ADSB, FlightAware, Privacy...

[chemgeek]

Are you sure about anonymous mode, i.e., no tail number when squawking 1200, being available on all ADSB-out equipment? I thought that option was only available on UAT, and not on 1090ES. I'd love to be wrong about that.

It is my understanding that this option is not available on 1090ES.

BTW, not only is your tail number available on FlightAware and other sites, but I can pull up your tail number and GS on my NGT-9000 in flight if you are on my screen anywhere (like a 24 mile radius). In Central NY, I haven't noticed any aircraft I haven't been able to pull up a tail number for, so maybe there just aren't many squawking anonymously.

 

[MuseChaser]

It is my understanding that this option is not available on 1090ES.

BTW, not only is your tail number available on FlightAware and other sites, but I can pull up your tail number and GS on my NGT-9000 in flight if you are on my screen anywhere (like a 24 mile radius). In Central NY, I haven't noticed any aircraft I haven't been able to pull up a tail number for, so maybe there just aren't many squawking anonymously.

I've found the same thing, in the same area. I use a homebuilt Stratux, and I get the same info... tail number, altitude, climbing or descending, and graphic heading, anyway. Not sure about GS.. will have to check again.

Landed at VGC two days ago. NO traffic and the place was deserted... surprised. One of these days maybe we'll run into each other... figuratively, of course. It was an absolutely PERFECT gorgeous day.... surprised there weren't more people up and out.

 

[chemgeek]

I actually made a landing at Cortland 2 days ago while playing with my GoPro cams. Traffic at KVGC is way down right now. The glider club is winding down for the season, and the flight school activity is down with the college observing COVID protections. I think there are only 2-3 based planes flying regularly. One of the other frequent flyers is a former colleague at the college who also retired and bought a nice red Cherokee 180.

Thing is, we get a fuel credit of $960 per year off our hangar rent if we fly regularly. 50% of our tenants don't buy even one gallon a year. A waste of aircraft.

When all this COVID crap is over, we should cross paths at a neutral site that requires flying to and grab lunch.

 

[denverpilot]

I hereby nominate Nate to begin designing and implementing the NEXT NexGen air traffic system... please... sooner, rather than later...

Dude.

My solution would be GPS direct everywhere and radar or the much cheaper wide-area multilateralization receivers, and controllers can sort it all out if anything gets too close. LOL.

Definitely no way to identify anybody unless they get an old fashioned squawk code.

No thinky they’ll likey. Tim’s gonna hate.

But then again I know data networks and RF, not traffic management. That’s where they went wrong. Wrong specialists designing the wrong parts.

I’m also no good at watching for bad guys in the War on a Plant and face planting Martha King remotely via Sheriff, which seems the common misuse of ADS-B data these days. Ha.

Think I’ll stick to my lane. I don’t have any beef with Martha. Or people who want to transport banned plants in leased airplanes, really.

The entire concept is dumb. Bad guys don’t squawk. The good guys transmitting more data isn’t really useful. Especially if bad guys can transmit as anyone else anytime they like, which is easy to do.

 

[MuseChaser]

I actually made a landing at Cortland 2 days ago while playing with my GoPro cams. Traffic at KVGC is way down right now. The glider club is winding down for the season, and the flight school activity is down with the college observing COVID protections. I think there are only 2-3 based planes flying regularly. One of the other frequent flyers is a former colleague at the college who also retired and bought a nice red Cherokee 180.

Thing is, we get a fuel credit of $960 per year off our hangar rent if we fly regularly. 50% of our tenants don't buy even one gallon a year. A waste of aircraft.

When all this COVID crap is over, we should cross paths at a neutral site that requires flying to and grab lunch.

Sounds great. Have you been to Cherry Ridge recently? That'd be a fun place to converge. Would love to see your plane sometime.

 

[Bob Noel]

I hereby nominate Nate to begin designing and implementing the NEXT NexGen air traffic system... please... sooner, rather than later...

He would quickly run afoul of various FAA empires and fiefdoms, NIH, and more stumbling blocks that you could possibly imagine.

 

[wsuffa]

I started to answer that, but couldn’t get past the fact that data networking ineptitude at an international scale, just means it’s an even dumber number of engineers than I thought.

As long as it takes to get an international standard done, and as much politics is involved, we're talking a process that started 25 years ago. At least. Nobody cared about security back then for this sort of thing (and certain folks wouldn't want it tightly secure anyway). The politics are - stunning. It's not all on the engineers. If we meet up someday, I can tell some stories (not ADSB itself, but other international standards).

I hereby nominate Nate to begin designing and implementing the NEXT NexGen air traffic system... please... sooner, rather than later...

"Sooner" for something like that is probably pushing 30 years. Or more.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

FWIW, while FlightAware, FlightRadar24, etc can get your position via ADS-B even if you are part of the LADD (formerly BARR) program, they are contractually obligated by the FAA to not show your position via any means or they'll lose their FAA feed.

ADS-B Exchange does not have an FAA feed, though, so they don't care and you'll always show up there. However, their site is trash and finding anything about you after your flight is pretty difficult last I checked. It's been a little while though.

The real wet part of the blanket is the part where, if I'm correct, I'd have to actually file a separate tax return for my "LLC." I do my own taxes, and having to do two returns instead of just our one joint return every year is a real turnoff. Is that accurate?

Yes. Depending on what sort of entity the LLC really is (LLCs aren't really recognized for tax purposes, they've gotta be something else IIRC), there's one of a few forms that you file - 1120S for an S corp, etc. Then you get a K-1 that shows your stake and gain/loss in the company and that gets filed with your personal taxes.

Honestly, I do find it to be kind of a pain in the ass. If I didn't have a partner in the plane I probably wouldn't do it. Gotta keep track of all the bills separately and do more accounting than I find worthwhile (which is, "a few hours a year.")

It died on October 26th, 2001.

I miss Russ Feingold.

I started to answer that, but couldn’t get past the fact that data networking ineptitude at an international scale, just means it’s an even dumber number of engineers than I thought.

None of us is as dumb as all of us.

Are you sure about anonymous mode, i.e., no tail number when squawking 1200, being available on all ADSB-out equipment? I thought that option was only available on UAT, and not on 1090ES. I'd love to be wrong about that.

You're not wrong. No anonymous mode available on 1090.

 

[Doug Reid]

When you activate the anonymous mode on UAT, your N number is replaced with the word PRIVATE...your altitude, speed and direction are not altered. I have UAT in my planes..so far, Flightaware is more interested in tracking 1090ES.

 

[Ravioli]

@MuseChaser et al: I missed a NOT in my prior post. Anonymous mode is NOT available on all ADS-B devices. Sorry for the confusion. I have edited prior post accordingly.

 

[jpskies]

I received the following email yesterday from my fellow pilot based at KCMA. This ADSB problem is serious and become ugly.
---
Friends,

One of our members received a very concerning voicemail message this past Sunday, apparently associated with the operation of the member's plane.

On Sunday morning at about 10:00 a.m., the member was downwind in the pattern at KCMA, over or slightly north of the 101. They recall being at about 1,000 feet, and Flight Aware confirms that. At about that time, the member received a voicemail message threatening to put a bullet in the member's head (those exact words) over something associated with the operation of the plane. The beginning of the message is a little unclear, but the caller on the message had the plane's tail number and registered address.

The pilot denies overflying any houses at an unsafe or inappropriate altitude, and a review of Flight Aware seems to confirm that. The pilot says they were with a CFI, who confirms that the pattern and approach were normal.

Has anyone else received a similar call, or know of anyone who has? If so, please let us know.

Thanks very much.

 

[Groundpounder]

I received the following email yesterday from my fellow pilot based at KCMA. This ADSB problem is serious and become ugly.
---
Friends,

One of our members received a very concerning voicemail message this past Sunday, apparently associated with the operation of the member's plane.

On Sunday morning at about 10:00 a.m., the member was downwind in the pattern at KCMA, over or slightly north of the 101. They recall being at about 1,000 feet, and Flight Aware confirms that. At about that time, the member received a voicemail message threatening to put a bullet in the member's head (those exact words) over something associated with the operation of the plane. The beginning of the message is a little unclear, but the caller on the message had the plane's tail number and registered address.

The pilot denies overflying any houses at an unsafe or inappropriate altitude, and a review of Flight Aware seems to confirm that. The pilot says they were with a CFI, who confirms that the pattern and approach were normal.

Has anyone else received a similar call, or know of anyone who has? If so, please let us know.

Thanks very much.

That could have just as easily happened with someone sitting in their yard with a scanner. Not sure what ADS-B has to do with it. And psycho people are going to be psycho no matter what data is available to them.

 

[Bob Noel]

do we really need to make it easier for the nutjobs?

 

[Groundpounder]

do we really need to make it easier for the nutjobs?

I guarantee you that there have been more lives saved because of ADS-B than have been taken by nutjobs that used ADS-B to facilitate their nut-jobbyness.

 

[Bob Noel]

I guarantee you that there have been more lives saved because of ADS-B than have been taken by nutjobs that used ADS-B to facilitate their nut-jobbyness.

link?

 

[Groundpounder]

link?

No links to lives saved cause of ADS-B, because its almost impossible to collect data on something that didn't happen. Also no links to people that got killed from a nut job that used ADS-B to help in their endeavors, because it hasn't happened.

But I have a good friend that is here alive because of it, and there is a good chance he would not have been so lucky without it.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

do we really need to make it easier for the nutjobs?

Make what easier for nutjobs? Make it easier for them to expose themselves as nutjobs? Sure, why wouldn't you? Making murder threats over the phone is a crime in some jurisdictions. And phone calls are easily tracible. I don't see a down side to making it easier for criminals to out themselves as being criminals.

 

[jpskies]

That could have just as easily happened with someone sitting in their yard with a scanner. Not sure what ADS-B has to do with it. And psycho people are going to be psycho no matter what data is available to them.

Perhaps FAA should protect the registration data? One can never get the car owner's information from the license plate number.

 

[Barry]

Thanks for this post, is timely for me as well. Some of this seems a bit confusing to me, I'm trying to understand it all. I just sent an email to the LADD to have me removed from FAA Source feed. I got a response it has been processed and implemented the first Thursday of the month.

My main focus at the moment is getting my flights off of Flightaware. I have family who know my tail number that like to see where i've been via Flightaware, and frankly i don't want that (get jealous when i don't come visit them vs others). I do have ADSB-out, and do file flight plans (IFR) from time to time. Will signing up for LADD accomplish getting me off of free public tracking sights like Flightaware? Or do i also need to go down the route of implementing PIA (i am a performance plus user foreflight already) because of ADSB out and flight plan filing. Sorry if this is clear here already, but wanted to check.

 

[EdFred]

It wont keep you off adsbexchange they don't abide by the requests to the FAA.

 

[Barry]

Ok thanks much. I just reread the whole post and saw the below from flyingcheesehead (great name). Hopefully as described LADD will get me off Flightaware. I don't think my family is sophisticated enough to look in adsbexchange . Will confirm in Oct LADD hopefully accomplishes my goal, if not on to PIA I suppose.

FWIW, while FlightAware, FlightRadar24, etc can get your position via ADS-B even if you are part of the LADD (formerly BARR) program, they are contractually obligated by the FAA to not show your position via any means or they'll lose their FAA feed.

ADS-B Exchange does not have an FAA feed, though, so they don't care and you'll always show up there. However, their site is trash and finding anything about you after your flight is pretty difficult last I checked. It's been a little while though.

 

[EdFred]

You could always change your tail number and not tell them the new tail number

$5 to the FAA and some vinyl decals.

 

[Barry]

Just to confirm, if I've been implemented on LADD, I won't show up on Flightaware even if I file a flight plan and have a swawk # for IFR and flight following and such? If the bottom line is Flightaware won't show my flight information regardless if I've signed up on LADD, that will satisfy my need.

 

[Hang 4]

It seemed to take about 1 day on the internet for the name behind "Wife Approved LLC" to become public.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

You could always change your tail number and not tell them the new tail number

$5 to the FAA and some vinyl decals.

Or, just reprogram number transmitted by your ADS-B out and save $5.00. N713NR would be a good choice.

 

[AlphaMike]

This has been a very interesting thread! I've long known that my flights and information were out there and easy to get. Its never really bothered me but I defiantly support MuseChaser and his opinion! I wonder why AOPA hasn't got involved in this? Or if they have I didn't find anything with a simple google search. I was once told that AOPA was the NRA for pilots and GA. I would expect the NRA too loooose their minds if there was a web site that you could look and see who owned which gun and how and when they used it..

 

[denverpilot]

I wonder why AOPA hasn't got involved in this?

They need a completely different database that doesn’t need to be public to remain public (opt-out instead of opt-in, really) to be able to spam everyone with their marketing material so they survive.

They have zero interest in fighting for pilot privacy. Huge money lost for them if they got all the databases closed or opt-in only.

 

[Bob Noel]

... I wonder why AOPA hasn't got involved in this? ....

because AOPA was part of the problem in the first place.

Don't get me started back down the path of ADS-B-could-have-been-so-useful-but-the-numerous-groups-screwed-it-up.

 

[Daleandee]

None of us is as dumb as all of us.

I've been considering the ADSB upgrade but have hesitated. This is one reason & cost is another. But my main reason is that I hardly travel where I would need it but I do have friends I like to visit that are under the mode C for Charlotte & Atlanta so I'll likely upgrade in a few months when the transponder is due.

As to the statement above, we have a variation at work on a big sign that reads ... "None of us is as smart as all of us!" For a very long time I have wanted to print a photo of our all seeing, all knowing boss and put it over the "N" so that you see his photo with the statement, "one of us is as smart as all of us!"

 

[wsuffa]

None of us is as dumb as all of us.
.

To err is human, to really f*** up requires a committee.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Just to confirm, if I've been implemented on LADD, I won't show up on Flightaware even if I file a flight plan and have a swawk # for IFR and flight following and such? If the bottom line is Flightaware won't show my flight information regardless if I've signed up on LADD, that will satisfy my need.

That is correct.

BTW, to expedite getting it off FlightAware specifically, you can separately make the request directly to FlightAware at asdi-block@flightaware.com as well. That won't get you off of the other sites, but it'll get you off FlightAware a lot faster than waiting for the FAA to update the list.

 

[Barry]

ok great, thanks for that info @ flightaware! Supposedly my LADD will go into effect Thursday of this week, since it is the first Thursday of the month. I've got a flight the day after @ Friday i can use as a test.

 

[John Collins]

Just got off the phone with a pleasant, helpful representative at fltplan.com, one of the four listed third party flight ID providers. Availing oneself of that service costs $250/yr/plane, and he wasn't aware of any free third party flight ID providers. I only have one plane, so that's a good thing I guess, but still.. maintaining one's privacy shouldn't cost $250/yr. For now, I guess I'll be skipping the PI(T)A process. I've completed the LADD request. As soon as the FAA fulfills it, I'll run my N-number through flight aware again after a flight and see just what pops up.

In the mean time, expecting nothing but remaining ever hopeful, I'll contact the AOPA and my local congress-critters and ask for their assistance in helping us little plane GA folks enjoy our planes the same way we all get to enjoy our cars (unless you have an EZPass or drive through the zillion locations where license plate readers are installed)... I have spoken in person many times (and even accompanied him while he played saxophone) with our Senator Emeritus, John DeFrancisco, and have great respect for him. A good listener, and a man of principle. I wish he hadn't retired; he'd be the first one I'd call.

If you use ForeFlight and purchase the performance plus subscription, you can obtain a FFL call sign and use PIA. So if you are already a ForeFlight customer, the PIA may be free, or an extra $100 or an extra $200 depending on your current subscription.

 

[MuseChaser]

If you use ForeFlight and purchase the performance plus subscription, you can obtain a FFL call sign and use PIA. So if you are already a ForeFlight customer, the PIA may be free, or an extra $100 or an extra $200 depending on your current subscription.

Thanks, John. I use iFlyGPS on Android stuff.

Another data point in this discussion... I flew around yesterday sight seeing with my son for about an hour, 3500' heading east and 4500' heading west, and covering about 80 miles or so in various directions. Out of curiosity, this time I did not use flight following and I stayed out of Charlie airspace. The flight did NOT show up on Flightaware. That's unfortunate, in that there is now motivation to NOT use flight following, thereby decreasing safety.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

That's unfortunate, in that there is now motivation to NOT use flight following, thereby decreasing safety.

If you want to choose not to use flight following, that is your choice. But at that point, the decrease in safety is due to your choices not anyone elses.

 

[MuseChaser]

If you want to choose not to use flight following, that is your choice. But at that point, the decrease in safety is due to your choices not anyone elses.

And being forced to choose BETWEEN degrees of safety and degrees of privacy is a good thing? Wouldn't it be better that they NOT be at odds with each other? That was my point. Don't believe I ever discussed what my choice was.. only that it is unfortunate that motivation exists for not using flight following. I rarely fly without flight following. I did so yesterday as an experiment to see if FlightAware would publish the flight.

 

[EdFred]

And being forced to choose BETWEEN degrees of safety and degrees of privacy is a good thing? Wouldn't it be better that they NOT be at odds with each other? That was my point. Don't believe I ever discussed what my choice was.. only that it is unfortunate that motivation exists for not using flight following. I rarely fly without flight following. I did so yesterday as an experiment to see if FlightAware would publish the flight.

Wait 'til they start charging for using IFR and people start flying without talking to anyone and flying in the clag.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Thanks, John. I use iFlyGPS on Android stuff.

Another data point in this discussion... I flew around yesterday sight seeing with my son for about an hour, 3500' heading east and 4500' heading west, and covering about 80 miles or so in various directions. Out of curiosity, this time I did not use flight following and I stayed out of Charlie airspace. The flight did NOT show up on Flightaware. That's unfortunate, in that there is now motivation to NOT use flight following, thereby decreasing safety.

If you have a FlightAware account, and go into your preferences you can click a box for "Show Position-Only Flights" and it should show up... So not getting flight following isn't really giving you better privacy.

 

[MuseChaser]

If you have a FlightAware account, and go into your preferences you can click a box for "Show Position-Only Flights" and it should show up... So not getting flight following isn't really giving you better privacy.

Hmmm...interesting. I don't have a FlightAware account. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that my flight yesterday is visible to anyone with a flightaware account, but not to me because I don't have one?

Edit: just checked again, still without an account. This notice was on the page, though...and yesterday's flight was not..curious...

 

[denverpilot]

The flight did NOT show up on Flightaware. That's unfortunate, in that there is now motivation to NOT use flight following, thereby decreasing safety.

Not understanding this sentiment. Flight Following is between you and the controllers. Not showing up on some public map doesn’t change the level of safety it may or may not provide.

(The folks I’ve known who went down on FF say it certainly sped up SAR response significantly, but that has nothing to do with a public map of their location. The controller handled all that.)