Advice for equipping my plane for IFR

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Leebarkley

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Lee Barkley
So I'm looking for some solid advice and help. A little back ground..... Purchased my own 1971 172L about 2 years ago and finally got my private ticket earlier this year. Now I want to keep my training Rollin and move into IFR. Only issue is my plane is not equipped for IFR. I have 2 Comms and 1 NAV radio with a VOR. I understand that I need a glide slope indicator but do I need 2 NAV radios? And like most Americans I can't really afford to shell out thousands and thousands at this time. Does anyone know where I can find used/overhauled equipment that I could get maybe a little cheaper then new equipment? Any other advise would be greatly appreciated as well, thanks!
 
While others will suggest some electronics, don't forget the old school items including a cat and a duck.

And welcome to PoA!!!
 
I'd say the best thing would be to get a Garmin 430 with WAAS, and keep your NAV/Com as number two.
 
Oh, and 2 NAV radios will make some tasks (such as position verification) a much simpler task.
 
TMetzinger said:
I'd say the best thing would be to get a Garmin 430 with WAAS, and keep your NAV/Com as number two.
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that's good advice, but it wouldn't be cheap. You can get by with one GS and one set of radios, but it won't make things easy.

this is a personal call, but I recommend an ipad/foreflight.
 
Could be. I may be spoiled, but I think adding a GS will add just a little value to the airplane for IFR ops and nothing to resale. Adding a 430W gets you more return both ways.
 
You are already equipped for IFR ( assuming your inspections are up to date), just limited in options for approaches (VOR only and by association available airports--purposly excluding radar only) and guaranteed a higher level of workload. Of course, for training this won't cut it as you'll need to be able to shoot 3 different types of approaches.

At the min I'd suggest replacing your CDI as you are already pulling in a GS with your your existing VOR antenna. Depending on your Nav radio, you might need to add a diplexor to split off the GS signal and then install an appropriate indicator to display it.

Adding a WAAS GPS would then give you all you'd ever need.

If you have to choose between a 2nd Nav and a GPS, go with the GPS.
 
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Where do you live? From what I can tell you'll minimally need a Glide Slope head and an ADF for a second NAV, shame the install on the ADF will cost 10xs what it does to purchase. The next lower cost solution will be a King 89B IFR GPS. The real question is how much will you use your IR?
 
I live in Maryland north of Baltimore, once I get my IFR rating I don't know how much ill use it......but I am looking to keeping going in my training, commercial etc. The 430 is pretty sweet but the cost isn't ha.... Not to mention getting it installed
 
Henning said:
Where do you live? From what I can tell you'll minimally need a Glide Slope head and an ADF for a second NAV, shame the install on the ADF will cost 10xs what it does to purchase. The next lower cost solution will be a King 89B IFR GPS. The real question is how much will you use your IR?
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ADF? What is that? :)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Kln89b is the cheap way to get /G but it doesn't have GS or comm capabilities and requires an ezternal annunciator. I put a KLN89B IFR setup and a KY197 from a donor plane in my Cherokee and was happy with it, about $3K all in including labor and I had a KX155 w/GS already installed. The 89B is getting tough to support, I'd shy away from it. I believe a 430W is about the minimum thats worth sinking money into.
 
Leebarkley said:
I live in Maryland north of Baltimore, once I get my IFR rating I don't know how much ill use it......but I am looking to keeping going in my training, commercial etc. The 430 is pretty sweet but the cost isn't ha.... Not to mention getting it installed
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There's the rub. Upgrade just your CDI and you get immediate access to one precision (ILS) and two non-precicision (LOC & VOR) approaches, albeit with a high workload-- not good IMO, especially if you do only the min only to stay current. But if you want to get your ticket in your plane you'll need to add either an ADF or GPS.

Do you have an autopilot?
 
stratobee said:
To be legal to fly IFR you actually need almost nothing. You can't do approaches to minimums, but you can go fly. No VOR, no GS, no GPS - none of that is legally required. Probably useful though. The minimums you need are (except for the VFR instruments):

Turn Coordinator or Rate-of-Turn-meter
AI
Horizontal Gyro
Clock
Radio

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFar.nsf/FARSBySectLookup/91.205
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This is for the checkride purposes though and I'm pretty sure he's got to have a secondary type of navigation. I did my IR with a singly KX-170B that had a GS and an ADF, that got the precision and two non precision approaches. Perhaps he can use an LDA approach for one off the non precision and only need to add a GS head&antenna? :dunno:
 
I upgraded my 172 with a kx 155 with an indicator.if I had to do it now I would go for a garmin 430 with the 206 indicator.
 
I did 20hrs of instrument training on my old Commander with a single VOR/GS, no DME. Had to switch frequency for the cross radials every time to determine where the step-downs were. Finally my CFI got fed up with the high workload/basicness of it all and stopped having time for me...:D
 
jordane93 said:
get a 430W. its worth it
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Sad thing is, it isn't worth it anymore, the 750 showed what a poor interface the 430w has. I never liked that box with the twist push twist poke turn turn Hokey Pokey crap. If you're gonna spend real money, may as well get the 750.
 
Leebarkley said:
So I'm looking for some solid advice and help. A little back ground..... Purchased my own 1971 172L about 2 years ago and finally got my private ticket earlier this year. Now I want to keep my training Rollin and move into IFR. Only issue is my plane is not equipped for IFR. I have 2 Comms and 1 NAV radio with a VOR. I understand that I need a glide slope indicator but do I need 2 NAV radios? And like most Americans I can't really afford to shell out thousands and thousands at this time. Does anyone know where I can find used/overhauled equipment that I could get maybe a little cheaper then new equipment? Any other advise would be greatly appreciated as well, thanks!
Click to expand...

Personally, I think it comes down to how well the current 172 fits your mission longer-term.

If the useful load, speed, autopilot, etc. is totally fine and you don't foresee the need to upgrade, I'd vote for the G430W/GTN750 to make the plane really IFR capable.

If, however, you foresee the plane as alternative to renting while you get licenses, I'd vote for the cheapest IFR route possible -- maybe even to the point of just getting the IFR pitot/transponder/altitude cert and getting your IFR totally bare-bones / old-school. Then, find a plane you want to keep a while with the goodies already in it. 'Will likely be a 50% or more discount over buying it yourself in your current plane.
 
tsts4 said:
There's the rub. Upgrade just your CDI and you get immediate access to one precision (ILS) and two non-precicision (LOC & VOR) approaches, albeit with a high workload-- not good IMO, especially if you do only the min only to stay current. But if you want to get your ticket in your plane you'll need to add either an ADF or GPS.

Do you have an autopilot?
Click to expand...

No autopilot
 
You may want to take the good advice you're getting here and go talk with an avionics shop. See what kind of $$ you're talking about. Unfortunately, I don't see you getting a good IFR platform without investing a fair amount of money into your plane.

Although not necessary, I would love for you to get an IFR approved GPS--waas if possible. It definitely gives you more options and more redundancy. At my home base, you can actually get in with lower ceilings using the GPS approach vs the ILS approach.
 
Leebarkley said:
So I'm looking for some solid advice and help. A little back ground..... Purchased my own 1971 172L about 2 years ago and finally got my private ticket earlier this year. Now I want to keep my training Rollin and move into IFR. Only issue is my plane is not equipped for IFR. I have 2 Comms and 1 NAV radio with a VOR. I understand that I need a glide slope indicator
Click to expand...
That's pretty much correct -- you have to be able to do a precision approach like ILS on your practical test. Theoretically, you could do that one approach on an approved sim, and the rest of the ride in the plane, but that's hard to put together.

but do I need 2 NAV radios?
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By the book, no. I trained someone this summer in an old Tri-Pacer with only one nav/comm (with GS) and a transponder. But that was a tough row for her to hoe, especially doing things like a partial-panel approach with an intersection hold-in-lieu-of-PT. So, while it can be done with only one nav, it's something of a challenge.

And like most Americans I can't really afford to shell out thousands and thousands at this time. Does anyone know where I can find used/overhauled equipment that I could get maybe a little cheaper then new equipment? Any other advise would be greatly appreciated as well, thanks!
Click to expand...
There are a number of sources for good reconditioned radios, like Bennett, Sarasota, and East Coast (google them). I wouldn't want to make any suggestions without knowing exactly what radios are in your plane now, but you can probably stay under $2000 to get to the desired level of equipment (dual comm, dual nav - one with GS) including parts and labor.
 
stratobee said:
To be legal to fly IFR you actually need almost nothing. You can't do approaches to minimums, but you can go fly. No VOR, no GS, no GPS - none of that is legally required. Probably useful though. The minimums you need are (except for the VFR instruments):

Turn Coordinator or Rate-of-Turn-meter
AI
Horizontal Gyro
Clock
Radio

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFar.nsf/FARSBySectLookup/91.205
Click to expand...

That's somewhat misleading. First, you must have at least a VOR/LOC/GS for the IR practical test -- ILS is the minimum for the Precision Approach task. Second, while flying IFR with no nav radios is theoretically legal, the FAA is on record saying that it would be almost impossible not to break some other rule or be unable to get a clearance with which you can comply without at least one VOR.
 
tsts4 said:
There's the rub. Upgrade just your CDI and you get immediate access to one precision (ILS)
Click to expand...
Not without a GS receiver, and that may not be included in his existing nav radio. Maybe no GS antenna on the plane, either -- older Cessnas had VOR antennas that didn't double as GS.
 
Leebarkley said:
So I'm looking for some solid advice and help. A little back ground..... Purchased my own 1971 172L about 2 years ago and finally got my private ticket earlier this year. Now I want to keep my training Rollin and move into IFR. Only issue is my plane is not equipped for IFR. I have 2 Comms and 1 NAV radio with a VOR. I understand that I need a glide slope indicator but do I need 2 NAV radios? And like most Americans I can't really afford to shell out thousands and thousands at this time. Does anyone know where I can find used/overhauled equipment that I could get maybe a little cheaper then new equipment? Any other advise would be greatly appreciated as well, thanks!
Click to expand...

Find a NARCO NAV 12. they are a stand alone VOR with GS they are cheap, and bullet proof.
 
stratobee said:
I did 20hrs of instrument training on my old Commander with a single VOR/GS, no DME. Had to switch frequency for the cross radials every time to determine where the step-downs were. Finally my CFI got fed up with the high workload/basicness of it all and stopped having time for me...:D
Click to expand...
You need a better/more dedicated instructor.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's somewhat misleading. First, you must have at least a VOR/LOC/GS for the IR practical test -- ILS is the minimum for the Precision Approach task. Second, while flying IFR with no nav radios is theoretically legal, the FAA is on record saying that it would be almost impossible not to break some other rule or be unable to get a clearance with which you can comply without at least one VOR.
Click to expand...

I'd want something that can measure distance in addition to a nav unit or two.
 
Tom-D said:
Find a NARCO NAV 12. they are a stand alone VOR with GS they are cheap, and bullet proof.
Click to expand...
Cheap, yes; bullet-proof, no -- not by a long shot. And what usually fails most are the plastic gears, which are no longer available since Narco closed their doors. Even if you can find the parts, it's hard to find anyone who works on them.
 
bartmc said:
I'd want something that can measure distance in addition to a nav unit or two.
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He can get a portable GPS for real life, he's looking for legal minimums to do a check ride with. While I personally like a DME, I couldn't see installing one in a 172 these days, you can get an older IFR GPS installed for not much more.
 
bartmc said:
I'd want something that can measure distance in addition to a nav unit or two.
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That's nice to have, but it doesn't appear to be within the OP's budget at this time. The question was (I think) what is needed to get him through the IR training and practical test, and a GPS/DME isn't needed for that.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's nice to have, but it doesn't appear to be within the OP's budget at this time. The question was (I think) what is needed to get him through the IR training and practical test, and a GPS/DME isn't needed for that.
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Depends on his local area, a DME at least was needed to get in anywhere around KMSO. About the time I had rounded up an ADF to replace my INOP KR86, they decommissioned the NDB that would have gotten me in legally. Opted for a KLN89B instead of a DME.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's the Nav 122, not the Nav 12, and it's $2200 for the unit alone, installation extra. And they still have the problem of no parts support and few shops to work on them.
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Who told you that, their pubs and prints are now in public domain, and any radio shop can work on them. their parts are off the shelf supplies, there are thousands of them still serving well the 122 is simply the updated solid state version of the 12.

after all is said and done this guy is going to get his training in a 172, and it is not worth having a radio stack worth more than the aircraft.

This guy probably is better off renting the aircraft that is already equipped for the purpose, because he will probably up grade the aircraft when he really wants to do hard IFR work.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's the Nav 122, not the Nav 12, and it's $2200 for the unit alone, installation extra. And they still have the problem of no parts support and few shops to work on them.
Click to expand...

Oh I forgot the install, it requires a RG cable a plus and a minus wire, and 4 screws.
 
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