Advice on first airplane

[flyersfan31]

What Dave said.

You don't want to own the plane you learn in. Let someone else's aircraft take the hard landings, side-loading, and throttle jockeying. It's always ready for you, someone else worries about mx, fuel, preheat, etc. You don't need to worry about that stuff. Just hop in and learn.

Plus, what if you find you don't really enjoy flying? Just like buying a house - an airplane is easy to get into, harder to get out of.

One more thought -- you've never actually been in an SR22G3 turbo. What if you flew a bunch of planes and found you actually preferred, say, high wings for example? It's happened. Get the license, then take a bunch of demo flights in different aircraft. If you want the Cirrus, go for it; the Cirrus Access program makes it a lot easier to get the dual you'll need for insurance.

Good luck. Stick around, sometimes answers seem jerky but once you get to know the place you'll find yourself filtering out the negative. Plus, it's easy to misunderstand a post. Enjoy flight training.

Andrew

 

[kevin47881]

sorry, I have a life outside the internet. Thanks to those of you who provided great responses and weren't complete jerks.

Like I said in the original post, I read in a couple different places around the internet that most students will do fine learning to fly in a high performance aircraft. So to those of you who were jerks in your responses, how am I suppose to know any better, especially since I've only been up once (Piper Warrior)? That is why I attempted to find out here by asking people who do know better. I didn't realize I would offend anyone!

Jeremy - The reason for my post was that we will occasionally have a spammer hit and run with a post.

My bad and welcome back!

 

[gprellwitz]

Jeremy,
Welcome to PoA! You (unfortunately) haven't gotten the warm welcome we traditionally give to newcomers. Probably because you had a first post that tends to engender a lot of impassioned discussion! As Kevin mentioned, that's sometimes the trademark of a spammer (or a troll, or...). So here you go.... WELCOME ABOARD!

That said, I encourage you to stick with it! There's a lot to be said for a couple of the opinions and facts posted so far, and they're somewhat contradictory!
- Learn in someone else's plane!
- Learn in what you'll be flying
- Start with a "simpler" plane (not a Cub, but maybe a 172 or a DA40)
- You may have difficulty getting insurance in a HP aircraft as an ab initio student
- Fly a variety of aircraft before you purchase one so you can discover what works for you!

Given all that, my take, had I the finances, would be to get to sole using a basic trainer aircraft. At that point I'd know that I had the aptitude and the interest. Then go to some of the dealers, show them some bona fides (e.g. a checkbook ) and get an intro flight in a number of planes. They don't have to be new; just representative of what you might fly. Then determine which fits your proposed mission the best, make sure you can get insurance and a competent instructor for it, purchase it and complete your training, all the way through the instrument rating, and maybe even to the commercial level. With this sort of flying, there's no way you're going to be able to get away without an IR, and it'll definitely help on insurance, and it may even be required.

And, if you do decide on the SR22, I don't think you'll go wrong with their Cirrus Access program. You'll get a chance to make the sorts of aviation decisions you'll be making your entire flying life right from the get-go with an experienced instructor working with you.

That's my $0.02 worth, and you didn't even pay for it!

 

[gkainz]

Jeremy - welcome to the forum. I hope you stick around, even after a little rough landing on your first post. I think you'll find we have a pretty nice place here and a ton of collective experience to share.

Welcome!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

What we're not talking about here is acquiring judgement. Cirrus Access cannot teach you that.

Only a good instructor can - And there are good (and bad) instructors in (and out of) Cirrus Access just like the rest of the world. You don't get assigned an instructor for Access, you get to interview them. Choose wisely. The guy who is telling you what you want to hear is not the right one.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I think I will wait on a new airplane till the end of the year. Someone over on the AOPA forums said it perfectly.

"The quality of instruction has more to do with you being a good pilot that what you fly in training."

Bingo. That said, you will need more instruction in a hot, fast bird than you would in a 172.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

One more thought -- you've never actually been in an SR22G3 turbo. What if you flew a bunch of planes and found you actually preferred, say, high wings for example? It's happened. Get the license, then take a bunch of demo flights in different aircraft.

Amen. Cirrus, Cessna, Diamond, etc. are all more than happy to let you fly their planes for free if you're interested in buying one. It's a great way to avoid an expensive mistake.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

My accident investigator won't agree with your statement that "there's nothing wrong with the airplane". He also was in on the Malibu shedding wings at high altitude problem investigations, that ended up being an autopilot problem. He's compiled a lot of first hand data on the Cirrus (and many others), is an engineer and his opinions aren't here say, like our information is.

Well then, enlighten us... What's wrong with the airplane? "It has a parachute" isn't a valid answer, that's a safety item whose proper use rests solely with the pilot (including using the judgement necessary to keep from needing to use it).

Looking at the NTSB database at fatal Cirrus accidents for which a probable cause is listed, there are 21 fatal accidents listed, in the following general categories:

Improper IFR - 2 (circling below minimums, deviation from approach)
IMC loss of control - 4 (2 partial panel, 1 night, 1 VFR-into-IMC)
Weather penetration - 3 (lack of briefing leading to T-storm and ice x2, flight into ice after briefing)
Low-level maneuvering - 2 (Lidle)
Airmanship - 5 (go-around stall, return-to-field spin, approach stall, departure stall, maneuvering spin)
CFIT - 5 (VFR-into-IMC x3, night in a valley, high DA)

So far, I see zero mechanical-failure issues related to the airframe (avionics failures did happen though).

So, I ask again... What's wrong with the airplane???

 

[Henning]

So, I ask again... What's wrong with the airplane???

Nothing particularly, however, my qualms with it are:

1) No manual trim wheel, if you're not going to provide a manual trim system, there should be a two speed setup for fine adjustment, the "Cirrus flick" is kinda BS.

2) Side yoke, requires more arm movement than I would like to see. I would prefer side stick if it has to be on the side, and really would prefer a center stick (though many don't, so it can stay on the side).

3) Single lever power control, I would prefer to control the prop indepenantly of the throttle.

4) Not a retract and a tricycle. Dress it up all you want and despite the numbers, it looks like a kids toy.

 

[poadeleted20]

So, I ask again... What's wrong with the airplane???

Based on review of accident data, considerable study of the POH/AFM, and actual flying experience in type, I have concluded that the only component of the Cirrus which has any problem at all is the nut that holds the stick.

 

[jesse]

1) No manual trim wheel, if you're not going to provide a manual trim system, there should be a two speed setup for fine adjustment, the "Cirrus flick" is kinda BS.

I believe you have experience in the DA-20-C1. As you know, it has electric trim only as well. Do you find the Cirrus implementation more difficult to get 'in trim' ?

The reason I ask is the electric trim in the DA-20 never bothered me. In fact I miss it. The important thing is to know EXACTLY where the circuit breaker for the electric trim is located.

 

[Henning]

I believe you have experience in the DA-20-C1. As you know, it has electric trim only as well. Do you find the Cirrus implementation more difficult to get 'in trim' ?

The reason I ask is the electric trim in the DA-20 never bothered me. In fact I miss it. The important thing is to know EXACTLY where the circuit breaker for the electric trim is located.

The only qualm I have with the DA 20 trim is the switch position. If I'm trimmed for landing and have to go full power to go around, the position of the switch doesn't allow me to easily trigger it with my left hand while maintaining positive control for the stick, so I have to reach over with my right and hit the switch until I relieve the stick force some. Question, when you lose power trim, how do you trim the aircraft?

 

[jesse]

The only qualm I have with the DA 20 trim is the switch position. If I'm trimmed for landing and have to go full power to go around, the position of the switch doesn't allow me to easily trigger it with my left hand while maintaining positive control for the stick, so I have to reach over with my right and hit the switch until I relieve the stick force some.

I never noticed any problem with this. I always used my left thumb to re-trim and it never felt unnatural to me. Perhaps it was just something I got used to as I built up time in it.

Question, when you lose power trim, how do you trim the aircraft?

You don't. I never really considered this too big of a risk in the DA-20. It would be annoying but the control forces are light enough that it isn't the end of the world.

 

[Henning]

You don't. I never really considered this too big of a risk in the DA-20. It would be annoying but the control forces are light enough that it isn't the end of the world.

Considering you won't be flying a DA-20 down an ILS to minimums, you're probably right. Wouldn't much like to do that after I had runaway trim.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Nothing particularly, however, my qualms with it are:

1) No manual trim wheel, if you're not going to provide a manual trim system, there should be a two speed setup for fine adjustment, the "Cirrus flick" is kinda BS.

2) Side yoke, requires more arm movement than I would like to see. I would prefer side stick if it has to be on the side, and really would prefer a center stick (though many don't, so it can stay on the side).

3) Single lever power control, I would prefer to control the prop indepenantly of the throttle.

4) Not a retract and a tricycle. Dress it up all you want and despite the numbers, it looks like a kids toy.

I didn't find the side yoke to be too annoying, but I certainly agree with the rest. That said, none of the above has caused any accidents.

 

[ScottM]

I didn't find the side yoke to be too annoying, but I certainly agree with the rest. That said, none of the above has caused any accidents.

As a lefty I find the side stick very annoying. Having it means I never have my left had available to write things down. At least with a standard yoke I can fly with my right hand.

Now if I had a 2 or 3 axis AP that might not be a problem but with only 1-axis I still end up having to 'fly' the plane.

 

[Henning]

As a lefty I find the side stick very annoying. Having it means I never have my left had available to write things down. At least with a standard yoke I can fly with my right hand.

Now if I had a 2 or 3 axis AP that might not be a problem but with only 1-axis I still end up having to 'fly' the plane.

I didn't know they let left handed freaks fly....

 

[AztecWannabe]

Jeremy,

What kind of trader are you? Equity trader here. Although I wasn't considering buying an SR22 to train in, I bought a Mooney with all of 55 hours under my belt and a fresh PPL in a 172. Got the complex endorsement, then straight into the Instrument rating. I thought it was a great way to gain experience in a higher performance, complex airplane. Because even after the (insurance) required 10 hours of dual to solo the Mooney and get the complex endorsement, I was still scared of it. Having an instructor along for the start of IFR instruction was a great way to ease up to a more capable plane.

So that's basically my advice. Get your PPL in a 172, buy your SR22, then go straight into your instrument training. You are gonna get your IFR ticket aren't you?

After using several instructors for various reasons, I strongly agree with the "quality of instruction" comment you made.

 

[Ken Ibold]

As a lefty I find the side stick very annoying. Having it means I never have my left had available to write things down. At least with a standard yoke I can fly with my right hand.

Now if I had a 2 or 3 axis AP that might not be a problem but with only 1-axis I still end up having to 'fly' the plane.

Since the Cirrus is really meant to be an "autopilot on" airplane, I'm not as concerned about being a lefty (which I am as well). My beef with the Cirrus execution of the side stick is that pitch should be a stick pivot rather than a push/pull. It just feels unnatural to me.

Gimme a center stick any day, preferably right hand stick/left hand throttle.

 

[poadeleted20]

My beef with the Cirrus execution of the side stick is that pitch should be a stick pivot rather than a push/pull. It just feels unnatural to me.

It did for me, too, at first, but it only took a few minutes to become comfortable with it.

 

[Ken Ibold]

It did for me, too, at first, but it only took a few minutes to become comfortable with it.

I never did get comfortable with it, however, I've only done about 5 hours in a rental -22.

 

[rottydaddy]

It did for me, too, at first, but it only took a few minutes to become comfortable with it.

Yes... in my (admittedly limited)experience I've decided that there is no "right" arrangement, nor is it a big deal for the average guy to get used to something new and different.
Try the Wright Flyer some time if you want a real challenge (you move a hip cradle back and forth for roll, such as it is, and control pitch with a very short stick, all while lying down)... I flew the full-sized sim mockup at Airventure '03, and wiggled my hips to what may have been the day's record: almost three minutes!
I hit a tree...

 

[gprellwitz]

Gimme a center stick any day, preferably right hand stick/left hand throttle.

Prob w/center stick is that a lap board becomes impractical. Not a big deal, but it's problematic if you're used to one, like Leslie is.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

My beef with the Cirrus execution of the side stick is that pitch should be a stick pivot rather than a push/pull. It just feels unnatural to me.

Ah, but that's why they call it a side yoke instead of a side stick. It's like a yoke missing the other horn, kind of.

I thought it'd take longer to get used to, but I picked it right up. The trim flick sucks, though.

 

[Henning]

Prob w/center stick is that a lap board becomes impractical. Not a big deal, but it's problematic if you're used to one, like Leslie is.

My kneeboards always work just fine with a center stick though. I too prefer center stick left hand throttle, but it all works.

 

[gprellwitz]

My kneeboards always work just fine with a center stick though. I too prefer center stick left hand throttle, but it all works.

Yes, my knee board works with a center stick, but Leslie's lap board doesn't. It's one of the Sporty's tri-folds.

 

[Bill]

So I have a couple options:

1: Buy the SR22 before training
2: Buy it after I earn my ppl
3: Buy a non-turbo SR20 to go through training and fly it for about 6 months.

I think with Cirrus approved training, and some common sense, you'll be fine. It may take a good while longer to be PPL ready, but that is your choice. The only thing I would strongly consider is the beating you're going to put on your OWN aircraft. Your early landings are going to be sucktacular.

I wouldn't put a brand new driver in a Ferrari, as new drivers often drive over curbs when going around corners, bump into other cars when learning to park, hit potholes experienced drivers miss, etc. Even if one can afford it, it would be a shame to beat on a nice car when one can learn in a different vehicle.

 

[Pjsmith]

I think I will wait on a new airplane till the end of the year. Someone over on the AOPA forums said it perfectly.

"The quality of instruction has more to do with you being a good pilot that what you fly in training."

That's a great line.

My sister and I bought a plane together, but intentionally waited until she was well into her primary training to do so - that was based on how un-greaselike many of my early landings were...... If you're going to accidentally abuse a plane, might as well make it the rental trainer and not a beautiful new cirrus.