ADHD and the FAA; A new update

[MyDimeIsUp]

Hello everyone,

I'm back. Good news! If you've seen me before or check my post history I was diagnosed with ADHD and Aspergers (A false diagnosis; They asked me about friends and stuff but we had moved 5 times in 6 years during that time. Longest friend I had was like 4 months at the time). Anyway, I went to see the glorious Dr. Kay, the man who made the cogscreen, MMPI, verbal reasoning, and more, and he said I got great scores. No ADHD or Aspergers. I am now on to contact my AME and get my final checkup. I am wondering however which medical I should apply for.

I'm doing this to become a pilot, and my college will (hopefully) be UND. I've been tossed back and forth between my AME and Dr. Kay for what I should apply for. In his report, he said I was applying for a class 3, but my AME says a Class 2 should work since a CPL is done in the sophomore year. Currently I'm a junior in high school). What should I apply for? If I do go for a class 3, can I just submit another MedXPress and get a Class 2 whenever I want? How does it work to change your medical certificate?

Thanks!

 

[jstone]

If you plan on becoming a pilot for a living you should get a first class medical for your first one. Even though it’s not necessary at this point in time you will know you are eligible for it. You don’t want to finish your training and then find out you can’t get a first class.

 

[midlifeflyer]

No advice on what to get now.

Changing to another only requires submitting an application and passing. Any time.

 

[Palmpilot]

No advice on what to get now.

Changing to another only requires submitting an application and passing. Any time.

A much more concise and accurate answer than I attempted to write, and abandoned!

 

[MyDimeIsUp]

Ok. Right now the report says applying for a class 3. I've probably messaged Dr. Kay at least 10 times this past week. I would rather not bother him anymore as I already said I'd be scheduling an apt. with my AME today. I assume since the FAA considers me "cleared" of ADHD, I can just walk in to an AME and if I pass, I can get my new medical soon after right? I would like to get a 1st class but I'd be stuck with a 1st class for a year and not even use it (Since I won't start training until College). Thats why I was thinking to get a class 3 and once I'm entering my sophomore year, to just get a Class 1.

 

[Palmpilot]

Ok. Right now the report says applying for a class 3. I've probably messaged Dr. Kay at least 10 times this past week. I would rather not bother him anymore as I already said I'd be scheduling an apt. with my AME today. I assume since the FAA considers me "cleared" of ADHD, I can just walk in to an AME and if I pass, I can get my new medical soon after right? I would like to get a 1st class but I'd be stuck with a 1st class for a year and not even use it (Since I won't start training until College). Thats why I was thinking to get a class 3 and once I'm entering my sophomore year, to just get a Class 1.

If you study the table at the bottom of 14 CFR 61.23, you'll see that if you're under 40 at the time of examination, then a first-class medical certificate lasts for 60 months when used for operations than could be performed on a third-class certificate.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...05f098d1a&mc=true&node=se14.2.61_123&rgn=div8

 

[MyDimeIsUp]

If you study the table at the bottom of 14 CFR 61.19, you'll see that if you're under 40 at the time of examination, then a first-class medical certificate lasts for 60 months when used for operations than could be performed on a third-class certificate.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...05f098d1a&mc=true&node=se14.2.61_123&rgn=div8

Ok so if I do nothing next year, and then do PPL and CFI my freshmen to part sophomore year, I would be fine for those 2 - 3 years? And once I start getting my CPL then I would step to doing a 12 month medical renewals as per "Situation IV" in the table column?

 

[Palmpilot]

Ok so if I do nothing next year, and then do PPL and CFI my freshmen to part sophomore year, I would be fine for those 2 - 3 years? And once I start getting my CPL then I would step to doing a 12 month medical renewals as per "Situation IV" in the table column?

I'm not well versed on that level of detail, so hopefully someone who is will answer that.

 

[Larry Vrooman]

If I recall correctly, at your age the requirements for a 2nd class and a 3rd class medical are the same, so there is no reason to even consider a 3rd class medical.

Besides, while you can still fly as a commercial pilot with a second class medical in the event you can't get a first class medical, if you cannot get a 2nd class medical your employment options are extremely limited to some forms of flight instruction where you are not required to act as PIC.

This last sentence will probably spark some debate, but you can do some types of instruction with a 3rd class medical where you are functioning solely as a *teacher* and not as a *pilot*. You must have at least a second class medical to fly for compensation as a *pilot*, however, you can be compensated as an instructor if you are instructing a pilot who is still qualified and current to act as PIC, provided you are not also a required crew member.

For example, a CFI can teach under a 3rd class medical to provide a flight review, provided the pilot being instructed has not timed out since the last review and is thus still qualified to act as PIC. Similarly, a CFI could provide instruction with a 3rd class medical to a current and rated IFR pilot under actual IFR conditions (since the student is qualified to act as PIC) but could not provide dual with that same pilot under the hood in simulated IFR conditions, as the CFI is now a required safety pilot and considered an essential crew member.

And of course you can also teach ground instruction and teach in a simulator as you are again not required to be PIC.

Something else to consider in the first versus second class medical application decision is that if you apply for a first or second class medical and you are disqualified for that class for a medical condition, you do not drop down to the next level where you would qualify. You are instead rejected and have to re-apply for the lower class.

In short, the safe bet in the short term is to apply for the second class medical, while applying for a first class medical will give you early warning in the long term about your potential to work as an ATP.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Ok. Right now the report says applying for a class 3. I've probably messaged Dr. Kay at least 10 times this past week. I would rather not bother him anymore as I already said I'd be scheduling an apt. with my AME today. I assume since the FAA considers me "cleared" of ADHD, I can just walk in to an AME and if I pass, I can get my new medical soon after right? I would like to get a 1st class but I'd be stuck with a 1st class for a year and not even use it (Since I won't start training until College). Thats why I was thinking to get a class 3 and once I'm entering my sophomore year, to just get a Class 1.

If you get a 1st Class medical here's the general time sequence from the table.

• It is valid for pilot operations which requires an ATP pilot certificate for 6 calendar months (12 if under age 40 when the medical certificate was issued).
• It is valid for pilot operations which require a commercial pilot certificate for 12 calendar months (That does not include acting as a CFI).
• It is valid for pilot operations which require a private pilot certificate for 24 calendar months (60 if under age 40 when the medical certificate was issued) (This covers everything you might do as a CFI)

 

[midlifeflyer]

A much more concise and accurate answer than I attempted to write, and abandoned!

Occupational necessity.

 

[Brad Z]

If I recall correctly, at your age the requirements for a 2nd class and a 3rd class medical are the same, so there is no reason to even consider a 3rd class medical.

Besides, while you can still fly as a commercial pilot with a second class medical in the event you can't get a first class medical, if you cannot get a 2nd class medical your employment options are extremely limited to some forms of flight instruction where you are not required to act as PIC.

This last sentence will probably spark some debate, but you can do some types of instruction with a 3rd class medical where you are functioning solely as a *teacher* and not as a *pilot*. You must have at least a second class medical to fly for compensation as a *pilot*, however, you can be compensated as an instructor if you are instructing a pilot who is still qualified and current to act as PIC, provided you are not also a required crew member.

For example, a CFI can teach under a 3rd class medical to provide a flight review, provided the pilot being instructed has not timed out since the last review and is thus still qualified to act as PIC. Similarly, a CFI could provide instruction with a 3rd class medical to a current and rated IFR pilot under actual IFR conditions (since the student is qualified to act as PIC) but could not provide dual with that same pilot under the hood in simulated IFR conditions, as the CFI is now a required safety pilot and considered an essential crew member.

And of course you can also teach ground instruction and teach in a simulator as you are again not required to be PIC.

Something else to consider in the first versus second class medical application decision is that if you apply for a first or second class medical and you are disqualified for that class for a medical condition, you do not drop down to the next level where you would qualify. You are instead rejected and have to re-apply for the lower class.

In short, the safe bet in the short term is to apply for the second class medical, while applying for a first class medical will give you early warning in the long term about your potential to work as an ATP.

Actually, an instructor can act as PIC with only a third class medical. In the eyes of the FAA, for medical eligibility, a flight instructor is being paid to teach, not to fly passengers or property for compensation or hire.

A flight instructor with no medical (and no BasicMed eligibility) is limited to providing instruction in which the instructor is not a required pilot flight crewmemeber (ie not PIC, SIC, or safety pilot).

 

[Larry Vrooman]

Ok so if I do nothing next year, and then do PPL and CFI my freshmen to part sophomore year, I would be fine for those 2 - 3 years? And once I start getting my CPL then I would step to doing a 12 month medical renewals as per "Situation IV" in the table column?

It's still fairly simple if you are age 35 or younger and will have a full 60 months before you turn 40.

It's been the case for decades that a first class medical downgrades to a second class medical and then a third class medical as the higher grades time out. In the distant past it was 3 years for a third class, 1 year for a second class and six months for a first class medical for everyone.

Now however, it's been parsed based on age 40 and over or under age 40 and it takes a table to follow the various calendar times and privileges.

If you are under age 40, a second class medical is good for SIC privileges as an ATP for 12 months after the month of issue, and for all commercial pilot purposes for 12 months after the month of issue. It's then good for 60 months after the month of issue for a flight instructor certificate - when acting as pilot in command or a required pilot flight crewmember in operations other than glider or balloon as well as for private pilot privileges (contrary to my mis statement above, where a non PIC CFI would in fact not need a medical at all).

If you are 40 or over, then a second class medical is valid for the same 12 months, but then is only valid for 24 months after the month of issue for PIC related instructor duties, or private pilot duties.

 

[Larry Vrooman]

Actually, an instructor can act as PIC with only a third class medical. In the eyes of the FAA, for medical eligibility, a flight instructor is being paid to teach, not to fly passengers or property for compensation or hire.

A flight instructor with no medical (and no BasicMed eligibility) is limited to providing instruction in which the instructor is not a required pilot flight crewmember (ie not PIC, SIC, or safety pilot).

Hmm...reading the duties on the FAA's medical chart, you are correct.

However, the wording on the chart also then suggests that a CFI could operate with no medical at all as long as the CFI was not the PIC, as I described above which means I misremembered the situation slightly.

Thanks for catching that.

 

[Brad Z]

Hmm...reading the duties on the FAA's medical chart, you are correct.

However, the wording on the chart also then suggests that a CFI could operate with no medical at all as long as the CFI was not the PIC, as I described above which means I misremembered the situation slightly.

Thanks for catching that.

In your defense, it's not completely intuitive, and it's compounded by the fact that the first paid flying job for most civilian pilots is flight instructing, and most flight schools require their instructor to hold at least a second class medical, since instructors often are called to give sightseeing flights, ferry flights, and other for-hire flying tasks.

 

[MyDimeIsUp]

Ok thanks everyone! I filled out the MedXPress and selected a Class 1 medical. Going on the 22nd next week. Then it's just a matter of time for the FAA to approve my medical and the report from Dr. Kay (I doubt they'd deny a report from Dr. Kay, but never got your hopes up too soon)

 

[bbchien]

Dr Kay's a great guy, but.....your are wayyy tooo confident. Cogscreen merely tells us your brain works. Nothing about interpersonal interactions.....that's the psychiatry component. Psychology and Psychiatry though adjacent, are not the same thing .

In this situation, the agency always requires a HIMS psychiatry evaluation....on top of the neuropsychology screening.

 

[MyDimeIsUp]

Dr Kay's a great guy, but.....your are wayyy tooo confident. Cogscreen merely tells us your brain works. Nothing about interpersonal interactions.....that's the psychiatry component. Psychology and Psychiatry though adjacent, are not the same thing .

In this situation, the agency always requires a HIMS psychiatry evaluation....on top of the neuropsychology screening.

Ok at this point should I just go ahead and let it get possibly deferred? Also, I should clarify it wasn't just the Cogscreen. I had an interview done, verbal reasoning, and the MMPI with him too, all included in his report. Would that still possibly not be enough?

Thanks

 

[bbchien]

FAA will demand a credentialed opinion that this was a false diagnosis and will not accept your "assertion" in that regard. Dr. Kay's report (he's not a psychiatrist) only confirm that your cognition is working well.

 

[MyDimeIsUp]

FAA will demand a credentialed opinion that this was a false diagnosis and will not accept your "assertion" in that regard. Dr. Kay's report (he's not a psychiatrist) only confirm that your cognition is working well.

Ok, the current AME I'm with is a HIMS AME Psychiatrist. This Wednesday I am scheduled for an appointment. I'll keep updated here after that day.

 

[bbchien]

So there are only 2 in the USA. Puts you either in the California Central valley or in Northeast FL. Both are good guys.
Just NB FAA wants the HIMS AME function separate from the HIMS psychiatrist, as it's "maximum # of eyes on the applicant".

 

[MyDimeIsUp]

So there are only 2 in the USA. Puts you either in the California Central valley or in Northeast FL. Both are good guys.
Just NB FAA wants the HIMS AME function separate from the HIMS psychiatrist, as it's "maximum # of eyes on the applicant".

Ok so cross my fingers and hope they'll take what my AME writes out as far as psychiatric will go? If I still get deferred, then stick with my AME (even though he is HIMS Psychiatrist) and find an outside HIMS psychiatrist to do their evaulation?

Also what does "nb" stand for?

Pete

 

[bbchien]

Ok so cross my fingers and hope they'll take what my AME writes out as far as psychiatric will go? If I still get deferred, then stick with my AME (even though he is HIMS Psychiatrist) and find an outside HIMS psychiatrist to do their evaulation?

Also what does "nb" stand for?

Pete

Both dual role guys always choose one role of the other.
N.B. = Notarum Bene”, it “take note”.

 

[AggieMike88]

Ok so cross my fingers and hope they'll take what my AME writes out as far as psychiatric will go? If I still get deferred, then stick with my AME (even though he is HIMS Psychiatrist) and find an outside HIMS psychiatrist to do their evaulation?

Instead of making this first encounter with this AME a "live exam" where the only options are deny, defer, or issue, you might consider switching it to a consultation. The focus here being an opportunity to ask all your questions, and learn how the steps to success are arranged.

By having it as a consultation, you are not jeopardizing your chances of success by going in ill prepared. And you may come out much better educated about what is needed to succeed, and how to improve the rate of success.

 

[AggieMike88]

Both dual role guys always choose one role of the other.
N.B. = Notarum Bene”, it “take note”.

Which sounds even more cool when you say it like this guy....

 

[MyDimeIsUp]

Instead of making this first encounter with this AME a "live exam" where the only options are deny, defer, or issue, you might consider switching it to a consultation. The focus here being an opportunity to ask all your questions, and learn how the steps to success are arranged.

By having it as a consultation, you are not jeopardizing your chances of success by going in ill prepared. And you may come out much better educated about what is needed to succeed, and how to improve the rate of success.

That is what the initial consultation was in October. According to my AME, we are on the final step as I submitted the MedXPress, though I will hold off on giving him the confirmation code just-in-case.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Changing to another only requires submitting an application and passing. Any time.

Not entirely true... And I had never heard of this, but I found out the hard way.

If you attempt to get a medical within 90 days of your previous medical, the doctor cannot issue in office and it becomes a "thing". I was only able to get it solved by going in person to the FAA building at Oshkosh and talking with the Aeromedical folks there - Otherwise they're so swamped that you can't even get them on the phone. The queue fills up and the system says the line is too long and hangs up on you, better luck next time. I called several times a day for a month and only got to even wait in line once... And then the call dropped before I got a human.

So - If you have ANY reason why you might need another medical in the next 3 months, get the higher grade right away.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Not entirely true... And I had never heard of this, but I found out the hard way.

If you attempt to get a medical within 90 days of your previous medical, the doctor cannot issue in office and it becomes a "thing". I was only able to get it solved by going in person to the FAA building at Oshkosh and talking with the Aeromedical folks there - Otherwise they're so swamped that you can't even get them on the phone. The queue fills up and the system says the line is too long and hangs up on you, better luck next time. I called several times a day for a month and only got to even wait in line once... And then the call dropped before I got a human.

So - If you have ANY reason why you might need another medical in the next 3 months, get the higher grade right away.

That's really interesting and good to know.

 

[MyDimeIsUp]

Update 6/25/2020: I've been calling Oklahoma City every other day (Thursday -> Thursday, Monday -> Wednesday -> Friday) I called Oklahoma City and was talking to a lady and provided her with my PI #. She said a "confirmation letter" was sent out yesterday, 6/24/2020. She said she can't confirm the contents of the letter (Whether I received my medical or not) but she mentioned something about having to sign this letter. Once I do that I can call Oklahoma City back if I have any questions. I'm hoping for the best. Also anyone who has had to go through Special Issuance/deferred medicals, is there any reason why you have to sign this letter before talking on the phone with Oklahoma City? How do they confirm you signed this letter. Do you have to fax it to Oklahoma City before calling back?

Thanks all, and fingers crossed.

 

[smv]

Update 6/25/2020: I've been calling Oklahoma City every other day (Thursday -> Thursday, Monday -> Wednesday -> Friday) I called Oklahoma City and was talking to a lady and provided her with my PI #. She said a confirmation letter was sent out yesterday, 6/24/2020. She said she can't confirm the contents of the letter (Whether I received my medical or not) but she mentioned something about having to sign this letter. Once I do that I can call Oklahoma City back if I have any questions. I'm hoping for the best. Also anyone who has had to go through Special Issuance/deferred medicals, is there any reason why you have to sign this letter before talking on the phone with Oklahoma City? How do they confirm you signed this letter. Do you have to fax it to Oklahoma City before calling back?

Thanks all, and fingers crossed.

Have you checked the Airmen Registry to see what it says about your medical status?

 

[MyDimeIsUp]

Have you checked the Airmen Registry to see what it says about your medical status?

I did but didn't see my name. Maybe I will have to take this letter to my HIMS AME then?

 

[smv]

I did but didn't see my name. Maybe I will have to take this letter to my HIMS AME then?

It occurs to me you may not yet have a Student Pilot Certificate. If that is the case, then you are not yet an "Airman" and will not appear in the database.

 

[MyDimeIsUp]

It occurs to me you may not yet have a Student Pilot Certificate. If that is the case, then you are not yet an "Airman" and will not appear in the database.

That is correct. I haven't even touched a yoke yet.

 

[smv]

That is correct. I haven't even touched a yoke yet.

Surprisingly enough, one can get a Student Pilot Certificate without ever having even seen an aircraft, let alone been inside one. All it takes is an IACRA application and a CFI willing to verify your identity and ability to converse in English.

Edit to add: In fact, there used to be a time not so long ago that the AME issued your Student Pilot Certificate. It was on the reverse side of your Medical Certificate.

 

[AggieMike88]

Edit to add: In fact, there used to be a time not so long ago that the AME issued your Student Pilot Certificate. It was on the reverse side of your Medical Certificate.

Yup! Still have mine as a keepsake

 

[smv]

Yup! Still have mine as a keepsake

I think mine might be somewhere with my first logbook. Gonna have to dig that up some day.

 

[bbchien]

Certified letter = not an issuance.
Not reading it to the airman= because it’s certified


= either a demand letter or a denial

 

[MyDimeIsUp]

Certified letter = not an issuance.
Not reading it to the airman= because it’s certified


= either a demand letter or a denial

What would the demand letter... demand? I provided all my Medical History and the neurocog from Dr. Kay and passed with flying colors and rainbows. A psychiatric evaluation for my bull**** Aspergers diagnosis?

 

[RussS]

What would the demand letter... demand? I provided all my Medical History and the neurocog from Dr. Kay and passed with flying colors and rainbows. A psychiatric evaluation for my bull**** Aspergers diagnosis?

if you haven’t gotten the HIMS psych evaluation, then yes. Also I’m pretty sure that whenever you think you have sent everything, the FAA will find something else to ask for.

 

[MyDimeIsUp]

My AME said they recently had someone receive their medical via certified mail. Maybe coronavirus has changed things a little. Fingers crossed.