ADS-B out simple ???

[pmanton]

I got a Sportys ad in the mail that advertised a Stratus ESG transponder for 3 K that claimed to solve all your ADS-B out problems.

Can it be that simple?
Paul
Salome, AZ

 

[bnt83]

I got a Sportys ad in the mail that advertised a Stratus ESG transponder for 3 K that claimed to solve all your ADS-B out problems.

Can it be that simple?
Paul
Salome, AZ

There are a couple out there that do now. Still requires a top mounted GPS antenna and running coax to it. (All assuming you gave no panel mounted GPS receiver and just a legacy/dumb mode C transponder like most of us do) There could be altitude encoder compatibility issues but hard to say without research.

 

[James331]

Why would it need to be more complicated.

Heck as time goes on towards 2020, I bet these will become more and more of a drop in plug and play and become cheaper and cheaper.

There was one I liked that would put in a generic output code if you squawked 1200, to me that's a HUGE benifit when it comes to privacy and security.

For me I'm a couple wires and a ES upgrade away from ADSB, but I'll still need to think about it, for my normal mission I really don't NEED it and I'd wager there is going to be some back peddling as we get closer to 2020, frankly I can fly in the IFR system just fine right now with my 330 (non Es), so being forced into ADSB, I'm not getting a real benifit for my hard earned cash.

 

[steingar]

The Stratus was originally advertised to have a panel into which you could plug your Stratus ADSB receiver such that it got power and a connection to the external antenna. If that's the case the Stratus will be a no-brainer, since it is by far the cheapest way to get both ADSB out and in. I emphasize if, since that particular feature no longer appears on Appareo's website.

 

[ARFlyer]

You may also want to take a look at the Lynx box. ADS-B in and out all-in-one unit for $6500. It comes with a touchscreen so you can use the FIS-B traffic and weather.

I think the normal price is $7500, however according to my Avionics shop friend they've reduced the price to $6500 to the end of the year.

http://creativestoodio.com/june_lynx/phone/index.html

 

[Challenged]

I'm currently using a SkyguardTWX portable In/Out device with AHRS, but in order to get compliant, I'm considering going with the Garmin GTX335 (https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/in-the-air/general-aviation/transponders/gtx-335/prod140939.html). I don't have a certified WAAS source in my plane, so the $3795 model that includes the GPS is probably what I'll do. Once I have that installed to comply with the 2020 mandate, I'll just use the Skyguard for AHRS and ADSB in only. I like the idea of doing ADS-B out only on the certified side of things, because it keeps my costs down and then I can continually upgrade to different ADS-B in options as time marches on. I primarily use iFly on an Android tablet for traffic/weather, but I like messing around with the various aviation apps, so keeping my "IN" options open going forward appeals to my tech side.

 

[dillardrg]

I do not plan to install ADS-B in or out. I don't need it where I fly and spending upwards of 10% of the value of my airplane is not something that I want to do.

If/when I decide to sell the penalty is something that is no factor to me.

 

[FORANE]

I installed ads-b in/out for $679 per plane and had the anonymous mode when squawking 1200 that James331 referred to. It is only for experimentals and the price has since increased but the install was easy and overall I am satisfied with the Navworx ads600-exp boxes.

 

[iamtheari]

We have a GNS 430W and a KT-76A. That puts us in the 90% of the GA fleet with that exact setup. I will need ADS-B Out to fly to the Class B where much of my family lives and it should be 1090ES so I can fly into Canada sometimes. I use ForeFlight and Stratux so my leanings are KT-74, GTX 335, or GTX 345. I like the 345 because it will give me traffic and weather on ForeFlight and the 430W without any batteries to find an outlet to charge up before flying home. I like the others because they are probably much less expensive, especially the KT-74 when you add installation costs to replace the KT-76A.

Has anyone done one of those upgrades already and has a story to share, whether good, bad, or just total cost breakdown?

 

[James331]

Just a little advice, wait till right before 2020, don't be a pioneer.

 

[iamtheari]

Just a little advice, wait till right before 2020, don't be a pioneer.

It's good advice. Dysentery isn't fun. Our airport is planning a runway upgrade that will result in it being closed about 8 months in 2018 or 2019 so that's when I would aim to have the work done. How else can I keep my flying budget stretched when the airport is closed?

 

[BillTIZ]

I do not plan to install ADS-B in or out. I don't need it where I fly and spending upwards of 10% of the value of my airplane is not something that I want to do.

If/when I decide to sell the penalty is something that is no factor to me.

Never planning to go to BNA, or need to overfly the Class C to get to the other side?
Never planning to fly above 10,000MSL?

 

[korben88]

You may also want to take a look at the Lynx box. ADS-B in and out all-in-one unit for $6500. It comes with a touchscreen so you can use the FIS-B traffic and weather.

I think the normal price is $7500, however according to my Avionics shop friend they've reduced the price to $6500 to the end of the year.

http://creativestoodio.com/june_lynx/phone/index.html

Yes, buy this one. Now. All of you.....

I want my new office =)

 

[John Collins]

There was one I liked that would put in a generic output code if you squawked 1200, to me that's a HUGE benifit when it comes to privacy and security.

For me I'm a couple wires and a ES upgrade away from ADSB, but I'll still need to think about it, for my normal mission I really don't NEED it and I'd wager there is going to be some back peddling as we get closer to 2020, frankly I can fly in the IFR system just fine right now with my 330 (non Es), so being forced into ADSB, I'm not getting a real benifit for my hard earned cash.

The generic output code (anonymous mode) is only available on a UAT based ADS-B Out system with the additional condition that you do not have a Mode S transponder (ADS-B or not) installed. With your 330 non ES, you can't use anonymous mode.

 

[dillardrg]

Never planning to go to BNA, or need to overfly the Class C to get to the other side?
Never planning to fly above 10,000MSL?

You got it.

 

[Single Engine Land]

ADDS B Out installed for $2,435 - Here is my ADS-B Story.

I have ADS-B in via a Gamin GDL 39 and Area 796. All I needed was ADS-B out to be legal. Appareo makes an all in one box (the Stratus ESG ADS-B Out and WAAS GPS) for only $2,995. Size-wise this is a replacement for most King and Narco transponders. I had a Narco AT-165 that was about 10 years old.

I emailed all the shops with 250 miles of my home base (KLVK) and found one that had a reasonable price for the install. Based on my research this only involved adding a tray, GPS antenna and re-pinning the connector. Far less work than a UAT 978 install. Shops up and down the state were coming in around $1,100 to $1,500 for the install.

Airtronics in Jackson CA called me about an hour after they got my email. After asking a few questions this shop made a firm quote over the phone for 6 hrs labor at $90 hr for the install, $540 total. It's really not that difficult to install a Stratus ESG. Pull the tray, re-pin the connector, mount the antenna, configure using the menus and ground test. It was a 30 minute flight to Jackson California for the install. Arrived early in the morning, done the same day.

Here is something I did not expect. Airtronics paid me $600 for my Narco AT165. That was more than fair. Apparently there is a very healthy secondary market right now for our used transponders in countries that do not require ADS-B. Airtronics has a relationship with an exporter. This is a unique situation that is not going to last when tons of transponders start to get replaced as we near 2020. Even more reason to upgrade now. I believe if you wait supply and demand will make your existing transponder worth less as trade-in.

Another reason to do this now. We are talking about 1090 ES. My read on was 1090 ES is that it was kind of "reserved" for the big metal. GA was supposed to install the "lower cost" UAT 978 units. Well the increased cost of installing a 978 solution does not makes sense when compared to the lower cost of installing the Stratus and even the Garmin 1090 units in most GA aircraft. Also, you can't fly to Mexico or Canada (Belize or anywhere else for that matter) without 1090 ES. So in my opinion it won’t be long that the 1090 band gets congested and the FAA comes down with a directive around to save the band for the the jets and and carriers flying over 10,000 ft. routinely. I believe getting 1090 ES now might make sense.

Here is another cost savings hint. There was no need for a replacement transponder antenna. My spike antenna was fine. Many of the shops I contacted up and down the state insisted on installing a dual band "shark-fin" dual antenna for an additional $250. This is not necessary. If you are receiving ADS-B In via another device (i.e. Garmin GDL 39) there is no need for the dual band antenna. The Stratus ADS-B OUT is 1090 only. The unit is not going to receive ADS-B IN and there is no need to waste the money on a new antenna. My advice is to move on to another shop if they insist on installing the dual band antenna for ADS-B OUT only.

Here is another cost savings. Appero includes the external WAAS GPS antenna in the $2,995 price. I had mine mounted foot behind the rear window on my Cessna 182. Garmin's all-in one transponder looks competitive until you find out they don't include the GPS antenna. That is an additional $895. And Garmin is insisting on a dual band antenna transponder antenna even if you don't need ADS-B in. Another $250.

To get the $500 rebate you will need to fly for an hour. Yes, you must do the four 360 degree turns and the 90 degree crossing. The climbs and descents will occur naturally. A quick flight for 30 minutes did not cut it the first time I tried to certify. I recommend you fly slowly for an hour above 7,500 ft and do all the maneuvers required.

I did not certify within the airspace that you are required to have ADS-B. I was in class E airspace at 8,500 feet flying from Livermore CA to Willows CA. I had an excellent controller at Travis Air Force Base work with me to handle the maneuvers. I let her know what I was doing and she was extremely helpful. Trying to accomplish this within the Mode-C veil seemed a bit cumbersome given all the Class B airspace I would have to avoid. We need to clear this myth up. You do not have to certify within the airspace ADS-B is required. At least that was my experience.

After a hour and 10 minutes I landed in Willows CA. I waited 20 minutes and submitted my ADS-B Performance Report request via my iPhone. Then I sat back and enjoyed an excellent lunch at Nancy's Airport Cafe. About 25 minutes later I checked my email and I had my sold four GREEN bars on the ADS-B performance report along with the incentive code required to claim my FAA rebate.

SUMMARY:

Stratus ESG $2,995

Install $540

Trade $-600

Rebat $-500

Out of pocket cost (minus taxes) - $2,435

Cost of a new Mode-C transponder is $1,900 without installation. So if you are in need of a transponder now, shell out another $500 bucks, find an honest installer, and become compliant. I was tempted to go with Garmin but I would have spent more. $634 for the WAAS GPS antenna and $250 for the dual band out antenna. $884 savings with Stratus ESG. I say go for it while the FAA Rebate and the value of your trade-in is still high.

 

[gismo]

ADDS B Out installed for $2,435 - Here is my ADS-B Story.

Another reason to do this now. We are talking about 1090 ES. My read on was 1090 ES is that it was kind of "reserved" for the big metal. GA was supposed to install the "lower cost" UAT 978 units. Well the increased cost of installing a 978 solution does not makes sense when compared to the lower cost of installing the Stratus and even the Garmin 1090 units in most GA aircraft. Also, you can't fly to Mexico or Canada (Belize or anywhere else for that matter) without 1090 ES. So in my opinion it won’t be long that the 1090 band gets congested and the FAA comes down with a directive around to save the band for the the jets and and carriers flying over 10,000 ft. routinely. I believe getting 1090 ES now might make sense.

AFaIK there is no scheduled requirement for ADS-B out for typical GA piston airplanes in any country other than the US. Mexico has indicated that they MAY require it above 10k MSL but there's no firm date and Canada definitely isn't planning on implementing such a requirement although they do say you can get "better" ATC service with it.

 

[Single Engine Land]

Sorry about implying you can't fly anywhere with UAT 978. You can, you just need to keep your 1090 Mode-C transponder working and certified every two years. In fact, I am not sure that you can dump your old Mode-C 1090 transponder when you add the UAT 978. With UAT 978 you have two units to certify every two years as opposed to one if you get the Garmin GTX 335 or Stratus ESG .

 

[Pilawt]

I did not certify within the airspace that you are required to have ADS-B. I was in class E airspace at 8,500 feet flying from Livermore CA to Willows CA. I had an excellent controller at Travis Air Force Base work with me to handle the maneuvers. I let her know what I was doing and she was extremely helpful. Trying to accomplish this within the Mode-C veil seemed a bit cumbersome given all the Class B airspace I would have to avoid. We need to clear this myth up. You do not have to certify within the airspace ADS-B is required. At least that was my experience.

My experience was different. After my Appareo ESGi was installed a couple of weeks ago, I flew the entire recommended flight test protocol (over an hour) in Class E airspace, below 10,000', about 40 miles north of here near Kelso WA, away from the heavy traffic in the Portland area.

The GAIRS Report (attached) came back as a fail -- the equipment passed the performance checks and the flight "met ADS-B Out rule requirements," but "The Performance Monitor could NOT validate that the flight operation consisted of at least 30 minutes in the airspace defined in 14 CFR 91.225. Please ensure the flight meets Program requirements for required flight time in the required airspace."

So I went back up the next day and just did lazy circles for half an hour in Class E airspace above the Portland Class C ceiling, and within the lateral limits of the Class C. Portland Approach was cooperative (and maybe a little bemused) with flight following for this exercise. The GAIRS Report this time came back all green.

Were you at least 30 minutes in the Mode C veil, or above or below a Class B or C? KLVK is within the veil, so just your time in 91.225 airspace leaving and returning may have been enough to satisfy the requirement. In my unsuccessful flight, the report said I was 11 minutes in 91.225 airspace. That must have been the time I was below the floor of Portland's Class C (technically not 91.225 airspace, but within lateral limits) departing and returning to my home field.

 

[wayne]

Never planning to go to BNA, or need to overfly the Class C to get to the other side?
Never planning to fly above 10,000MSL?

Or inside a 30 nm Mode C ring, even outside the Class B space.

I fly out of airports on the northside of Atlanta that are inside the Mode C ring or so near, LZU, that an extended downwind could get you there. Doing the GPS 7 into LZU would get one inside the ring.

Not everyone is in that category though. Some can just keep on going without it.

The Baron I'm flying is ADS-B compliant now, so we're good-to-go.

 

[Single Engine Land]

My experience was different. After my Appareo ESGi was installed a couple of weeks ago, I flew the entire recommended flight test protocol (over an hour) in Class E airspace, below 10,000', about 40 miles north of here near Kelso WA, away from the heavy traffic in the Portland area.

The GAIRS Report (attached) came back as a fail -- the equipment passed the performance checks and the flight "met ADS-B Out rule requirements," but "The Performance Monitor could NOT validate that the flight operation consisted of at least 30 minutes in the airspace defined in 14 CFR 91.225. Please ensure the flight meets Program requirements for required flight time in the required airspace."

So I went back up the next day and just did lazy circles for half an hour in Class E airspace above the Portland Class C ceiling, and within the lateral limits of the Class C. Portland Approach was cooperative (and maybe a little bemused) with flight following for this exercise. The GAIRS Report this time came back all green.

Were you at least 30 minutes in the Mode C veil, or above or below a Class B or C? KLVK is within the veil, so just your time in 91.225 airspace leaving and returning may have been enough to satisfy the requirement. In my unsuccessful flight, the report said I was 11 minutes in 91.225 airspace. That must have been the time I was below the floor of Portland's Class C (technically not 91.225 airspace, but within lateral limits) departing and returning to my home field.

 

[Single Engine Land]

I flew northeast from Livermore and exited the Mode-C veil in about 5-7 min. Here was my track: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n71809/#b3ff88f

If I had seen your post before I made this flight I would have flown to Sacramento and stayed above their Class C 4,100 ft ceiling to qualify.