toward in the future anyway. And even if I told all my friends on Facebook (and they told two friends, and they told two friends, and so on, and so on) the same principle applies. Much higher likelihood of future lost business for Expedia than for a local inn.

I'm simply making the point that there is the possibility of as many different opinions on this as there are posters in this thread.
 
jesse said:
I've NEVER BEEN WALKED. It's NOT as common as you claim.
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Despite your sample of one, I think I'll trust the hotelier on this one. A quick check of the Google reveals that overbooking and "walking" are indeed a huge problem in the travel industry.
 
Sounds like a reasonable solution has been proposed and accepted. Net result for me ... I WILL be visiting Amelia's Landing. I won't be using Expedia to book that (or any other) reservation.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Excellent idea. And we've already instituted it. You have solved my problem -- thanks.
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Depending upon how late you man the front desk, you could ask your guests to leave the keys with the front desk when they go out to dinner/for the day etc. This is what they do in Europe in boutique or smaller hotels. In fact many times you get a massive carbuncle of a key chain so that you don't walk off with their key.

A hotel in Switzerland had a really cool solution. The room key was on a carbuncle chain, but, there was a "wall" where you inserted your key into the slot for your room (like inserting it into a door). Below it was a slim key which you then turned to lock your room key into that wall. IIRC, that small key was the front door key (for people walking in to the hotel after hours) and then the small key would unlock your carbuncle room key. You could get into the hotel after the front desk closed, and, your key was locked up nice and tight into the wall.
 
Rndmtrvlr said:
Sounds like a reasonable solution has been proposed and accepted. Net result for me ... I WILL be visiting Amelia's Landing. I won't be using Expedia to book that (or any other) reservation.
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Word, I highly recommend the Mustang Beach airport.

I haven't gotten to visit Jay yet, but plan to in the near future.
 
woodstock said:
Depending upon how late you man the front desk, you could ask your guests to leave the keys with the front desk when they go out to dinner/for the day etc. This is what they do in Europe in boutique or smaller hotels. In fact many times you get a massive carbuncle of a key chain so that you don't walk off with their key.

A hotel in Switzerland had a really cool solution. The room key was on a carbuncle chain, but, there was a "wall" where you inserted your key into the slot for your room (like inserting it into a door). Below it was a slim key which you then turned to lock your room key into that wall. IIRC, that small key was the front door key (for people walking in to the hotel after hours) and then the small key would unlock your carbuncle room key. You could get into the hotel after the front desk closed, and, your key was locked up nice and tight into the wall.
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:confused: Wouldn't your key be accessible to anyone in the hotel then?
 
Palmpilot said:
I missed the fact that the card was reported as stolen. That's a whole different situation than I thought you were dealing with. Given that, it sounds like you would have had the same loss even if Expedia had not been involved.
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Jay didn't outwardly state it as such until post 208. Before that it was simply presented as a case of he said/she said
 
Doggtyred said:
Jay didn't outwardly state it as such until post 208. Before that it was simply presented as a case of he said/she said
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However in the very first post in point number 5, he stated that the name used to make the reservation was NOT the name of the cardholder. Therefore the only logical conclusion would be theft or fraudulent use.
 
Rndmtrvlr said:
However in the very first post in point number 5, he stated that the name used to make the reservation was NOT the name of the cardholder. Therefore the only logical conclusion would be theft or fraudulent use.
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I disagree that would be the logical conclusion. I have made reservations for people using my card and putting it in their name. It was not fraud but a gift.
 
ScottM said:
I disagree that would be the logical conclusion. I have made reservations for people using my card and putting it in their name. It was not fraud but a gift.
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Did you later dispute the charge? Great way to save money on a gift!
 
Henning said:
Personally my observance of the failure of the mag card units even in severe climate is no worse than 1 in 50. It's rare that I can't make it work in a few tries.
...
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I have to admit my experience is quite different from everyone else here. My travel is usually 1 week at one place, then out and back to another place for a week. I'd say at least 50% of the time the magnetic keys give out / fail at some point in the week. I find the magnetic keys to be extremely unreliable.

That said, I don't want to carry a key. I'd really like someone to develop a magnetic swipe key that works. I like the form factor, I like the fact that they are "disposable" and there is no worry to losing one, I like that I don't have to turn it in ... I just leave. I hate that I have to schlep down to the lobby what seems like once a week to get a replacement.
 
Rndmtrvlr said:
Aha! Evasion. I'm onto your tricks, Mr. ScottM/Victor Melee. Or whoever you are.
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Well I think that if you read my posts in this thread carefully you will know that I am not VM. I only stay in chain hotels with magnetic key locks that will walk me when I show up!!! VM likes motels that are above that with their selective policies of whose reservations to honor, but have fresh muffins!!! :D
 
ScottM said:
I am not currently carry a passport at all...........

It is in the room safe!
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I used to just carry a copy of my passport with me, but it got to the point in Bali where I was getting a $5 instant fine for not having my original too often so I started always carrying the real one. Too bad the Passport card is so bloody useless.
 
Henning said:
I used to just carry a copy of my passport with me, but it got to the point in Bali where I was getting a $5 instant fine for not having my original too often so I started always carrying the real one. Too bad the Passport card is so bloody useless.
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Ah Bali. Love the restaurants where you walk through, point to the sea creature in the tank you'd like for dinner, then walk out onto the beach and have dinner served with your toes in the sand.

Ha! Funny how congenial we can be once the argument's over!
 
Rndmtrvlr said:
However in the very first post in point number 5, he stated that the name used to make the reservation was NOT the name of the cardholder. Therefore the only logical conclusion would be theft or fraudulent use.
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This happens a lot in business travel.

Our travel coordinator makes a reservation in my name but on her credit card to hold the reservation. Upon arrival at the hotel, the clerk uses my credit card for payment. That's why you might hear the clerk ask if you want to use the same credit card when you check-in.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
This happens a lot in business travel.

Our travel coordinator makes a reservation in my name but on her credit card to hold the reservation. Upon arrival at the hotel, the clerk uses my credit card for payment. That's why you might hear the clerk ask if you want to use the same credit card when you check-in.
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My clients book me rooms and flights all the time with their card and put it in my name. It's not that unusual in the service sector really when you need to fly someone in.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
This happens a lot in business travel.

Our travel coordinator makes a reservation in my name but on her credit card to hold the reservation. Upon arrival at the hotel, the clerk uses my credit card for payment. That's why you might hear the clerk ask if you want to use the same credit card when you check-in.
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Interesting. When I was still in the corporate world, my assistant always had all my numbers to make reservations in my name. Once again highlighting the variety of experiences represented here.
 
Henning said:
My clients book me rooms and flights all the time with their card and put it in my name. It's not that unusual in the service sector really when you need to fly someone in.
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Sure. If your client books travel for you and you don't show up, do they then dispute the charges saying, "I'm not Henning?"
 
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