I mentioned in another thread that I am considering training for a Sport Pilot certificate after about a year off from flying... I had 20 or so hours toward a PP certificate when I had to divert finances because of a household emergency (new septic system). I would like to ask some advice on how to request my log book from my old instructor. It was required that I leave the logbook with him... he made each entry as we trained and filed my book with the schools other students in between flights. I am a little nervous about asking for the book as I believe that he will frown upon me going to a Sport Pilot program. He is a very experienced and knowledgeable pilot/instructor, and frankly I am a little intimidated by him... but I think the Sport Pilot route fits my mission better at this time. I am a VERY non-confrontational type of person and don't want to get into a nasty situation, but I would like to add to my log-book where I left off... just as evidence of the journey I have had/will take in aviation.
Advice on Getting Log Book From Past Instructor
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wabower
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Wayne
Whose logbook is it? If it's yours, it's none of his business what you do with it. Just tell him you want it so you'll have it if you need it in the future.
rottydaddy
En-Route
Are you saying that you were "required" to share a logbook with other students? By "filed" I assume you meant "filled"? The CFI was logging training flights for more than one student in one book? I've never heard of such a thing. Can't imagine how it would benefit anyone, either... that's a very confusing way to go about it.
There's a reason why there is a space on the first page for you to fill in your name and information... it's supposed to be your logbook. It's also quite possible that such a practice is in violation of FAA regs. If I were a
Fed examining such a logbook, I'd be sorely tempted to render the entire thing illegitimate... it's just not "kosher".
I don't know who paid for this logbook, who's property it actually is, but if it contains any information regarding your flight training, you are entitled to that information, IMHO. You don't need a reason, whether your old instructor will approve of that reason or not. There shouldn't be anything "nasty" about asking for that information, with of course, the instructor's legitimate signature for each entry and endorsement.
FWIW, this reminds me of when my old flight school told me the records of my first solo were "lost" and I had to do it again. with, of course, some review flights prior to that. I had a logbook, it was in there, etc... but the instructor in question had moved on and nobody else at the school acknowledged my argument, and I didn't want to "get confrontational" or change schools, so I let it slide. It cost me in the long run, in more ways than one.
Now, having learned that lesson, were anyone to try something like that again (or what you've described), I'd get nasty, all right. Very nasty. There would be confrontin', for sure.
Never assume that everyone in the flying trades is honest, decent, as knowledgeable as their ratings imply, or even very bright. Trust if you want, but verify, verify, verify. I am very careful now about "oh, that's the way it is" or "it's OK", or "just fill it in", etc.
I am also the quiet, retiring type, but mess with my logbook or the info contained therein, or try to con me, for your own benefit, about what any of it means, and I'll hoist the Jolly Roger. The time, money and passion put into that little book means too much to me.
I cannot fathom how any pilot would "share" a logbook or shrug at the loss of all those hard-earned training entries!!! If you are at all proud of your flying, you need to rectify this.
You tell the instructor you need your log book. If he refuses you go to the police and the FAA and tell gthem he has your property and won't return it. You can also sue him for every hour represented in that book. That book is yours, not his.
4CornerFlyer
Line Up and Wait
Getting a bit over the top with the responses here. Just ask for the logbook back. You will not be the first student who did not finish with that instructor. If you feel you must give a reason, just say you aren't sure about when or how you'll continue and you would feel safer having this valuable property in your possession.
It is not unusual for flight schools to store students' logbooks. I remember leaving mine at the airport 25 years ago.
Jon
It is not unusual for flight schools to store students' logbooks. I remember leaving mine at the airport 25 years ago.
Jon
Why would anyone leave their logbook at the airport?
Trapper John
Ejection Handle Pulled
If I were the CFI, I'd ask why you're leaving, just to get useful feedback. But as others have said, it's your book.
If you're intimidated by the act of just asking for your logbook, well, I'm not sure what to tell you. If you're going to fly successfully, you need to be able to manage all kinds of potentially difficult situations, and this just isn't one of them.
Trapper John
If you're intimidated by the act of just asking for your logbook, well, I'm not sure what to tell you. If you're going to fly successfully, you need to be able to manage all kinds of potentially difficult situations, and this just isn't one of them.
Trapper John
RotorAndWing
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ScottM
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iBazinga!
I have never heard of being "required" to leave your logbook with one's instructor. Be that as it may, it is your logbook. A simple request that you want your property back is all that you need to make. Any extra info you give, as you have noted, may lead to questions you do not wish to answer. So did give out that info.
Sure there is, withholding someones log book would go against the moral standards clause required for his ratings. It is extortion/fraud plain and simple and for that they can pull his ticket.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
Hopefully the instructor still has your logbook and didn't lose or destroy it when you stopped training. Like some of the others have said, the logbook should be your property and I wouldn't hesitate to ask for it back. Chances are the CFI's policy of keeping student logbooks was a reaction to the common problem of students showing up for a lesson without theirs.
You certainly shouldn't have any reservations about getting it back nor should you be concerned about the instructor's reaction/opinion regarding your change in training. It wouldn't surprise me if he already wrote you off as someone who isn't coming back. The number of students who begin but don't complete training is pretty high AFaIK. So just call him and say you need your logbook. If you want to share your plans feel free to tell him whatever you feel like, while considering that you have no obligation to justify what you're doing.
You certainly shouldn't have any reservations about getting it back nor should you be concerned about the instructor's reaction/opinion regarding your change in training. It wouldn't surprise me if he already wrote you off as someone who isn't coming back. The number of students who begin but don't complete training is pretty high AFaIK. So just call him and say you need your logbook. If you want to share your plans feel free to tell him whatever you feel like, while considering that you have no obligation to justify what you're doing.
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Greg Bockelman
Just ask him for it.
I have seen some flight schools do that. It is just easier to keep track of if they are all in the same spot. At least you knew where it was. But to "require" it...
Don't be. It is really none of his business, and really, I doubt he will say anything about it anyway.
That is all you need to tell him. And quite frankly, he will probably say, "I understand. Good luck." At least that is what he SHOULD say.
Just go ask him for the logbook. That should be the end of the story.
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Greg Bockelman
Not share. Just be located with all the other students' logbooks.
No No No. He meant filed. As in all the logbooks FILED in a cabinet so they are all in one place.
I should clarify a few things...
The log book is my individual book, it only contains my logged flights. The instructor (owner of the school) keeps each students logbook in a locked filing cabinet in his office. When you go in for your lesson, your logbook is pulled out and he makes an entry about the days flight and logs the hours and his signature. It is in no way a shared logbook. His explanation was that students frequently forget to bring the book or outright lose it during their training. By him keeping it, he can ensure you have a complete and accurate record of all your training hours.
The reason I asked about advice on how others have handled similar situations, is because I wanted to do it in a way where I do not burn any bridges... GA is super small in my area and I'm sure our paths would cross again in the future. I just wanted to treat it in a professional manner, so we can each go forth on good terms. I was just looking for other's experiences in this matter.
In regard to my comment about me being intimidated, please don't take that as a sign that I am unable to make a difficult decision... I'll get the logbook back, but I prefer to do it politely. I am only intimidated by his knowledge and skill as a high time pilot. I only want to fly for fun, and am not sure he understands that. I will never be pursuing a career in aviation. He will not understand why I want to pursue a Sport Pilot certificate... and I really don't want to explain myself in detail. From all the training topics on other boards I have read, it seems like sometimes there is a disconnect between high time instructors and new students that have had no prior aviation experience... sometimes something that seems so basic that it can just be dismissed by a high time instructor, may be the knowledge that the student needs to continue to build a solid foundation for their training. We just didn't mesh, and it's time to move on. Just wanted to ask you -- those with MUCH more experience in aviation than I have -- how best to handle the situation in a respectful manner, and wether this is a common occurrence.
The log book is my individual book, it only contains my logged flights. The instructor (owner of the school) keeps each students logbook in a locked filing cabinet in his office. When you go in for your lesson, your logbook is pulled out and he makes an entry about the days flight and logs the hours and his signature. It is in no way a shared logbook. His explanation was that students frequently forget to bring the book or outright lose it during their training. By him keeping it, he can ensure you have a complete and accurate record of all your training hours.
The reason I asked about advice on how others have handled similar situations, is because I wanted to do it in a way where I do not burn any bridges... GA is super small in my area and I'm sure our paths would cross again in the future. I just wanted to treat it in a professional manner, so we can each go forth on good terms. I was just looking for other's experiences in this matter.
In regard to my comment about me being intimidated, please don't take that as a sign that I am unable to make a difficult decision... I'll get the logbook back, but I prefer to do it politely. I am only intimidated by his knowledge and skill as a high time pilot. I only want to fly for fun, and am not sure he understands that. I will never be pursuing a career in aviation. He will not understand why I want to pursue a Sport Pilot certificate... and I really don't want to explain myself in detail. From all the training topics on other boards I have read, it seems like sometimes there is a disconnect between high time instructors and new students that have had no prior aviation experience... sometimes something that seems so basic that it can just be dismissed by a high time instructor, may be the knowledge that the student needs to continue to build a solid foundation for their training. We just didn't mesh, and it's time to move on. Just wanted to ask you -- those with MUCH more experience in aviation than I have -- how best to handle the situation in a respectful manner, and wether this is a common occurrence.
SkyHog
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Everything Offends Me
My biggest piece of advice is to avoid letting an instructor keep your logbook in the future. Who knows what could have happened. Building burns down, CFI goes nutso and destroys them, FAA goes on a rampage and queries each book, etc. etc. Its your book, and if a CFI demands that he holds it (instead of requesting), he's a bad CFI and not worth going to. I'm not saying your CFI demanded it, I'm just saying if you run across one, be wary.
Some CFIs think they are God. In reality, many of them are mediocre pilots at best that were able to pass an additional checkride. Some CFIs actually are God, because they're really good at what they do. I suspect the CFIs that require that they possess your logbook fall into the former category.
dmccormack
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"Where's my logbook?"
"Why?"
"I need it."
"K."
"Why?"
"I need it."
"K."
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Greg Bockelman
Really shouldn't have to go past "May I have my logbook, please?"
I am sure he "knows" where his logbook is. :smile:
Thats what I was thinking...Politely is the key...
Sometimes being careful to not burn bridges and feeling like you have to walk on eggshells is sometimes divided by a very thin line...
AdamZ
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Adam Zucker
Follow Greg's advice. I think you will get it back if you do. If you don't then post.
RotorAndWing
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LOL! That's a good one!
Sorry, that dog won't hunt. The FAA does not involve themselves in personal disputes.
poadeleted20
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I've seen quite a few flight schools where that is school policy so instructors can review the trainee's log before each lesson and the Chief Instructor can review the logs to see if the instructor is doing his/her job properly and the student is progressing properly. I have never, however, heard of an individual instructor keeping his/her trainee's logs where they are not available for the trainee to pick up and take.
In any event, in this case, a simple request to the instructor involved should suffice.
poadeleted20
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Check your law books, Henning. It is not extortion unless the instructor demands unlawful payment for return of the logbook. It is not fraud at all. Absent a demand for payment (other than for fees owed to the instructor with the logbook held as collateral), if the instructor refuses to return it on demand, at most it's theft, and possibly grounds for a civil suit for conversion.
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rottydaddy
En-Route
OK, that makes a lot more sense. I am a little surprised to hear that this is fairly common, as I'd always assumed that there was some other record of individual progress, but it makes some sense.
I guess I made my wild leap of logic because the OP said he was required to leave it behind, which still doesn't make much sense.
Agreed!
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
My CFI kept a manila folder for each student - lessons, plans, and other flight info was recorded there. If I forgot my logbook and it resulted in a canceled lesson, I had to pay for my CFI time while I got chewed out or we did ground lessons instead. I never lost/forgot my logbook, and there were plenty of other records of my progress that DID stay at the airport.
poadeleted20
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For Part 61 schools that don't use Part 141-style training materials, it provides the review and prep function without the cost and work loads of separate training folders.
Convenience. I left mine at the flight school when I was a student pilot. Saw no need to carry it back and forth when the only thing that was going in it were lessons.
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Back in the day, we had student training records that were separate from logbooks. We kept the training records, the students kept the logs. The training records simply ensured that all requirements for the certificate/rating were met.
Bob Gardner
Dan Thomas
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That's how it still is in Canada, and if a student leaves, the law requires that the school give him the training records. I.m wondering if the FARs have a similar provision?
Dan
TMetzinger
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Only if he's an ATP... But even then, the FSDO isn't gonna get involved until AFTER you successfully sue and reclaim your property.
TMetzinger
Final Approach
That's how it is at my school. And even independent CFIs are supposed to keep records, including endorsements given, TSA stuff, etc.
poadeleted20
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No such provision in the FAR's. In fact, Part 141 requires that:
Whether the school provides a copy of the record to departing students is another story not governed by the FAR's.
BillTIZ
Final Approach
But isn't that the schools training record and student folder they are refering too.. and not his "logbook".?
poadeleted20
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That's correct, but the post to which I responded asked about "training records," not logbooks.
Back to the original premise:
Ask them for the logbook, and I bet they'll readily hand it over. They might ask why, which is a reasonable question for a service business to ask.
Ask them for the logbook, and I bet they'll readily hand it over. They might ask why, which is a reasonable question for a service business to ask.
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Doggtyred
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I have a problem with this.
The logbook is YOURS. Those hours are YOUR time.. no matter where you log it.. no matter who endorses it.. and no matter who your instructor is.
Ask nicely once for what is yours, then you no longer need to be nice about it. They dont need a reason. They dont need to know why. Its none of their business.
If their practice is that they dont want you taking instruction from another school while you are their student, thats fine.. they can ask you dont do that, but their only recourse is to fire you as a student.
There is no federal regulation that requires them to collect and hold your logbook, and I would never do business with a school or instructor that had that practice.
I would be very curious to know what school and where this is..
Send a letter:
Dear Mr. Instructor,
I'd like to thank you for the opportunity you gave me to begin my training for a Private Pilot certificate. I will never forget those wonderful lessons.
Unfortunately, it was necessary to quit because of a family emergency. I have regretted that necessity for quite some time now.
The good news is that it looks like I will be able to continue the thrill of flying by attending the Sport Pilot program offered by ____. Would you please mail my logbook to the address below so that I can continue with flight lessons.
Gratefully,
Your Name
Your Address
Your City
Dear Mr. Instructor,
I'd like to thank you for the opportunity you gave me to begin my training for a Private Pilot certificate. I will never forget those wonderful lessons.
Unfortunately, it was necessary to quit because of a family emergency. I have regretted that necessity for quite some time now.
The good news is that it looks like I will be able to continue the thrill of flying by attending the Sport Pilot program offered by ____. Would you please mail my logbook to the address below so that I can continue with flight lessons.
Gratefully,
Your Name
Your Address
Your City
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Greg Bockelman
Just go talk to the guy. End of story. I will wager 10 bucks that it ends amicably.