ADSB Traffic - a possible midair averted

[Bill Watson]

Today while flying a rare VFR no-FF leg from Charlotte to Durham, I spotted converging traffic on the scope at my altitude a few mile south of Asheboro. I scanned and scanned and finally decided to turn for his tail.

Never saw him until after the convergence point, then I spotted his tail exactly where the scope said he would be. The sky is big but that could have been the real thing.

One of those days with flat light and little contrast. I know he never saw me. Luck serves us well.

On a completely unrelated note, kudos to the great folks at Wilson Air at KCLT for the loaner, reasonable gas price and fantastic service. My favorite stop!

 

[Clark1961]

ADSB-in is a powerful tool. I hope more people adopt it.

 

[Unit74]

I have had something similar WHILE on FF. Center never called it out and he passed 500 over me. I wasn't too happy about that.

 

[dans2992]

I wonder if fewer people will call for FF after 2020 since they should be seeing everything the controller sees via ADS-B?

Sure, they can't see the NORDO cubs, but neither can ATC.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Marauder]

Today while flying a rare VFR no-FF leg from Charlotte to Durham, I spotted converging traffic on the scope at my altitude a few mile south of Asheboro. I scanned and scanned and finally decided to turn for his tail.

Never saw him until after the convergence point, then I spotted his tail exactly where the scope said he would be. The sky is big but that could have been the real thing.

One of those days with flat light and little contrast. I know he never saw me. Luck serves us well.

On a completely unrelated note, kudos to the great folks at Wilson Air at KCLT for the loaner, reasonable gas price and fantastic service. My favorite stop!

Yep, I agree...I have had a few of these. Looks a little closer than it was because of the scale.

 

[James331]

I wonder if fewer people will call for FF after 2020 since they should be seeing everything the controller sees via ADS-B?

Sure, they can't see the NORDO cubs, but neither can ATC.


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Depends, radar can see a lot more than just ADSB.

For me, VMC, I'll trust my two eyeballs and my pledge cleaned windows.

 

[frcabot]

500 ft separation is pretty adequate. Think about it: VFR traffic in one direction and IFR I'm the other are only separated by 500 ft due to cardinal altitudes. As long as you're both in level flight it's fine. Flying in busy airspace out here by KSFO, that doesn't phase me in the least.

 

[oldShar]

I wonder if fewer people will call for FF after 2020 since they should be seeing everything the controller sees via ADS-B?

Sure, they can't see the NORDO cubs, but neither can ATC.


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The BIG thing I get out of FF is the activation of SAR in the event of a MayDay --- particularly out in the boonies when more than 100 miles from any significant civilization (other than bear, cougar, or wolf)
For that, I'll stay in touch

 

[John Collins]

I wonder if fewer people will call for FF after 2020 since they should be seeing everything the controller sees via ADS-B?

Sure, they can't see the NORDO cubs, but neither can ATC.


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Fewer people will probably call for FF when they are equipped with ADSB Out/In, but it will be a mistake on their part. Any of the traffic that ATC now calls out, traffic two o'clock, altitude unknown will not show up on ADS-B. That can be transponder traffic without mode C or a primary target.

 

[netsurfr]

John I'm close to pulling the trigger on ADSB by installing a GDL88. I've read posts where you indicate that dual diversity installations are not needed in Beechcraft planes. Does that pretty much apply to smaller/similar planes like Piper PA28s?

The cost to go dual diversity adds about $1500+ to my quote and I could surely use $1500 for other things so thought I'd check.

Fewer people will probably call for FF when they are equipped with ADSB Out/In, but it will be a mistake on their part. Any of the traffic that ATC now calls out, traffic two o'clock, altitude unknown will not show up on ADS-B. That can be transponder traffic without mode C or a primary target.

 

[John Collins]

Jose,

I think the main benefit of diversity is achieved at the major airports that provide surface ADS-B. On these major airports, mostly Class B airports, you can see traffic on the ground and on the runway final approach path. The GNS430W/530W don't support this application, but the GTN650/750 do. So if I was installing a GDL88 in an aircraft with a GTN unit, I would seriously consider adding the top antenna, otherwise not.

 

[Bill Watson]

Yep, I agree...I have had a few of these. Looks a little closer than it was because of the scale.

500 ft separation is just to be monitored. Most of my ADSB alerts are not close due to altitude. I've gotten so accustomed to the display that I could see the problem before an alert was generated and I started my turn before the alert as well. When I did spot him all I got was tail feathers and it sent a chill up my arse. VMC but flat gray light....

 

[Marauder]

500 ft separation is just to be monitored. Most of my ADSB alerts are not close due to altitude. I've gotten so accustomed to the display that I could see the problem before an alert was generated and I started my turn before the alert as well. When I did spot him all I got was tail feathers and it sent a chill up my arse. VMC but flat gray light....

The intention of the other pilot is what always bothers me. This is the snapshot when first popped up. He was definitely descending to an airport to my east. Fortunately, he stopped his decent at 500' above and then continued to descend after he passed me.

 

[Bill Watson]

Jose,

I think the main benefit of diversity is achieved at the major airports that provide surface ADS-B. On these major airports, mostly Class B airports, you can see traffic on the ground and on the runway final approach path. The GNS430W/530W don't support this application, but the GTN650/750 do. So if I was installing a GDL88 in an aircraft with a GTN unit, I would seriously consider adding the top antenna, otherwise not.

I display on an experimental GRT display. Does the latest Garmin equipment display traffic on both the map and synthetic vision views? Just curious.

If a plane passes in front of me, I actually see a symbol pass in front of me in syn visions. When I'm on the ground, I see a different kind of graphic in syn vision but I'm not quite sure what it means. But it's pretty cool at a busy airport seeing all the landing or departing traffic on the syn vision view.

 

[Bill Watson]

The intention of the other pilot is what always bothers me. This is the snapshot when first popped up. He was definitely descending to an airport to my east. Fortunately, he stopped his decent at 500' above and then continued to descend after he passed me.

View attachment 37983

Yes, intention is always the question!

That one sounds like at least he was aware of you even if he didn't have eyes on you.

 

[netsurfr]

Well that settles it as I don't fly out/in Class B airports plus my plane has 430Ws so not planning on moving to the GTN series. So does not having surface ADSB mean that planes on the ground will not be able to see planes in the pattern/short final (assuming they are ADSB out compliant)?

Thanks!

Jose,

I think the main benefit of diversity is achieved at the major airports that provide surface ADS-B. On these major airports, mostly Class B airports, you can see traffic on the ground and on the runway final approach path. The GNS430W/530W don't support this application, but the GTN650/750 do. So if I was installing a GDL88 in an aircraft with a GTN unit, I would seriously consider adding the top antenna, otherwise not.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Hate to say it, but... Traffic that close ... And you have time to snap screenshots on the iPad?! Or did you have a passenger doing it?

 

[VWGhiaBob]

I wonder if fewer people will call for FF after 2020 since they should be seeing everything the controller sees via ADS-B?

Sure, they can't see the NORDO cubs, but neither can ATC.


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I will! Cirrus already has ADSB-like traffic. But another pair of eyes...why not? Sometimes FF points out traffic before I see it on the MFD.

All it takes is a simple call to set up FF. Now someone else is watching your back. Why not use it, regardless of your equipment?

Just my 2 cents.

 

[ISaidRightTurns]

Depends, radar can see a lot more than just ADSB.

Yipee for TIS-B

 

[Bill Watson]

I wonder if fewer people will call for FF after 2020 since they should be seeing everything the controller sees via ADS-B?

I don't know about flight following but I know I will continue to file IFR for 99% of my flying.

I have had two 'curiously close' encounters this past year. They were both on VFR legs without FF. These are the only 2 VFR legs I can recall flying in the last 12 months. I'm sure I flew 1 or 2 more but I can't recall them.

IFR in VMC conditions is not a solution to avoiding close encounters but tends to put 500' of vertical separation in place and adds another set of eyes to the flight.

 

[John Collins]

With ADS-B traffic, you will not see all aircraft that can be seen by radar. Secondary radar will still see the transponder equipped aircraft that don't have mode C and primary radar will see non transponder traffic.

 

[dans2992]

Ok, but how much traffic out there has only mode A? ATC doesn't have altitude info on this traffic anyhow.

 

[John Collins]

Ok, but how much traffic out there has only mode A? ATC doesn't have altitude info on this traffic anyhow.

About 7 percent. That is why their call out includes "Altitude unknown". These targets do show up on mode S TIS, TCAD, and TCAS, just not on ADS-B TISB. The further you are from class B/C area, the more likely. Non transponder targets don't show up on any traffic system except primary radar.

 

[dans2992]

So the folks with only Mode A - is it typically because they purchased their transponder prior to Mode C existing?

If Mode A shows up on TCAS, I assume there can be no resolutions given, right?

 

[comanchepilot]

I hate to say this - but the only way a mid air was averted by ADS-B is if the other airplane had ADS-B out - because otherwise, what you received was a Mode S transponder traffic signal.

So I wonder- did the other aircraft have their tail number displayed on extended? If not - then it was a transponder signal output to your receiver and not true ADS-B. . .

 

[John Collins]

So the folks with only Mode A - is it typically because they purchased their transponder prior to Mode C existing?

If Mode A shows up on TCAS, I assume there can be no resolutions given, right?

I don't know. I have heard of a rumor that some pilots are cheap SOB's and just can't justify the extra expense. Maybe they occasionally use flight following or need help if they get lost, but never venture into class B or C areas or fly above 10,000 MSL.

I don't know how TCAS handles targets without mode C, but an RA would not make much sense without knowing the altitude.

 

[dans2992]

I hate to say this - but the only way a mid air was averted by ADS-B is if the other airplane had ADS-B out - because otherwise, what you received was a Mode S transponder traffic signal.

So I wonder- did the other aircraft have their tail number displayed on extended? If not - then it was a transponder signal output to your receiver and not true ADS-B. . .

Don't ground stations re-broadcast mode C/S only targets into TIS-B?

 

[dans2992]

I don't know. I have heard of a rumor that some pilots are cheap SOB's and just can't justify the extra expense. Maybe they occasionally use flight following or need help if they get lost, but never venture into class B or C areas or fly above 10,000 MSL.

I don't know how TCAS handles targets without mode C, but an RA would not make much sense without knowing the altitude.

I've just never heard of a "mode A only" transponder. Even if you could buy one, I am thinking it wouldn't save you much money....

 

[John Collins]

I've just never heard of a "mode A only" transponder. Even if you could buy one, I am thinking it wouldn't save you much money....

Every transponder that I know of that supports mode A/C has a separate encoder input for the mode C. The encoder can run from a few hundred dollars to over $10,000 if integrated into an altimeter. By not installing the encoder, the transponder will be mode A only. A typical encoder costs an extra 400 or 500 installed. The encoder needs to be plumed into the static line and increases the expense of the transponder and altimeter check. The 2012 survey data from the FAA indicates that there were estimated to be 14,328 aircraft with mode A only.

 

[comanchepilot]

Don't ground stations re-broadcast mode C/S only targets into TIS-B?

correctomundo - but he said ADs-B prevented an accident - in order for that to occur the other aircraft needed to be squitting ADS-B out

 

[dans2992]

correctomundo - but he said ADs-B prevented an accident - in order for that to occur the other aircraft needed to be squitting ADS-B out

Well, maybe _his_ ADS-B _in_ prevented an accident.