Act as PIC vs log PIC - SFAR 73

[poadeleted20]

In an article on www.faa.gov

That link leads to the front page of the FAA web site, which I could search for a hundred years and not find the article without more information. How about a link to the article itself?

How might a person get a copy of the Chief Counsel opinion that says you can go flying with your buddy who isn't a CFI and log the PIC time as sole manipulator when not 90 day current to act as PIC.

By contacting the Regional Counsel for your region -- your FSDO can point you in the right direction.

 

[poadeleted20]

Greg, with all due respect, that's where I disagree

We understand that part.

what I'm talking about is when the PF is NOT current in accordance with 61.57. I'm aware of two situations where both pilots can log PIC. First when one is a CFI giving instruction to the other who is rated category and class.

That's correct -- 14 CFR 61.51(e), subparagraphs (1)(i) and (3).

Second is when one is legal PIC acting as safety pilot for the PF under the hood.

Again, correct -- subparagraphs (1)(i) and (1)(iii).

I'm not aware of any legal basis for two pilots flying together in a plane or operation not requiring more than one crew member to both log PIC.

I am, and you gave it above -- the instructor giving instruction to a pilot rated in the aircraft. Both can log PIC time even though the plane and operation only require one pilot.

When two pilots are out together outside the above operations then I believe only one at a time can log PIC.

That is generally true.

So if a pilot who is current hands over the controls to a pilot who is not .. then the one who's current can no longer log PIC

Correct.

or be legal PIC

That is not correct, and I think that's the source of your misunderstanding. Since the current pilot is the only pilot qualified to be PIC, he cannot turn over the PIC status to the noncurrent pilot. The current pilot remains the PIC, but cannot log PIC time because he does not meet any of the requirements to do so under 14 CFR 61.51(e). The noncurrent pilot is still legally a passenger in terms of responsibility for the flight, but can log PIC time as sole manipulator of an aircraft for which he is rated under 14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(i) even though he is not the actual PIC.

As stated before, logging PIC time and being the PIC are separate issues governed by separate regulations.

 

[SkyHog]

Ron, while I know you are right, you bring up a question that I don't know where to find the source for the answer (its in the FARs, but I don't know where).

Say I am flying with some dude that is not actually a pilot. I give him the controls. Obviously, I am not instructing (not a CFI), and I am still the acting PIC, but can he log PIC time? I know the answer is no, but where is that said.....and also, can I still log PIC time for the time when I'm not flying, but the non-pilot is?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Say I am flying with some dude that is not actually a pilot. I give him the controls. Obviously, I am not instructing (not a CFI), and I am still the acting PIC, but can he log PIC time? I know the answer is no, but where is that said.....

Your non-pilot friend is more than welcome to log the time as PIC. He has no pilot certificate, no recordkeeping requirements, and nothing to count it toward. It's irrelevant. Who cares if he wants to log his flight in seat 23B on a 747?

But if you're looking for a reference, I guess the best one is (as usual) 61.51 (e)(1):

==============================
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person--
(I) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
==============================

No pilot certificate, no ratings, no privileges, no authorized logging of PIC time.

and also, can I still log PIC time for the time when I'm not flying, but the non-pilot is?

If you read the words of 61.51(e), no. 61.51(e) sets out a bunch of "boxes" for logging PIC time. Fit into a box, you log PIC; don't fit into a box, don't log PIC. It really is that simple.

That said, I guess it's time to dust off an unverified FAA Legal opinion I received from someone who used to work for the FAA. I say unverified because I have not been able to locate it in the usual collections - even the one that is used by aviation lawyers. It suggests that when a pilot is the only aircraft-rated pilot on board, she may log PIC even when she does not fit into a 61.51(e) box.

==============================
June 22, 1977

Mr. Thomas Beane

Dear Mr. Beane:

This letter is in response to your recent letters to the FAA Flight Standards Service and to the Chief Counsel inquiring about the logging of pilot-in-command (PIC) time by an airman whenever he is not the sole manipulator of the controls.


Section 1.1 of the Federal Aviation Regulations defines Pilot in Command as:

Pilot in command means the person who:

(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight; (2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and (3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

Section 61.51(c)(2) of the Federal Aviation Regulations provides, in pertinent part:

(2) Pilot-in-Command flight time.

(I) A private or commercial pilot may log as pilot in command time only that flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated, or when he is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or when he acts as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

A pilot may log PIC time in accordance with Section 61.51(c)(2)(I) when he is not actually "flying the airplane", if the airplane is one on which more than one pilot is required under its type certificate or under the regulations under which the flight is conducted and he is acting as PIC. Also, a pilot, rated in category and class (e.g. airplane single-engine) could, as the pilot who "Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight" log PIC time if another pilot, not appropriately rated, was actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft.

It should be noted that more than one pilot may log PIC time for the same flight time. For example, one pilot receiving instruction may log PIC time in accordance with paragraph (c)(2)(I) for the time he is designated PIC, and another pilot may log PIC time in accordance with (c)(2)(iii) for the same time during which he is actually giving flight instruction.

We hope that we have satisfactorily responded to your inquiry on the proper logging of PIC time.

Sincerely,

ORIGINAL SIGNED BY EDWARD P. FABERMAN

for NEIL R. EISNER Acting Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations & Enforcement Division Office of the Chief Counsel -
==============================

 

[TMetzinger]

Where this gets "sticky" is when you use an autopilot or allow a non-pilot to manipulate the controls (and you're not a CFI).

I believe that logging PIC time with an autopilot is fine, as that's the control you manipulated.

Logging PIC when your non-pilot child/buddy/spouse is "flying" is commonly done, but I think it's less "correct".

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I believe that logging PIC time with an autopilot is fine, as that's the control you manipulated.

True. It is a "control".

Logging PIC when your non-pilot child/buddy/spouse is "flying" is commonly done, but I think it's less "correct".

That is true, too. But I think someone around here has an unpublished letter that says it is ok if you are the only one onboard that has a license and can be the legal PIC.

 

[RogerT]

That link leads to the front page of the FAA web site, which I could search for a hundred years and not find the article without more information. How about a link to the article itself?

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...ogram/media/LOGGING PILOT-IN-COMMAND TIME.pdf

 

[poadeleted20]

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/scott/avsafety_program/media/LOGGING%20PILOT-IN-COMMAND%20TIME.pdf

That article is 100% consistent with everything I've said -- there is nothing there that says a pilot can't log "sole manipulator" time just because he isn't current. Of course, the non-instructor current pilot acting as PIC can't log the time at all (unless the manipulating pilot is under the hood), but that's still consistent with what I've said.

The only inconsistency is the famous (or infamous, depending on one's point of view) Beane letter quoted by Mark, which goes directly opposite the plain reading of the rule regarding logging of time by the PIC when the person manipulating the controls is not rated. However, IAW Administrator v. NTSB and Merrell, that interpretation has force of law unless the NTSB or the US Court of Appeals finds it is "arbitrary, capricious, or otherwise not according to law."

 

[EdFred]

If I am flying and I let someone who has no certificate fly the plane, I still am going to log it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

That is true, too. But I think someone around here has an unpublished letter that says it is ok if you are the only one onboard that has a license and can be the legal PIC.

Not quite, Greg.

The opinion does not say you can log is you're the only one that can be legal PIC. It's limited to the only one on board with the required aircraft category and class ratings. That's quite a bit different.

If you accept the validity of the opinion, it would mean that, say, a MEL-rated pilot who is acting as PIC in a multi but letting a SEL pilot handle the controls could log PIC (the SEL pilot could not since she's not rated).

But I don't think the wording of the opinion would, for example, justify an instrument rated pilot logging PIC in actual when another pilot, rated for the aircraft, but not instrument rated is hands on (the non-instrument pilot =would= be able to log PIC).

The opinion really only avoids the situation where, if you stick with the 61.51(e) boxes, the result is a flight on which no one could log PIC time.

 

[poadeleted20]

That said, I guess it's time to dust off an unverified FAA Legal opinion I received from someone who used to work for the FAA. I say unverified because I have not been able to locate it in the usual collections - even the one that is used by aviation lawyers. It suggests that when a pilot is the only aircraft-rated pilot on board, she may log PIC even when she does not fit into a 61.51(e) box.

I've asked the Eastern Regional Counsel to see if she can verify the authenticity of this letter -- I'm tired of seeing it without knowing if it's real, especially given its failure to appear in the "usual places" when you looked for it.

 

[poadeleted20]

If I am flying and I let someone who has no certificate fly the plane, I still am going to log it.

And if the Beane letter (above) is authentic, you'd be legal to do so.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Not quite, Greg.

The opinion does not say you can log is you're the only one that can be legal PIC. It's limited to the only one on board with the required aircraft category and class ratings. That's quite a bit different.

Well, that is what I meant to say only I didn't know how. LOL. I knew if I threw it out there, someone would clarify it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I've asked the Eastern Regional Counsel to see if she can verify the authenticity of this letter -- I'm tired of seeing it without knowing if it's real, especially given its failure to appear in the "usual places" when you looked for it.

I've corresponded with Ed Faberman about it. As I expected, with all the letters he signed when he was with the Chief Counsel's office 30 years ago, he doesn't really recall this one (which is probably the singularly =least= important of any of them - unless someone can find one that says it's okay to let your mother pay for the plane when you fly your sister to her best friend's wedding without a Part 135 operating certificate)

 

[midlifeflyer]

And if the Beane letter (above) is authentic, you'd be legal to do so.

Frankly, I wouldn't worry about it regardless of the authenticity of the Beane letter. I can just see the headlines:

Pilot Certificate Revoked.
​

The FAA today brought an emergency certificate revocation action against a local pilot, alleging that he logged 40 hours as pilot in command of flights during which he let his 4 year old daughter fly the airplane.

According to FAA spokesperson, Ana L Retentive, FAA rules prohibit pilots from counting time during which anyone other than they had their hands on the controls of the airplane, whether or not the person had a pilots license or any experience, ability or understanding whatsoever.

"This prosecution is the first in an important FAA sting operation," Retentive explained.

 

[Everskyward]

I believe that logging PIC time with an autopilot is fine, as that's the control you manipulated.

Logging PIC when your non-pilot child/buddy/spouse is "flying" is commonly done, but I think it's less "correct".

Just think of your child/buddy/spouse as your voice-activated autopilot that you are manipulating.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Just think of your child/buddy/spouse as your voice-activated autopilot that you are manipulating.

Nope. They don't listen (especially spouses) and don't take too kindly to being manipulated.

 

[Everskyward]

Nope. They don't listen (especially spouses) and don't take too kindly to being manipulated.

 

[RogerT]

Frankly, I wouldn't worry about it regardless of the authenticity of the Beane letter. I can just see the headlines:

Pilot Certificate Revoked.
​

The FAA today brought an emergency certificate revocation action against a local pilot, alleging that he logged 40 hours as pilot in command of flights during which he let his 4 year old daughter fly the airplane.

Well .. he should have told her not to talk to the feds.

;-)

 

[RogerT]

That article is 100% consistent with everything I've said -- there is nothing there that says a pilot can't log "sole manipulator" time just because he isn't current.

Well .. yes and no. But we'll just have to differ in our interpretation, and since mine is more conservative .. I won't get in trouble. Let me explain why this thread caught my attention ..well other than I'm RH rated and like helicopter threads.

I have been building an experimental. I hadn't flown for a year since I
was spending my money on the plane and didn't really care about paying
for a rental just to ride around. So I wasn't 90 day current. The plane is
a pusher with a high thrust line and will fly a little different than a tractor
configuration. So before I fly it I want to get some time with a friend who
has one like it. The friend is a long time UL instructor with lots of hours
in the type of plane. He's a PPL too. But he's not a CFI.

My long time understanding based on my own reading of the regs and what
I was taught was that if you weren't current there were only two ways
to log the landings to get current. Solo .. or with a CFI. But wanting to
log the landings with the friend I double checked with two CFI's (I used to
be one but that was 25+ yrs ago) and I talked to a local FAA Ops inspector
who's very highly qualified as a pilot. The unanimous opinion I got was
the same as mine. I could not log the landings and neither could he log
the time if I was flying.

Further, my FAA friend strongly suggested I not do what I was proposing
because I'd have a non current Commercial pilot in the front seat and a
non CFI PP in the back. If something happened they'd hang my butt. Now
I'm not always that smart .. but when I ask the advice of someone I know
is infinitely smarter than me on something, then I take that advice.

So from a personal perspective the whole thing is moot, since I went out
last week with a CFI in a Cherokee and did a bunch of TO's and Ldgs and
got back up to speed and current. So I can go fly with my friend in
his experimental and log the time and landings and all is cool.

Now my take away from this thread is that there is strong opinion from
very knowledgeable people that one could go fly with a friend who's not a CFI, log the time and landings, and get current. However, being a skeptic
I will most likely continue to do it like I always have .. solo or with a CFI.

Thanks.

RT

 

[poadeleted20]

My long time understanding based on my own reading of the regs and what I was taught was that if you weren't current there were only two ways to log the landings to get current. Solo .. or with a CFI. But wanting to log the landings with the friend I double checked with two CFI's (I used to be one but that was 25+ yrs ago) and I talked to a local FAA Ops inspector who's very highly qualified as a pilot. The unanimous opinion I got was the same as mine. I could not log the landings and neither could he log the time if I was flying.

I really hate it when individual Inspectors make up their own answers instead of following their own internal FAA directives. In any event, all three are wrong. With the assumption that this is an airplane (not a UL), it has a full set of controls in the second seat, and it is covered by the ratings on your certificate, you can indeed log the landings for currency, as well as logging the time in the PIC column.

Further, my FAA friend strongly suggested I not do what I was proposing because I'd have a non current Commercial pilot in the front seat and a non CFI PP in the back. If something happened they'd hang my butt. Now I'm not always that smart .. but when I ask the advice of someone I know is infinitely smarter than me on something, then I take that advice.

That's not bad advice from a safety standpoint, because flying an unfamiliar (and apparantly unusual) airplane with someone other than an instructor in the other seat (even if you were current) is not a real good idea. However, unless there's a reason the PIC can't occupy the back seat (e.g., no controls back there or something like that), it is legal, and unless you and your friend started pointing the finger at each other, the FAA would pretty much have to accept your mutual agreement on who was PIC.

Now my take away from this thread is that there is strong opinion from very knowledgeable people that one could go fly with a friend who's not a CFI, log the time and landings, and get current. However, being a skeptic I will most likely continue to do it like I always have .. solo or with a CFI.

There's nothing wrong with doing it your way from either a legal or safety perspective, and there are definite safety issue when you fly when neither proficient nor current with a non-instructor in the other seat acting as PIC, but the latter act is legal -- just another example of the "legal but not smart/safe" category.

Thanks.

RT

 

[rcaligan]

Q for CFIs who give initial CFI training:

If you do all the hands-on flying from the left seat and your student "instructs" from the right, do you let him log PIC time?

 

[poadeleted20]

The book answer is no. The reality is I never do all the hands-on flying.

 

[robby pilot]

this question just came up for us today, and after reading this thread (or most of it) I decided to look at the FAA page and found a reference to the "herman interpretation" has anyone looked this over?
any thoughts?

 

[poadeleted20]

this question just came up for us today, and after reading this thread (or most of it) I decided to look at the FAA page and found a reference to the "herman interpretation" has anyone looked this over?
any thoughts?

Here's that interpretation:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../interpretations/data/interps/2009/Herman.pdf

That clearly states that "rated" has only to do with ratings on your pilot certificate, not logbook endorsements.

The term "rated," as used in section 61.51 (e), refers to the pilot holding the appropriate aircraft ratings (category, class, and type, if a type rating is required), and these ratings are listed in 14 C.F.R. § 61.5 and are placed on the pilot certificate.

As such, it would apply to the helos affected by SFAR 73, which requires endorsements, not ratings, to act at PIC of those helos, and says nothing about logging. Therefore, per that interpretation, the sole manipulator of the controls of those helos who holds a Rotorcraft-Helicopter rating on his/her pilot certificate could log PIC time while receiving training for the SFAR 73 endorsement.

 

[weilke]

Sooo, is the situation the same for SFAR 108 (the Mu2 training rule) ?

Serious question btw.

 

[poadeleted20]

Sooo, is the situation the same for SFAR 108 (the Mu2 training rule) ?

Serious question btw.

Yes. If it doesn't go on your pilot certificate, it doesn't affect logging PIC time.

 

[poadeleted20]

Nothing like rehashing a 7 year old thread.

New poster, first post. I'm happy to help.

 

[Palmpilot]

Here's that interpretation:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../interpretations/data/interps/2009/Herman.pdf

That clearly states that "rated" has only to do with ratings on your pilot certificate, not logbook endorsements...

And here's the proof, from 14 CFR 1.1:

"Rating means a statement that, as a part of a certificate, sets forth special conditions, privileges, or limitations." [emphasis added]

And, as the section you quoted from the Herman letter states, aircraft ratings are listed in 14 CFR 61.5.

 

[EdFred]

This thread is the one that drove me to create the flowchart.

 

[SkyHog]

Its amazing, looking back at this thread, how complex people tried to make logging PIC time.

 

[SkyHog]

After a long conversation with Ed to discuss a very specific point, I think I may have found a loophole in the ability to LOG PIC. He points out that the spirit of the regulation would prohibit it, but I do not see the letter of the regulation that would...

Scenario: Left seat current Private Pilot with glider towing endorsement, flying an airplane, towing a glider behind it, at night, on a cross country, with foggles on; right seat current Private Pilot, NO GLIDER TOWING ENDORSEMENT, acting as safety pilot.

Left seat logs: PIC, XC, Glider Tow, Night
Right seat logs: PIC, XC

Now, because the right seater lacks the glider towing endorsement, this should not be allowed, right?

 

[EdFred]

 

[Greg Bockelman]

ROTFLMAO.

 

[SkyHog]

Is that the official FAA interpretation?

 

[Palmpilot]

After a long conversation with Ed to discuss a very specific point, I think I may have found a loophole in the ability to LOG PIC. He points out that the spirit of the regulation would prohibit it, but I do not see the letter of the regulation that would...

Scenario: Left seat current Private Pilot with glider towing endorsement, flying an airplane, towing a glider behind it, at night, on a cross country, with foggles on; right seat current Private Pilot, NO GLIDER TOWING ENDORSEMENT, acting as safety pilot.

Left seat logs: PIC, XC, Glider Tow, Night
Right seat logs: PIC, XC

Now, because the right seater lacks the glider towing endorsement, this should not be allowed, right?

Well I guess it's a fun thought experiment, if nothing else!

I wouldn't call it a loophole though. It's well known that you can't act as pilot in command unless you meet the requirements for doing so.

 

[SkyHog]

Well I guess it's a fun thought experiment, if nothing else!

I wouldn't call it a loophole though. It's well known that you can't act as pilot in command unless you meet the requirements for doing so.

FAR Reference please - specifically one that covers the need for a tow-endorsement while acting as PIC.

 

[EdFred]

FAR Reference please - specifically one that covers the need for a tow-endorsement while acting as PIC.

61.69(a)(3)

"And if you aren't down with that I got two words for ya..."
[hold mic in the air]

 

[Palmpilot]

FAR Reference please - specifically one that covers the need for a tow-endorsement while acting as PIC.

I didn't realize that you were actually challenging that point, but I see that Ed has provided the reference.

 

[weilke]

Scenario: Left seat current Private Pilot with glider towing endorsement, flying an airplane, towing a glider behind it, at night, on a cross country, with foggles on; right seat current Private Pilot, NO GLIDER TOWING ENDORSEMENT, acting as safety pilot.

Left seat logs: PIC, XC, Glider Tow, Night
Right seat logs: PIC, XC