Accurate performance numbers? Or just marketing?

bflynn

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Brian Flynn
I ran across this while looking for a database of performance numbers. I like the table format, but do the numbers look right to you? I think these are the marketing numbers that the airplane manufacturers put out.

https://aircraftbluebook.com/Tools/ABB/ShowSpecifications.do

For your airplane, how off is the "recommended" cruising speed? (3rd number in the column).

PA-28-161 Warrior II recommends cruising at 110, but 100 is a realistic number.
 
A warrior will cruise at 110 all day without even flogging it.

If someone is only getting 100 at 65%, something is wrong.
 
For my plane the cruise numbers are 10% higher than what I cruise, and my plane hits POH/AFM numbers to the dot.
 
I ran across this while looking for a database of performance numbers. I like the table format, but do the numbers look right to you? I think these are the marketing numbers that the airplane manufacturers put out.

https://aircraftbluebook.com/Tools/ABB/ShowSpecifications.do

For your airplane, how off is the "recommended" cruising speed? (3rd number in the column).

PA-28-161 Warrior II recommends cruising at 110, but 100 is a realistic number.

110 KTAS for a Warrior at 7000 ft with the wheel fairings installed at mid weight/ CG is correct.
 
For my Liberty it’s over by about 5 kts.
 
Marketing numbers on the turbo Datkota. Yup it will do 150 knots. Ya gotta be about 17k feet MSL....
 
almost all published numbers I've ever seen have been high for every plane I've flown. some a little, some up to a good 10kts or so.
 
Mine is a little conservative (i.e. my plane beats the book by a little bit - about 8 KTS in this case)
IMG_0517.jpg IMG_2991.jpg
 
I ran across this while looking for a database of performance numbers. I like the table format, but do the numbers look right to you? I think these are the marketing numbers that the airplane manufacturers put out.

PA-28-161 Warrior II recommends cruising at 110, but 100 is a realistic number.
Obviously "cruise speed" is a moving target with too many variables to mention in a chart like this. Commonly, when quoting "cruising speed" of normally-aspirated piston lightplanes, the manufacturers pick the true airspeed, at max gross weight, obtained at the highest density altitude at which 75% of rated hp can be produced. That's usually in the 7500'-8000' range. (There are exceptions, for example cruise speed of the Cessna R172K "Hawk XP" is quoted at 80% of rated power, because the engine was de-rated from 210 to 195 hp.)

But how were the tests run? Did they use a production airplane with all the antennas, lights, assist steps and other drag-producing goodies a customer would normally order, or was it a stripped-down, unpainted factory "mule" used only for the certification testing? Certainly the tests were flown by expert test pilots, the engines were new, doors and seams were tight, everything properly rigged, and exterior surfaces free of damage, hail dings and wrinkles. Forty years on, or more, it might be tough to find an airplane that completely meets that description. You might even have a 5-7 knot variation between consecutive airplanes off the assembly line when they were new.

Some manufacturers had a reputation for being more realistic in their spec sheet performance numbers; others not so much. In the '60s, Piper tended to be straight-arrow about their performance claims. It paid off with good publicity when Piper airplanes frequently won the Powder Puff Derby and other handicap races that were popular in those days, because it was not difficult to beat the book numbers.

To your question about the Warrior: 118 KTAS, as shown in your chart, looks about right to me for a PA-28-161, with the 1978 or later full factory wheel fairings. What's odd, though, is that 118 KTAS is quite a bit less than what Piper itself was claiming in its advertising. Here's a screenshot from the 1982 Warrior brochure:

Let's Fly.jpeg

I flew a lot of 1980-1990 Warriors when they were nearly new, but never one that would do 127 KTAS at 75% in level flight. For 1977, the only year the PA-28-161 had the old-style wheel fairings, Piper quoted 116 KTAS, then 127 KTAS for 1978, the only difference being the new fairings.

I have a C-172N, but it has been heavily modified, so it's not an apples-to-apples comparison with the chart. But the chart lists 122 KTAS cruise for the 172N, which in my experience with the unmodified airplane, would be about 5 knots on the high side, at least. And that would not be unusual with Cessna.
 
My plane is about 5 knots faster than book at any given power setting with better fuel than the book when leaned and flown per the book.

So mine actually exceeds book values
 
They've been pretty accurate for the planes I've flown, within a couple of knots.

It's a pretty common mistake for pilots to forget that naturally aspirated engines lose power as you fly higher, and at about 8000' full throttle is only about 75% power. They keep it pulled back to maybe 2200 RPM in a 172, which is an economy cruise setting.


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My Cherokee makes pretty close to book numbers on the rare occasions that I climb to 7500.

The Cardinal is quite a bit slower than book, even with a powerflow exhaust.
 
The numbers for the Comanche are spot on in my experience.
 
170kts recommended cruising speed for the J201? Hahahaha, nope. I true out 150-155.
 
Grumman Tiger (AA5B) book numbers are “right on the money” for my plane, 135 to 139 knots true at optimum altitude depending on conditions.

I think a lot of confusion between actual performane and book performance with some aircraft is due to the propeller mounted on the engine. On the Grumman Tiger, only one pitch is listed in the TDC. I believe Piper aircraft have several allowable pitch props listed. It’s important to know what your prop pitch is before getting too deep into book performance numbers.

I have also read that as a fixed pitch prop ages, or rather as it is subjected to continual minor repair at annuals, the result is a slight flattening of the pitch. A prop with less pitch will contribute to slower speeds, and when added to all the other speed robbing factors previously listed, could add up to a significant reduction from book numbers.
 
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170kts recommended cruising speed for the J201? Hahahaha, nope. I true out 150-155.

But... You fly a 201! It goes 201 miles per hour, right? (Only when flown by the marketing department...) I don't know of anyone who claims any faster than 160 on a J.

Here's how it compares in the planes in which I have a reasonable amount of experience:

182N: 139 recommended, 133 actual
172N: 122 recomhahahahahahahahah! more like 105. Of course, that was in a beat-up rental with 10,000+ hours on it. But you'd have to flog even the new 172s pretty hard to get 122.
DA40: 145. Possible if you flog it, but a good 5 knots optimistic for someone who cares about their airplane (and engine) unless you have an XL(S) which they did not list separately.
M20R: 191. Yeah right. I can get 185 if I flog it at the right altitude, but I normally plan 170 at lower cruise altitudes (6000) up to about 175 at 9-10,000. I run 65% LOP though, definitely not flogging. They also got the fuel capacity and service ceiling wrong, and they're about 150 pounds optimistic on the empty weight too.
PA28R(T)-201 (III and IV): This is the most realistic so far. They say 138, IME the III was 135 and the IV was 140.
PA28-181: 125. Only the newer ones with the full wheel fairings have a chance at this. I think our club's current Archer can hit it, and I've rented another that would do 122. The ones without the full fairings do more like 115, but no distinction is made in this guide.

Certainly, none of the numbers are understated. ;)
 
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