Advice Needed: DPE conflict of interest

[steingar]

I couldn't even tie down at my airport without insurance. Don't know how the OP managed that one. Can't blame the DPE one bit. Something goes wrong, the FAA blames him, he's on tap for the damages. Says me take the ride. if ti goes south you can then find another DPE etc...

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Can't blame the DPE one bit. Something goes wrong, the FAA blames him, he's on tap for the damages.

I saw where the OP bought a plane and currently has no insurance on it. I didn't see where the OP said or even implied that he expected the DPE to give him the ride in his own plane with no insurance. Was that stated and I missed it?

 

[Timbeck2]

Yes, exactly. I have tried to get insurance and was basically told to come back after I'm licensed. For now she's just sitting there waiting on me

Then I would ask another insurance company. I bought my plane to finish up my PPL and had no issues with insurance as a student. After I got my ticket, the insurance went down significantly.

 

[Brad W]

I took it to maybe mean that the DE said "uninsured" meaning that teh DE was not named on the insurance. I've heard tell similar issues with some CFI's in customer owned aircraft, and that's why I jumped to that conclusion.

 

[Sinistar]

You need to share more details about you, location and plane. This isn't making sense.

I soloed and did 30hrs of solo in our HP plane. During training we added the CFI on the policy. When I did the checkride the DPE never even asked about insurance but went through all the logs to be sure it was airworthy and paperwork complete. I wonder if you told the insurance company you'd be adding the training company and a CFI it would help you get it insured.

 

[Caramon13]

I would go elsewhere too...I flew at two different schools Part 61 in my own plane using their instructors and no problems whatsoever. There's only one DPE in my area as well unless you want to go an hour or so north or south.

Part 141, well it's their rules I suppose.

Where I hit turbulence was when I wanted to rent a plane from another school, but use the instructors at my primary location. Then it was "no thank you". Either use our planes AND our instructors or your plane and our instructors. Can't use another plane from another rental place and our instructors.

The reason I tried that was because the aircraft in my area aren't cheap or really even that great to rent. I mean cmon..$190 per hour for a steam gauge 172? That's just crazy. And over 300 for an Arrow? Dual only btw... I can drive an hour away and get aircraft for FAR cheaper. And yeah I know that the flight time back would eat into the cost difference, but it was worth it for anything but training. Plus the aircraft were nicer.

 

[Lindberg]

My advice to the OP is to just go have a grownup conversation with the DPE. Just talk to him. Don't accuse him of being unfair, just tell him you've noticed that there seems to be some friction, and you want to know if there's anything you need to work out.

Examiners are required to have the FAA observe a number of checkrides. This can happen unannounced.
Another option is you could talk the FSDO about your concerns and invite them to show up unannounced to observe and make sure the checkride is fair. They would love the invitation, it shows a compliance attitude on your part, “ I don’t mind you watching how I perform, because there is nothing wrong with it, and you can help me fix it if there is”.

Do this if you want. But remember, no one has a perfect checkride, and the FAA in the back seat is grading the DPE while the DPE's grading you. So if one of the two is going to fail, guess which one it's going to be.

 

[Doc Holliday]

\
Do this if you want. But remember, no one has a perfect checkride, and the FAA in the back seat is grading the DPE while the DPE's grading you. So if one of the two is going to fail, guess which one it's going to be.

That actually works 2 ways. If the DPE fails the applicant, and the Inspector disagrees, then the DPE fails his check and the ASI will pass and issue the certificate to the applicant.

Or the DPE could pass the applicant, and the Inspector decides it should have been a fail, then fails both the DPE and the applicant, and issues the failure to the applicant.

 

[Lindberg]

That actually works 2 ways. If the DPE fails the applicant, and the Inspector disagrees, then the DPE fails his check and the ASI will pass and issue the certificate to the applicant.

I am sure that could happen. The applicant would have had to have completed the whole check ride though.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I am sure that could happen. The applicant would have had to have completed the whole check ride though.

Depends. If the DPE fails him on a maneuver and ends the check, and the ASI determines it was a bogus fail, the ASI can take the applicant back up and complete the check, or offer a discontinuance.

 

[DaleB]

All of that assumes the student, the DPE, and the FAA guy together can be in the plane and still be within W&B. Otherwise the FAA guy can watch from the ground.

 

[Doc Holliday]

All of that assumes the student, the DPE, and the FAA guy together can be in the plane and still be within W&B. Otherwise the FAA guy can watch from the ground.

 

[DaleB]

You're quite welcome. Glad I could be of service.

 

[Fiveslide]

Examiners are required to have the FAA observe a number of checkrides. This can happen unannounced.
Another option is you could talk the FSDO about your concerns and invite them to show up unannounced to observe and make sure the checkride is fair. They would love the invitation, it shows a compliance attitude on your part, “ I don’t mind you watching how I perform, because there is nothing wrong with it, and you can help me fix it if there is”.

That sounds like the aviation equivalent of "poking the bear", with the added complexity of finding a bear and getting it to drive to the airport at a predetermined time.

 

[schmookeeg]

Wow, Avemco is my "referral of last resort" for strange underwritings. If they declined.. woof. Something is amiss, although I suppose there will be a time where anyone over X age in a complex plane may not be insurable. Maybe the subject airplane is a Cardinal RG (and whatever it is, clearly there is a complicating factor here that is none of my business and making the underwriters frown)

I'd still gather quotes for the plane as if you had achieved your license. ie, add 5 hours to your current total and PPL instead of student. I'd want to know that if I passed a checkride, I'd be able to fly my new toy.. without, say, a $5,000 annual premium or something punitive.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

That sounds like the aviation equivalent of "poking the bear", with the added complexity of finding a bear and getting it to drive to the airport at a predetermined time.

Never volunteer anything to a government authority.

 

[Bacho]

I had no problem getting insurance with 32 hours under my belt. You need that now any way you cut it. My policy specifically states that I’m either flying with a CFI before my license or under the direct supervision of one. Last weekend a guy on the ramp a few spots down from me lost his plane in a wind gust while tied down. Something like that can happen in a heartbeat from no fault of your own.

There are 2 sides to every story. This story doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. When I purchased my own plane and intended to train with my schools CFI in it they did get a little testy. Initially they demanded $25 an hour more on the instructor. Eventually we settled at $13. I can appreciate the though that they weren’t making as much money off of me anymore. They certainly did not want their most valuable instructor locked up on a less profitable student. I consider the end result a win-win. I enjoy much more flexible solo opportunities as well as easier scheduling with my CFI. The school enjoys more scheduling flexibility with everybody else as they are short on aircraft. They probably make about the same amount of money.

 

[PPC1052]

Did you ask the local FSDO if one of their inspectors can give your check ride? If so, that will even save you the cost of hiring a DPE.

 

[cowman]

I've always carried insurance on my owned aircraft but I can't recall a single time a CFI or DPE asked me about it. That said, unless you're flying something particularly unusual or high $, aircraft insurance isn't that expensive. I was able to get it as a student pilot.

In regards to the DPE if you have issues then yeah try to get someone else. Most likely I'd imagine that involves finding an independent instructor who will take you on and fly the required time to satisfy FAA requirements and his own judgement of your ability to send you for a checkride. Without knowing any of the people involved I can't really say much about what's going on but I wouldn't want to fly with someone I was having a beef with, especially if that person was an examiner.

 

[Computerjim]

Lack of insurance is your problem! I will not give instruction in an uninsured aircraft under any circumstances! As for the check ride, no DPE will do it in an uninsured plane if they know it is uninsured. The financial riskes are way to high. Make up with the school, finish your instruction and take the check ride. I do agree that the owner is being a bit of an ass.

 

[iflyvfr]

I just want to go on record that the OP must have a seriously unusual plane, like a P-51 or a jet or something and that's why he is uninsurable. It surely isn't a C-150/172.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I just want to go on record that the OP must have a seriously unusual plane, like a P-51 or a jet or something and that's why he is uninsurable. It surely isn't a C-150/172.

With a name like “CardinalFlyer”, I wonder what that would be.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

There is something about the story which we are not hearing which makes this plane / pilot / location combination not insurable. I suppose it could even be related to the bad situation between the DPE / owner and the student. We just don’t know the needed facts right now.

 

[imwithtuxedo]

When I was ready for my checkride I couldn't find a DPE within 150 miles that was available. They were all booked up for 2-3 months. I found one 200 miles away in another state. My CFI signed me off on a cross country and I flew to meet the DPE.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Did you ask the local FSDO if one of their inspectors can give your check ride? If so, that will even save you the cost of hiring a DPE.

The FSDOs are so underfunded and understaffed they're not even doing initial CFI rides any more, which was a requirement in the not-so-distant past.

In fact, there's only one POI in our local FSDO, and half the 135 operators in the state have no POI (and thus, no supervision) right now. Sooner or later, there's gonna be a crash and someone will say the gov't needs to do something, and maybe they will... But the FSDOs are not in great shape right now.

Maybe that'll change with the recent collapse of the economy and travel and lots of pilots losing their jobs... But as soon as times are good again, out the door they'll go, and voila, no more free checkrides again.

 

[Samuel Seidel]

Or just get a CC signoff for the ride which is what I did.

Maybe I’m wrong here, but do the FARs allow you to sign off landing at another airport without first flying the route with that instructor?

edit: cross country endorsement doesn’t require to be flown with an instructor. It’s the repeated flights to and from an airport endorsement that requires being flown with an instructor.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

Maybe I’m wrong here, but do the FARs allow you to sign off landing at another airport without first flying the route with that instructor?

edit: cross country endorsement doesn’t require to be flown with an instructor. It’s the repeated flights to and from an airport endorsement that requires being flown with an instructor.

It must have been a long time since you started flying! Heck, my instructor told me to choose airports that we hadn't gone to, for CC solo flights.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Heck, my instructor told me to choose airports that we hadn't gone to, for CC solo flights.

This is what I did as well and what I think should usually be done. I've known a few instructors who did the opposite and only let their students do solo CC to airports they had previously flown to dual. I always wondered why any student would trust or pay for the teaching ability of such an instructor.

 

[rtk11]

Same here. My CFI had me plan a course in any direction I wanted so long as I: 1) Left the general area we had been flying in, 2) course covered the minimum distance required for a cross country, 3) I made full stops at three airports (minimum), 4) I cleared the course with him in advance, 5) we called WX Brief to get a briefing together, and 6) I called or texted him from each airport I landed at. (This is pre ADS-B. Today, I suppose you could just track a tail number.)

 

[azure]

It must have been a long time since you started flying! Heck, my instructor told me to choose airports that we hadn't gone to, for CC solo flights.

This depends entirely on the instructor. I agree that it defeats part of the purpose of the solo CC to require the student to fly routes that you've already flown with them dual. But I can also understand that some instructors, having been burned by students taking advantage of the freedom or doing stupid things and busting airspace (my first instructor had a student bust the DTW Bravo on a solo CC along an unfamiliar route) might be gun-shy about letting a student navigate a route they've never flown before, for real, solo.

That said, @Samuel Seidel wasn't asking about solo CCs, but about repeated flights to an airport without a specific sign-off on the day of the flight, and I admit I have no idea. I do know that for the airports that I was signed off to fly to, my CFI did fly with me and made sure that I knew the way things were done there, which in some cases might be very non-standard (e.g. clear-of-the-runway at KPTK, at least at that time, did NOT mean crossing the hold short line all the way, since many HSLs were close to a crossing taxiway).

 

[Juliet Hotel]

This depends entirely on the instructor. I agree that it defeats part of the purpose of the solo CC to require the student to fly routes that you've already flown with them dual. But I can also understand that some instructors, having been burned by students taking advantage of the freedom or doing stupid things and busting airspace (my first instructor had a student bust the DTW Bravo on a solo CC along an unfamiliar route) might be gun-shy about letting a student navigate a route they've never flown before, for real, solo.

I can understand a instructor wanting to be gun shy, but I think the solution should be the instructor asking how the student could have been better prepared (i.e. what could I have done differently) rather than oh I'll just keep doing the same inadequate teaching but I'll just not sign off CC unless the student has flown them with me first.

In a similar vane, I once knew a CFI who taught in a flying club I was a member of. I saw him sitting in the FBO one day with charts out planning a flight. I asked where he was going. Nowhere, I'm planning a solo CC for one of my students was the reply. Shouldn't the student be doing that I asked. They can if they want he replied, but I only sign them off to fly CC's that I plan for them. I raised an eyebrow at him, he said I make sure my students don't get lost.

After a while, I got to where I could figure out which of the club members had learned to fly with him. They were the ones who would only fly somewhere other than one of four airports within 100 miles of home base if they had a CFI or another pilot whom they knew 'flew other places a lot' in the other seat. They would never make such a flight on their own because the didn't know how.

 

[azure]

I can understand a instructor wanting to be gun shy, but I think the solution should be the instructor asking how the student could have been better prepared (i.e. what could I have done differently) rather than oh I'll just keep doing the same inadequate teaching but I'll just not sign off CC unless the student has flown them with me first

In this case I don't think inadequate teaching was the problem. From his description, I think this was a student he should have fired and never signed off. Just not pilot material. Very poor ADM and a tendency to fixate and ignore the big picture. The flight in question was to somewhere due west of KDET, might have been KJXN or KBTL.The student got lost and decided to follow I-94 home because it was an easily recognized throughway. The idiot didn't realize, didn't check his chart, or didn't care that I-94 went straight through the KDTW surface area.

In a similar vane, I once knew a CFI who taught in a flying club I was a member of. I saw him sitting in the FBO one day with charts out planning a flight. I asked where he was going. Nowhere, I'm planning a solo CC for one of my students was the reply. Shouldn't the student be doing that I asked. They can if they want he replied, but I only sign them off to fly CC's that I plan for them. I raised an eyebrow at him, he said I make sure my students don't get lost.

After a while, I got to where I could figure out which of the club members had learned to fly with him. They were the ones who would only fly somewhere other than one of four airports within 100 miles of home base if they had a CFI or another pilot whom they knew 'flew other places a lot' in the other seat. They would never make such a flight on their own because the didn't know how.

Yes I'm not at all surprised. That CFI is not doing his students any favors, in fact I'd advise anyone wanting to learn to fly to stay away from him. Requiring students to fly a route dual before the solo XC is not quite so unusual though. I don't agree with it, I think it is cheating students out of an important part of their training, but I wouldn't say necessarily to avoid an instructor because that's his policy.

(That said, it is one - though not the main - reason why I switched instructors for the rest of my primary training.)

 

[PaulS]

This post is almost 2 months old, I wonder if the op ever got his license?

 

[Rein Hart]

Update?