ADHD Diagnosis?

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Hi everyone,

I'm a 16 year old male who is looking for his initial third class medical. Over ten years ago, my parents took me for a psychiatric evaluation, where the doctor declared authoritatively that I had ADHD in about 30 seconds. My parents didn't like that, so they either declined to take a prescription or declined to fill the prescription (I don't know which parent's recollection is correct).

Ten years later, it seems that the diagnosis wasn't quite on the mark - I'm an almost straight-A student in AP/Honors courses at my highly ranked public high school. I've taught myself to concentrate very effectively.

I guess my question is do I need to disclose the diagnosis? After 10 years, having been a member of 7 insurance plans since, and having lived in 3 different countries since, will there be any records which can be pulled regarding this diagnosis? If the answer is "maybe," is it a risk worth taking?

I can't afford to spend 3 months of salary on a psych evaluation to overturn the diagnosis - I can barely pay for my flight lessons and other miscellaneous spending as it is. Unfortunately, I got a B+ is AP Physics, so my parents have decided not to pay for anything relating to flying to "avoid distractions" - and apparently complications relating to my medical are part of that category.

Finally, if I got caught omitting the diagnosis, is being unaware of the diagnosis' existence a defense which would stand up? My parents mentioned this whole issue for the first time yesterday, after I mentioned in passing that I was so glad that I didn't have ADHD. What if they had never told me? I wouldn't have disclosed because I wouldn't have known...
 
I can only imagine what would happen when some Kennedy spawn who got a stimulant Rx for 'focus' and extra time on the SATs and later wants to get their pilot certificate just like John John did.

A sane policy absent some case file named "Kennedy" is too much to hope for. If we were an ordinarily corrupt country (an honest politician being one that stays bought), someone at the FAA would be rousted by the Kennedy file landing on his desk to give enough of a sh** to change this. As things are, however, the next Captain Kennedy will just get a waiver or some flavor or another and everything will proceed as before for the plebes.

OP, we've seen this movie before. Take Dr. Bruce's advice when he comes round to give it.
 
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My goal is CPL/CFII, so I do "need" a back seat. Once I set a goal, I achieve it - I'm not going to give up my plans because some quack thought a 5 year old acting like a 5 year old merited harmful chemicals.

I agree that good grades don't necessarily mean that I don't have ADD - I very well might have it -but my grades illustrate that once I set a goal, I have laser- like focus to achieve it. In essence, if I have it, I've learned to manage it.
 
On another note, I have no idea who the doctor was. My PCP has no record of a referral, and I have no idea what the insurance plan at that point was, so I can't track him down to get more info or a letter...
 
>10 years ago, with likely zero paper or recoverable electronic trail... I would have no recollection of any such hypothetical conversation with the parents and move on from there.

I was also under the general impression that a diagnosis of ADHD at that young an age is generally not done except in extreme cases.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
I was also under the general impression that a diagnosis of ADHD at that young an age is generally not done except in extreme cases.
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Lol, when I was younger, every other kid was on being fed pills like candy, the docs and pharm guys were raking it in on that BS.

Good job to your parents for actually being parents and telling that pill salesman (by no means deserving of the title Dr) to shove it.

Id just move forward like it never happened, you never got the rx, never got any pills, wouldn't worry about it
 
As much as I empathize with your position -- this wanton diagnosing of ADD / AHDH being, in my opinion, a systematized and state-sanctioned form of child abuse -- two things do bother me in your case.

The first problem is that you're looking for information about whether or not you can get away with lying on a form upon which, for better or worse, affixing your signature to a lie is a federal felony. That's problematic.

The second problem is that there's a chance, albeit a small one, that the diagnosis, although improperly arrived at, was correct. A few of them are, you know. Very few, in my opinion, but some. If you indeed have ADHD, you might be endangering your own life (and others) by embarking on a flying career.

Again, I think this whole ADD / ADHD debacle is a national shame that amounts to state-sanctioned, systematized child abuse. It's one of my pet peeves, to say the least. But some people actually do have these conditions, and I think you owe it to yourself to making sure that you don't before you possibly risk your life.

With regard to whether you can get away with lying, I really have no comment. That's a matter of conscience for you to decide. Making sure you're actually fit to fly, however, could be a matter of life and death, so I suggest you give it some thought.

-Rich
 
Jeff Oslick said:
>10 years ago, with likely zero paper or recoverable electronic trail... I would have no recollection of any such hypothetical conversation with the parents and move on from there.

I was also under the general impression that a diagnosis of ADHD at that young an age is generally not done except in extreme cases.
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I am not the OP.

Agreed, so you were, what like 6 years old at the time? Plenty of people here will say "oh my god, don't do it, you'll get caught, the sky will fall, it's unethical, etc.".

My honest advice, forget it ever happened and carry on. It won't matter, and you won't get "caught". If you do, well you were six years old, you would have had no way to really know, so you have an "out". I'm sure this will be post will be met with extreme contempt by others, but that's the real world, welcome to it.
 
Thanks for the feedback guys.. However, if it turns out that there miraculously is a trail leading back to this diagnosis and I didn't report, what would the consequences be? Would ignorance be a valid defense that would result in merely having to go through the psych eval later on, or would I likely end up in more serious trouble? I don't mind some amount of risk, but I want to know what I'd be getting into if I follow your suggestions...

As for RJM62, I appreciate your response quite a bit. It has made me go back and consider an ethical questions, both on a personal and legal level, which I skated over before. I'm going to post my justifications for the problematic bits, and I'd appreciate it if you can try to poke holes.. There's no better way to strengthen arguments, moral or otherwise, than to hear the counterarguments.
RJM62 said:
The first problem is that you're looking for information about whether or not you can get away with lying on a form upon which, for better or worse, affixing your signature to a lie is a federal felony. That's problematic.
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I'm not sure it's quite lying, as I don't actually genuinely know if any of it actually ever happened. The only thing I have to go on is some hazy memories from my parents. I did my due diligence and attempted to find out more about which doctor was involved, when it happened, etc., but I was unable to find any details. My PCP's office doesn't know about any diagnosis. My health records are a mess, since I've lived in 4 countries in the past 10 years, each with its own policies and practices, and computerized health record systems are relatively new.
Even if I spent the next 2 months trying to find out more details of this diagnosis, I likely would be unable to come up with any information. For all I know, my parents might be developing Alzheimers (I hope not though!).

RJM62 said:
The second problem is that there's a chance, albeit a small one, that the diagnosis, although improperly arrived at, was correct. A few of them are, you know. Very few, in my opinion, but some. If you indeed have ADHD, you might be endangering your own life (and others) by embarking on a flying career.
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If I'm unfit to fly, that's a determination which my FI and the FAA checkride pilot need to make. I don't see why my state of being for 30 seconds at age 6 should have anything to do with it. I'm not stupid enough to recklessly go trying to kill myself - if I think I'm endangering myself or others, you can be sure I won't be flying.
 
RJM62 said:
The second problem is that there's a chance, albeit a small one, that the diagnosis
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Let's just stop there. We have a parent's recollection, not his, 10 years after the fact, that there was a diagnosis. Me thinks this very close to heresay evidence. This individual has no other evidence of the diagnosis. Based on this limitation, he should be reluctant to state, unequivocally on a federal form, that such a diagnosis existed.

Maybe he does have some level of ADHD. He'd be following in the footsteps of thousands of good pilots, very likely including some famous ones, before him.
 
Please email me off the board, use the link below my post.

One of the critical questions is what year was the eval. EXACTLY what year. No equivocating.

NAIL the date. What grade were you in?
Don't publish it, reply offline.

unregistered said:
If I'm unfit to fly, that's a determination which my FI and the FAA checkride pilot need to make
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Now that's telling the FAA. That'll get you far...........not.

The trouble is, if you really have it, you might do quite nicely on a check ride, than at some future time it shows up at a critical moment. The agency just hates-hates-hates that. But the former question is critical and I need a hard answer to that; and a place to reply to OFF LINE.
 
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Ok Doc,

You have an email. I guess with the Patriot Act, posting anonymously through a proxy onto a forum doesn't even accomplish much anyway.
 
Unregistered said:
<snip>

As for RJM62, I appreciate your response quite a bit. It has made me go back and consider an ethical questions, both on a personal and legal level, which I skated over before. I'm going to post my justifications for the problematic bits, and I'd appreciate it if you can try to poke holes.. There's no better way to strengthen arguments, moral or otherwise, than to hear the counterarguments.

<snip>
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Nah, I don't want to poke holes, nor to argue with you. What I said was pretty much all I had to say. You seem like a smart kid. You don't need me to engage you in an ethical debate.

I'm more concerned that you don't hurt yourself, legally or otherwise -- especially the "otherwise."

In any case, you're dealing with Doc Bruce now. There's no one better to advise you about something like this, so just do what he says.

-Rich
 
Thanks for the vote of confidence Doc!

Now that I've got all my ducks in a row, I can relax a bit before the appointment. Ahh, The joys of bring young and healthy :)
 
Unregistered said:
As for RJM62, I appreciate your response quite a bit. It has made me go back and consider an ethical questions, both on a personal and legal level, which I skated over before. I'm going to post my justifications for the problematic bits, and I'd appreciate it if you can try to poke holes.. There's no better way to strengthen arguments, moral or otherwise, than to hear the counterarguments.
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You are one seriously bright kid ... not that it will help you at all with the FAA :^). That said, welcome to general aviation and I hope you have a ball with it.
 
Personally, I think if the OP is an academically gifted individual that the goal of professional pilot is nearly ludicrous. There are many challenging and rewarding careers available to those who can step up to them. Anyone capable of writing checks can become a pilot. I believe that's why we're now seeing utterly egregious accidents occurring because of simple things even us amateurs know not to do.
 
....unfortunately my profession, and most all of the Bio Sci's, I dare say, are no longer places for the best and brightest.

Tom Mantiatis, Ed Mocarski, if you can hear me, who figured it would turn out this way?
 
steingar said:
There are many challenging and rewarding careers available to those who can step up to them.
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You mean like a "financial engineer" designing and trading multi-layer derivatives? :stirpot: Or perhaps professional politician. :nono:
 
bbchien said:
Please email me off the board, use the link below my post.

One of the critical questions is what year was the eval. EXACTLY what year. No equivocating.

NAIL the date. What grade were you in?
Don't publish it, reply offline.

Now that's telling the FAA. That'll get you far...........not.

The trouble is, if you really have it, you might do quite nicely on a check ride, than at some future time it shows up at a critical moment. The agency just hates-hates-hates that. But the former question is critical and I need a hard answer to that; and a place to reply to OFF LINE.
Click to expand...

As far as "hates hates hates it" I am wondering if you have a few examples of exactly what you are talking about. I am wondering for example, if gear up landings could be related to ADD?
 
Warrior said:
As far as "hates hates hates it" I am wondering if you have a few examples of exactly what you are talking about. I am wondering for example, if gear up landings could be related to ADD?
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It is not entirely defensible. There are accidents attributed to OCD traits, no one cares about stopping those clowns. But you have to regulate somebody:rolleyes2: and it is going to be people from the opposite side of the scale as the regulators.
 
Warrior said:
As far as "hates hates hates it" I am wondering if you have a few examples of exactly what you are talking about. I am wondering for example, if gear up landings could be related to ADD?
Click to expand...

Personally, I think most gear-up landings are related to lack of discipline. ADD or no ADD, landing checklists exist for a reason.

-Rich
 
wsuffa said:
You mean like a "financial engineer" designing and trading multi-layer derivatives? :stirpot: Or perhaps professional politician. :nono:
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Funnily enough, financial engineering is my chosen career path. Unless the aviation bug takes me over and i end up in revenue management, which uses very similar kinds of math. I just want to do this because I'm allergic to anything "unproductive" and flying around without a goal I'm mind (working towards a certificate or endorsement or teaching a student) seems like a waste of the checks I'm writing.
 
steingar said:
Personally, I think if the OP is an academically gifted individual that the goal of professional pilot is nearly ludicrous. There are many challenging and rewarding careers available to those who can step up to them. Anyone capable of writing checks can become a pilot. I believe that's why we're now seeing utterly egregious accidents occurring because of simple things even us amateurs know not to do.
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You do realize, don't you, that the only way to fix the problem you identified is to get more "gifted" individuals into cokpits, not fewer?

"Here's this problem that's killing people. Whatever you do, don't be part of the solution!"
 
DaleB said:
You do realize, don't you, that the only way to fix the problem you identified is to get more "gifted" individuals into cokpits, not fewer?

"Here's this problem that's killing people. Whatever you do, don't be part of the solution!"
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And the only way to do that is to raise salaries and the market says no. Nada, not a friggin chance. Cue the dreamers.
 
ClimbnSink said:
And the only way to do that is to raise salaries and the market says no. Nada, not a friggin chance. Cue the dreamers.
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Sure. But if no one did jobs that needed doing despite low salaries, we'd have no military officer corps and entire fields would empty out. All I'm saying is, don't discourage someone from doing what they want to do just because they could probably make more money doing something else.

I'll step off my soap box now.
 
DaleB said:
Sure. But if no one did jobs that needed doing despite low salaries, we'd have no military officer corps and entire fields would empty out. All I'm saying is, don't discourage someone from doing what they want to do just because they could probably make more money doing something else.

I'll step off my soap box now.
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Military gives added benefits the airlines don't. Put another way, if upon hiring they trained you to fly airliners from scratch, there would be no lack of takers.
 
Unregistered said:
Funnily enough, financial engineering is my chosen career path. Unless the aviation bug takes me over and i end up in revenue management, which uses very similar kinds of math. I just want to do this because I'm allergic to anything "unproductive" and flying around without a goal I'm mind (working towards a certificate or endorsement or teaching a student) seems like a waste of the checks I'm writing.
Click to expand...

get a glider rating, you'll never run out of goals to achieve
 
steingar said:
Military gives added benefits the airlines don't. Put another way, if upon hiring they trained you to fly airliners from scratch, there would be no lack of takers.
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It may astonish you to learn that not all military officers are pilots. Some have no real special training that would prepare them for high paying civilian jobs, aside from the character building and junior level management. Some people even serve as enlisted NCOs when they could be earning far more in the civilian world -- benefits or no.

My point was that not everyone is motivated purely by earning potential. Many college professors, for instance, would be able to tell you that.
 
Warrior said:
As far as "hates hates hates it" I am wondering if you have a few examples of exactly what you are talking about. I am wondering for example, if gear up landings could be related to ADD?
Click to expand...
I don't/can't /shouldn't discuss actuall airmen here. That would be a violation of confidence.
 
DaleB said:
It may astonish you to learn that not all military officers are pilots. Some have no real special training that would prepare them for high paying civilian jobs, aside from the character building and junior level management. Some people even serve as enlisted NCOs when they could be earning far more in the civilian world -- benefits or no.

My point was that not everyone is motivated purely by earning potential. Many college professors, for instance, would be able to tell you that.
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Was the irony intentional? Don't know if you realize it, but steingar is a .... COLLEGE PROFESSOR! :rofl:
 
Yes, I was aware of that. It's why I found the advice so puzzling.
 
DaleB said:
It may astonish you to learn that not all military officers are pilots. Some have no real special training that would prepare them for high paying civilian jobs, aside from the character building and junior level management. Some people even serve as enlisted NCOs when they could be earning far more in the civilian world -- benefits or no.
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Military offers tremendous benefits, including retirement at a young age, lifetime medical treatment, and free on the job training not to mention free college. And if you get to go fly they teach you to do that too, and you fly ships most of us could only dream of.

For the airlines you begin at the same pay as a guy making burritos at Taco Bell, that after having blown $100 grand on flight training. Sorry, you have to be starry eyed in the extreme to go for a loosing proposition like that.
 
steingar said:
Military offers tremendous benefits, including retirement at a young age, lifetime medical treatment, and free on the job training not to mention free college. And if you get to go fly they teach you to do that too, and you fly ships most of us could only dream of.

For the airlines you begin at the same pay as a guy making burritos at Taco Bell, that after having blown $100 grand on flight training. Sorry, you have to be starry eyed in the extreme to go for a loosing proposition like that.
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Now now, perfessor, stop exaggerating.

Starting FO pay at a regional is closer to what the Quesadilla Guy at Taco Bell earns, not the Burrito Guy. So we're not talking about a rookie. We're talking about someone who's already moved up the ranks from Floor Mopper and Urinal Cleaner guy, to Taco Guy, and through Burrito Guy and Gordita guy. So we're talking... I'd say at least nine days seniority by then. Maybe more.

All my friends my age who served in the military, but didn't make a career of it, wish we had. Most of us didn't because we were "tired of the bull shot," but we quickly learned that civilian bull shot is even worse than military bull shot in many ways.

If I had it all to do over again, I'd make it a career. I'd be long retired by now, pulling pension, with free health care and full commissary privileges.

Sigh...

-Rich
 
But if you join the military first, retire, then go to the airlines, you will generally be older than other entry-level FOs. Much older. Not that this makes a difference, depending on your personality, until they furlough from the bottom. On the other hand, you still have your retirement, assuming you retire rather than separate before retirement.

So like other things, it just depends.
 
Unregistered said:
[...]

I agree that good grades don't necessarily mean that I don't have ADD - I very well might have it -but my grades illustrate that once I set a goal, I have laser- like focus to achieve it. In essence, if I have it, I've learned to manage it.
Click to expand...

Actually I do have ADD and one thing you'll find is this ability you are actually talking about called hyper-focusing. I've used it to achieve many things and I'd bet you do have it and have basically harnessed your ADD to your advantage.
 
Actually now that we are on the topic of ADD/ADHD, I never thought this could affect my ability to get a class III medical and obtain my PPL.

Can taking meds for ADD really mess that up?
 
Everskyward said:
But if you join the military first, retire, then go to the airlines, you will generally be older than other entry-level FOs. Much older. Not that this makes a difference, depending on your personality, until they furlough from the bottom. On the other hand, you still have your retirement, assuming you retire rather than separate before retirement.

So like other things, it just depends.
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One of my friends who is a new hire for ExpressJet said "I worked 18 years to be able to afford this job"

He is a retired Lt. Colonel.

There are other ways to get into professional flying than going to a regional. It just happens to be a great way to jumpstart your career if you can drink from a firehose for two months, followed by sleeping on a couch for the first year.
 
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