Advice needed - inherited airplane

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ej407

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ej407
Thank you in advance for any advice you may have for me.

I have recently inherited a deceased family member's single-engine Cessna. Though I have taken a couple of lessons and would love to keep and fly an aircraft, I am not currently in the financial position to support such a hobby.

Currently the airplane is being kept in a hangar at a small airport in the southeast. It is up to date on insurance, inspection, maintenance, etc. It has been very well kept.

My question is...what is the smartest way of going about selling this aircraft? I am in no position to market it myself and am out-of-state to boot. Are there go-to brokerages for this sort of transaction? What exactly are my options?

Of course I want to get fair market value for it, but I am also concerned about fees that will continue to pile up as long as it is in my possession. Internet research has failed to yield any clear answers; I have seen everything from "most brokers are scammers" to "brokerages are the only way to go", etc. I would be incredibly appreciative of any advice you all may have.

-ej407
 
Not really enough info. Are we talking a new Corvallis or a 1959 C150? There's about a 3/4 million dollar price gap between the two.

Selling an airplane isn't hard. A couple of planes I looked at were pretty much the description you provide. If it's an early 70s C172, I'd sell it on my own. Go to the local airport, find a CFI that knew the owner and see if he'll show it/fly it and contact the insurance company to get him on the policy. Fair market value isn't hard to find. PM me the particulars and I'll toss the numbers in Vref to give you an idea. Or you can join AOPA and get the Vref price for 40 bucks or so. IMHO Vref is high. Where's the plane at? maybe a POAer will give you his best guess.

I had more success selling on eBay than barnstormers or any of the other aircraft classifieds.
 
Welcome. If I may distill your first post here. You have a plane, which you inherited. You want to sell it for fair market. You don't want to be personally involved with the sale. You're concerned that a brokerage will scam you.

If I have that about right, I'd say you are asking the right questions, but you are unrealistic in your expectations. A broker will happily sell the plane for you, but it will not be for free, nor will you get 'fair market' after commission and fees.

Brokers work in several different ways. One way, they leave the plane in it's current location, and they advertise, show, and handle the aspects of the sale through transfer, then they will send you the remaining money after commission, fees, and any repairs needed. Some brokers will move the plane to their location and charge you a monthly fee for storage until it sells. Or, you could put it on ebay, hire someone at the airport to show it, and let the new buyer bid and buy then send you the cash on collection.

Or, you could have someone take some pictures of it, send them to you and you can put the info and pics on barnstormers.com, controller.com, and globalplanesearch.com and handle the sale yourself.

Each option has up and down sides. One of the most critical components of the sale is going to be the inspection, and remediation of any flaws found. If the plane, although you say it's inspected is found to have airworthiness deficiencies, they will need to be remedied before it's flown away. This doesn't mean the plane can't be sold, and transferred, but most buyers will want to have a plane ready to fly when they buy. Optionally, you can list it "as is, where is" and allow basic inspections, but the plane sells the way it sits with no resolution of any defects(all planes have defects, some are small, and some are big).

If hangar rent is a problem, since you won't be flying it, one solution is to find a very small airport away from city centers and move the plane to that location where the cost of a hangar will be much lower, maybe less that $100/month. After that, there is no hurry to sell it, and you can wait for spring, or summer when the market seems to pick up.

<edited for clarity>
 
bartmc said:
Not really enough info. Are we talking a new Corvallis or a 1959 C150? There's about a 3/4 million dollar price gap between the two.

Selling an airplane isn't hard. A couple of planes I looked at were pretty much the description you provide. If it's an early 70s C172, I'd sell it on my own. Go to the local airport, find a CFI that knew the owner and see if he'll show it/fly it and contact the insurance company to get him on the policy. Fair market value isn't hard to find. PM me the particulars and I'll toss the numbers in Vref to give you an idea. Or you can join AOPA and get the Vref price for 40 bucks or so. IMHO Vref is high. Where's the plane at? maybe a POAer will give you his best guess.

I had more success selling on eBay than barnstormers or any of the other aircraft classifieds.
Click to expand...

Thanks so much for your response.

It's a T182T Skylane, about 10 yrs old. Fairly low time, I believe. Forgive my lack of details-- I just learned of this in the past 48 hours. In the interest of discretion, I'd prefer not to reveal the airport but it is currently located in a medium-sized city in the southeast US. Co-pilot/CFI is already on the policy, flies it on occasion and has offered to help with the sale. He is someone I consider trustworthy but I have no idea the protocol on these sorts of things.

I would be absolutely uncomfortable selling it myself. Out-of-state, full-time job and zero knowledge of the ins and outs of such a transaction= recipe for disaster/getting screwed.
 
There ya go. You've got a built in helper that knows the plane, and can fly and deliver it if you like.

One word of caution, no matter how much you trust someone else, set the fee for the sale clearly, and make sure you see any money transfers personally. I would advise a fixed fee, no matter the price if the CFI/pilot will do it for a fixed fee. If not, a commission is in order.
 
ej407 said:
Thanks so much for your response.

It's a T182T Skylane, about 10 yrs old. Fairly low time, I believe. Forgive my lack of details-- I just learned of this in the past 48 hours. In the interest of discretion, I'd prefer not to reveal the airport but it is currently located in a medium-sized city in the southeast US. Co-pilot/CFI is already on the policy, flies it on occasion and has offered to help with the sale. He is someone I consider trustworthy but I have no idea the protocol on these sorts of things.

I would be absolutely uncomfortable selling it myself. Out-of-state, full-time job and zero knowledge of the ins and outs of such a transaction= recipe for disaster/getting screwed.
Click to expand...

You're probably in broker territory then. If it was a $40,000 1972 C-172 i'd suggest you go at it alone. What you have on your hands is a nice plane with some real money on the line. I would be uncomfortable going at it alone if I were you too.

Maybe a place to start is this guy:


Latitude Aviation
99 Battery Place
New York, New York, 10021
USA Phone: (914)625-5776


Email: neal.schwartz@gmail.com

He seems to be well respected selling high end single engine pistons.

I have no connection to him, other than observing his work.
 
Sorry for your loss. As someone who has been in the market as a buyer, here are some things I have found. It's advantageous it have it hangared and flown. So my advice is that you should attempt to have it flown somewhat regularly and keep it hangareduntil you can sell it. Also, be reasonable with your price. Don't give it away, but don't believe it's the best thing out there. There are a lot of overpriced planes that are on the market for a great length of time. Price it well to sell. Good luck!
 
bartmc said:
You're probably in broker territory then. If it was a $40,000 1972 C-172 i'd suggest you go at it alone. What you have on your hands is a nice plane with some real money on the line. I would be uncomfortable going at it alone if I were you too.

Maybe a place to start is this guy:


Latitude Aviation
99 Battery Place
New York, New York, 10021
USA Phone: (914)625-5776


Email: neal.schwartz@gmail.com

He seems to be well respected selling high end single engine pistons.

I have no connection to him, other than observing his work.
Click to expand...

I can comment on Neal. Never met him, but have spoken to him a couple of times regarding a beech he is selling. He appears to be a straight shooter and a knowledgable guy. I respect what he has to say.
 
docmirror said:
Welcome. If I may distill your first post here. You have a plane, which you inherited. You want to sell it for fair market. You don't want to be personally involved with the sale. You're concerned that a brokerage will scam you.

If I have that about right, I'd say you are asking the right questions, but you are unrealistic in your expectations. A broker will happily sell the plane for you, but it will not be for free, nor will you get 'fair market' after commission and fees.

Brokers work in several different ways. One way, they leave the plane in it's current location, and they advertise, show, and handle the aspects of the sale through transfer, then they will send you the remaining money after commission, fees, and any repairs needed. Some brokers will move the plane to their location and charge you a monthly fee for storage until it sells. Or, you could put it on ebay, hire someone at the airport to show it, and let the new buyer bid and buy then send you the cash on collection.

Or, you could have someone take some pictures of it, send them to you and you can put the info and pics on barnstormers.com, controller.com, and globalplanesearch.com and handle the sale yourself.

Each option has up and down sides. One of the most critical components of the sale is going to be the inspection, and remediation of any flaws found. If the plane, although you say it's inspected is found to have airworthiness deficiencies, they will need to be remedied before it's flown away. This doesn't mean the plane can't be sold, and transferred, but most buyers will want to have a plane ready to fly when they buy. Optionally, you can list it "as is, where is" and allow basic inspections, but the plane sells the way it sits with no resolution of any defects(all planes have defects, some are small, and some are big).

If hangar rent is a problem, since you won't be flying it, one solution is to find a very small airport away from city centers and move the plane to that location where the cost of a hangar will be much lower, maybe less that $100/month. After that, there is no hurry to sell it, and you can wait for spring, or summer when the market seems to pick up.

<edited for clarity>
Click to expand...

Thank you for your helpful response. Let me clarify that I completely understand that a brokerage will of course expect a commission, which is only fair! By "fair market value", I suppose I mean that I don't want to "give it away" due to my own ignorance.

Hangar rent not a problem for now, just want to get this done in a reasonable amount of time (no idea what average time on market would be for this aircraft...weeks? Months? Over a year?).

Having our co-pilot/CFI show it is an attractive option but I have no idea what a fair commission would be...

Should I choose to utilize a brokerage, are there any "gold standard/everyone-uses-them" outfits? Or perhaps it is best to stay local?

Do typical aircraft sales involve attorneys (as they are in real estate)?

As you can probably tell, I am a bit unnerved by this process and am willing to fairly compensate the appropriate parties to assist. Just don't want to get "taken".
 
Seeing how the OP is in Florida.... Who besides Henning do we have that's one of our good guys who can provide assistance in person?
 
ej407 said:
Thank you for your helpful response. Let me clarify that I completely understand that a brokerage will of course expect a commission, which is only fair! By "fair market value", I suppose I mean that I don't want to "give it away" due to my own ignorance.

Hangar rent not a problem for now, just want to get this done in a reasonable amount of time (no idea what average time on market would be for this aircraft...weeks? Months? Over a year?).

Having our co-pilot/CFI show it is an attractive option but I have no idea what a fair commission would be...

Should I choose to utilize a brokerage, are there any "gold standard/everyone-uses-them" outfits? Or perhaps it is best to stay local?

Do typical aircraft sales involve attorneys (as they are in real estate)?

As you can probably tell, I am a bit unnerved by this process and am willing to fairly compensate the appropriate parties to assist. Just don't want to get "taken".
Click to expand...

Aircraft sales don't typically involve attorneys.

A broker wants to sell the plane for the best price he can get for it since they typically work on a percentage basis. My opinion is to go with a good broker. The problem I've found with brokers is they can't talk the owners down to a reasonable price to get a sale.

A typical aircraft sell goes like this.

Buyer and seller verbally agree to the price and terms. This can be based on a visual inspection.

buyer puts some money in escrow along with a pre-purchase agreement.

a lien search is initiated. a fee is required, it's minimal and most all the folks who do this are in Oklahoma City.

buyer finds a mechanic to do the pre-buy. Mechanic gives his results. Seller determines if he wants to fix any problems agreed upon in the pre-purchase agreement. If he doesn't, the buyers money is refunded. If he does, he has the issues fixed and the sell continues. If the buyer backs outs, seller keeps the deposit.

AOPA has a boiler plate pre-purchase agreement.

You need a reputable broker.

There are some "VERY" less than reputable brokers out there. I've watched Neal sell Bonanza's for 5 years on beech talk. I'd trust him.
 
Wow, thanks to everyone for your quick and helpful responses!

Not a Citation but yes, it's a good airplane and is being hangered and flown regularly (and will continue to be until the sale is complete). I appreciate the broker recommendation- I will check out this option for sure. Please send along any other names you all may have.

Good information regarding fixed fee vs commission. Any ideas what a fair fee or commission might be?
 
ej407 said:
Thank you in advance for any advice you may have for me.

I have recently inherited a deceased family member's single-engine Cessna. Though I have taken a couple of lessons and would love to keep and fly an aircraft, I am not currently in the financial position to support such a hobby.

Currently the airplane is being kept in a hangar at a small airport in the southeast. It is up to date on insurance, inspection, maintenance, etc. It has been very well kept.

My question is...what is the smartest way of going about selling this aircraft? I am in no position to market it myself and am out-of-state to boot. Are there go-to brokerages for this sort of transaction? What exactly are my options?

Of course I want to get fair market value for it, but I am also concerned about fees that will continue to pile up as long as it is in my possession. Internet research has failed to yield any clear answers; I have seen everything from "most brokers are scammers" to "brokerages are the only way to go", etc. I would be incredibly appreciative of any advice you all may have.

-ej407
Click to expand...

There are two other options as well. Don't sell all of it, sell shares, create a partnership. Another option is to put it on leaseback with a training operation, this one requires some caution, it can be a good or bad deal depending on how it is structured. I'm in Ft Lauderdale, what airport is the plane based at? Perhaps I can help you out, if you like, give a call 954 608 8182.
 
N35 seems right on the money. I can see that it'd be real easy to get taken by someone who thinks you're easy cash. Brokers will have their fees but they can also get planes out from underneath you quicker if you're unfamiliar with the process. Barnstormers has been around for forever too. It just really depends on which way you want to go. The good thing is I think you have someone that is willing to ferry the plane if need be and like someone else mentioned, can help you in the process. I honestly have to say I think you need a broker. I wont lie, they don't work for free, but I think it cuts down on the headaches.

You're more than welcome to call Bill Heckathorn who is my former boss. (Don't worry, I upgraded my job) I worked with him for 4 years as an instructor. I completely trust him in his advice and selling abilities. Performance Aircraft is a Cessna affiliated flight school and specializes in late model Cessna single engine aircraft like your 182. I'm also pretty sure they advertise with the big guys like Controller too but based out of a small FBO in Nebraska. He wont make you obligated to do anything before he gives you some advice. I know it's hard to call and talk to someone you don't know but believe me, he's very optimistic and I promise he wont bite. Good Luck!!

Bill Heckathorn
(402) 475-6000
www.flyperformance.com
Little extra help: http://www.flyperformance.com/index.php?q=content/sell-your-aircraft
 
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Good advice given thus far. The fact that the plane seems to have been flown regularly is very good. So called "hangar queens", which is typical for your situation, lose value quickly; planes need to flown.

I have a good friend in Destin FL that is a retired airline pilot and flight instructor. He buys/sells planes and helped me buy my Baron and get my Twin Engine sign off a few years ago. I haven't asked him for permission to put his name on the blog so drop me a note if you are interested.

I am actually in the market for a 172/182 for my wife to use while she gets her PPL. I plan to put an offer on a local plane this weekend. I am located in the Charleston,SC area.
 
I've bought and sold on Ebay. As long as you can have someone demo the plane for you, it's dead easy. Just have a title company handle the paperwork - they'll do all the FAA registrations, title searches, bills of sale etc for you. Normally costs around $200-400. I can recommend Airtitle - dealt with them twice and they've been excellent.
 
My contribution was going to be to suggest Neal Schwartz, who has a stellar reputation, but since Bart already did, I'll simply offer condolences, and wish you the best.
 
Before you do anything make sure your paper work is in order. You need to get the title transferred from the deceased to your name or the estate's name before you do anything. And make sure there are no liens etc. on the airplane. 5-10% is what the going commission rate. If your guy is handling everything 10% is fair. Don
 
I'd reevaluate your financial position and look into keeping the plane.
Never know where that might lead you.

A bunch of years back I was reading a livejournal entry of a CFI, who got hired to go pick up an inherited twin with the new owner. The son who inherited the plane was a doc in a big city, his dad, who was also a doc, lived in rural lands and flew that twin around to service a bunch of smaller towns. The twin was destined to be flown to a place where it would be parted out, and throughout the flight that CFI was running the budget in his head, trying to figure out how long he'd have to stay in the dog house when his wife found out he was planning to save the twin from that destiny.
Him and the new owner got talking on that long flight, about the plane and the dad who passed and so forth, the owner went digging through his bag and fished out a picture of a young fellow next to a P-38 - his dad during the war.
Long story short, the son kept the twin, got his private in it and moved out of the big city back into his dad's area and flew that twin around to service a bunch of smaller towns. As the story goes, he found peace doing that.

Each person's path is different, but a good airplane is a good airplane, you never know if you'll ever get another shot at it.
 
PS I might be a bit biased on the whole deal - presently selling an inherited airplane I sold new to the owner who passed and just got the news yesterday that another good gentleman whom I also consider a friend isn't doing too well, and if it turns for worse, his son will also want to sell the bird. Which is a damn shame, considering the present owner had a lifetime involvement in aviation, having worked for Mooney, ERAU and Piper through the years.
 
In my opinion there are some really good aviation brokers and some horrible ones, so the most important thing is to vet them well. You have received some good advice here. I'll add another broker to the mix, Lincoln Park Aviation www.lpaviation.com like Van Bortel they concentrate in Cessnas. I'd personally try to sell the plane myself with the assistance of the CFI who now flies it. But given your remote to the plane and lack of knowledge a reputable Broker may be a good idea.
 
ej407 said:
Thank you in advance for any advice you may have for me.

I have recently inherited a deceased family member's single-engine Cessna. Though I have taken a couple of lessons and would love to keep and fly an aircraft, I am not currently in the financial position to support such a hobby.

Currently the airplane is being kept in a hangar at a small airport in the southeast. It is up to date on insurance, inspection, maintenance, etc. It has been very well kept.

My question is...what is the smartest way of going about selling this aircraft? I am in no position to market it myself and am out-of-state to boot. Are there go-to brokerages for this sort of transaction? What exactly are my options?

Of course I want to get fair market value for it, but I am also concerned about fees that will continue to pile up as long as it is in my possession. Internet research has failed to yield any clear answers; I have seen everything from "most brokers are scammers" to "brokerages are the only way to go", etc. I would be incredibly appreciative of any advice you all may have.

-ej407
Click to expand...

Welcome to POA...:cheers:..


Post some pics here... It is easy to do and I bet you "might" get it sold ...;)
 
Wow thank you all again for this fantastic help. Appreciate the info on the commision percentage and your recommendations for good folks to contact, should I go the broker route. A good bunch here and thanks for the kind welcome. I will post pics next time I can get a look at it. Will reply to each of you a bit later but wanted to stop by and check in. :thumbsup:
 
Call Van Bortel! They will pay you pretty close to what you would get trying to retail it yourself, they are honest and their money is good. :D
I've dealt with them for over 20 years and they are a first class company.
 
Just a thought, have you considered forming a small club to help with costs so that you can keep it and Finish up your private pilot certificate?
 
Henning said:
There are two other options as well. Don't sell all of it, sell shares, create a partnership. Another option is to put it on leaseback with a training operation, this one requires some caution, it can be a good or bad deal depending on how it is structured.
Click to expand...

Yeah, what HE said (mostly).

Don't be in a hurry to sell -- this is the wrong market.

Think this through. You OWN a plane that is superior to most of the type (because most of them are between 30 and 60 years old), and the type has an incredible history of reliability and safety, good for thousands of hours in the air with reasonable operating expenses.

KEEP IT.

You say yourself that you would like to have a plane, but can't afford it right now. If you lease it to a school, they will keep it exercised for you, pay the expenses and a little profit, PLUS you will STILL OWN THE PLANE. Even better, the money that you make will more than pay for your Private Pilot training, in YOUR plane. Meanwhile, people are paying you to use it when you're not, and your bird will be in high demand so the money will be fairly consistent, and you can demand top dollar.

I would NOT put it into a partnership. Retain full ownership!
 
VanBortel seems to sell a fair number of recent model Cessnas.

A friend has bought and sold several beechcraft through Carolina Aircraft sales and has had a good experience on all his transactions. I dont know whether they do Cessna singles.

If you dont have a use for it sell at an aggressive price using a reputable broker. Dont even think about getting into leasebacks clubs etc.
 
Condolences to you OP.

It sounds like you inherited a big goose egg.:wink2: Or it's one of those 'careful what you wish for' scenarios. It's odd that your late benefactor, would not have the foresight to leave enough $$$$ to support you and the plane at least a little, if they knew you are into flying. :dunno:

I can't recommend a broker, but it sounds like that's what you're going to need. Ditto on getting the plane paperwork in order from the decedent's estate. The executor, if that is not you, will have to take care of it. Good luck and hope everything works out on the deal for you. :)
 
First I'd go to the FBO where it's based and converse with him about it, or call him . No interest? Does he know anyone who might be interested in it? This would seem like common courtesy and he might then be interested. Often times there's someone right on the field who might want it. I'd offer him five percent of a reasonable saleprice if he sells it( or the CFI, same deal). Current annual? Conversing with him could save a lot of time and trouble. Lots of unknowns that you might want to study. As an old sage in the airforce once said, " partnerships are only good for dancing and f$@&ing.
 
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Sorry for your loss.

If you're concerned about the value of your aircraft, you could always have it professionally appraised. That way, you'd have a fairly good idea of the value and can make a judgement as to what you sell it for.

Here is the contact info for one gentleman who posts on another forum.

__________________
Mike Simmons
NAAA Senior Certified Aircraft Appraiser (NSCA)
Qualified Buyer's Agent
www.planedata.com
800-895-1382

For a loose value, here's links to trade publications. Keep in mind these are asking prices.

http://www.controller.com/list/list...Mdltxt=TURBO+182T+SKYLANE&mdlx=exact&setype=1

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search...eries&s-page_size=25&s-page=1&s-seq=4&s-lvl=0


Keep in mind that your asset will decline in value as it sits. There are carrying costs including hagar rent, annual inspection and insurance. Knowing what it's worth and how much value it may loose sitting will help when it comes time to evaluate offers. You can also expect some costs when you sell. You may want to enquire what those may be. Some will buy your plane sight unseen. Most buyers will ask to perform an inspection of the plane and will expect some items to be repaired or the price adjusted.
 
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You can get an excellent idea of what it's worth by doing the homework yourself. Barnstormers, trade a plane, van bortel, etc.
 
Update! After much thought and consideration of all options, we have decided to use our CFI/co-pilot to assist us in the sale.

Many, many thanks again to everyone for your time and generous help. Your contributions have been invaluable. I feel much better about the situation and will update when the airplane finds a new home.

Happy flying, ya'll.
 
ej407 said:
Update! After much thought and consideration of all options, we have decided to use our CFI/co-pilot to assist us in the sale.
Click to expand...

Get an appraisal, keep close tabs on who buys the plane and what business relationship he has with your agent. More than one estate has been fleeced out of a plane for chump change using the relationship scam.
 
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