brien23
Cleared for Takeoff
When do you say something, before the accident or after it happens and say you knew it was just a matter of time till it happened. Or is it best to just walk away.
Accident waiting to happen
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Somedudeintn
Cleared for Takeoff
Umm not enough information to provide a good response.
If you are 100% sure an accident will happen then say something.
If your risk assessment is just different than someone else's then don't.
If you are 100% sure an accident will happen then say something.
If your risk assessment is just different than someone else's then don't.
brien23
Cleared for Takeoff
A&P/IA use to rent planes died, family has no idea of what to do, pilots not A&P trying to help out fixing things on the planes. Lots of people trying to help lots of advice but the end result might not be good.
455 Bravo Uniform
Final Approach
Save an unsuspecting renter. Save the family from additional unexpected grief (I'm assuming they may be ignorant?). Save your own grief by not having to think "if only I had said something".
Tom-D
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Tom-D
What would you say and who would you say it to?
The Family is being guided by CFIs with ulterior motives, you say any thing to them you opening a piZZing contest.
Calling the FAA will not get any thing done with out a smoking hole.
Tarheelpilot
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Tarheelpilot
Say something. I didn't once and will regret that choice the rest of my life.
If he says something to whomever is in control of the situation, then he has fulfilled his moral obligation, IMO. I don't think there's any ethical or moral right or obligation to try to force people to act on our concerns.
Tarheelpilot
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I sort of agree. Your position is how I have accepted my role in the situation I referred. I said something to the offending pilot and was ignored. I didn't take it further. I was a CFI at the time and was torn regarding taking further action. In hindsight I should have reached out to an asi at the fsdo. I don't think a private pilot would have any professional duty to goto fsdo but I think instructors do.... just my opinion.
whereisrandall
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Randall Williams
How can they hear best? Will they hear you? If not, who will they listen to?
FlySince9
En-Route
What exactly are they fixing? There are a lot of things that can be done without being a licensed mechanic... If they're doing 100hr signoffs etc, I'd be calling someone. Once overseers are notified you are pretty much out of the loop and morally clear...IMHO...
Tom-D
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Tom-D
We don't know.
Tom-D
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The overseers are who we are worried about.
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
Hmmmm....too many engines....and not enough Chiefs? 
brien23
Cleared for Takeoff
If you are not the owner and the plane is a rental you can't fix anything. Owner operator is the owner and not for hire to work on your own aircraft.
FlySince9
En-Route
It appeared to me that the guy who died was the owner making the family now the owners whom I thought were the ones doing the work...
Ravioli
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Unwanted Guest - Perma-ban Pending
Tough one.
If your intention is to make them aware they are heading into an issue then I'd say talk to them with another operator to help them understand what all it takes. Many/most family members don't know the effort and knowledge that their loved one put into their businesses and hobbies.
If this doesn't seem fruitful, you have to decide between laissez-faire and enforcement. Obviously you don't want to be renting an airplane outside of the rules, but at some point they are going to get caught.
Getting caught doesn't mean a 'smoking hole' for certain. It will happen when those CFI's sign off a CPL check ride and the examiner asks the student to review the logs to determine airworthiness. Oops! Ride canceled, FSDO probably contacted.
If your intention is to make them aware they are heading into an issue then I'd say talk to them with another operator to help them understand what all it takes. Many/most family members don't know the effort and knowledge that their loved one put into their businesses and hobbies.
If this doesn't seem fruitful, you have to decide between laissez-faire and enforcement. Obviously you don't want to be renting an airplane outside of the rules, but at some point they are going to get caught.
Getting caught doesn't mean a 'smoking hole' for certain. It will happen when those CFI's sign off a CPL check ride and the examiner asks the student to review the logs to determine airworthiness. Oops! Ride canceled, FSDO probably contacted.
brien23
Cleared for Takeoff
No, it's the pilots renting the planes non A&P the family has no idea of who is doing what, only that the planes are still renting.
BigBadLou
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Lou
Agreed.
However, if nobody in the family is a pilot, they cannot simply start fixing things by themselves, even under the maintenance clause. One needs to have a PPL on top of being an owner/operator by the FAR. (can't remember the exact paragraph #, somebody google it for me, please)
Are you sure?
43.3:
(g) Except for holders of a sport pilot certificate, the holder of a pilot certificate issued under part 61 may perform preventive maintenance on any aircraft owned or operated by that pilot which is not used under part 121, 129, or 135 of this chapter. The holder of a sport pilot certificate may perform preventive maintenance on an aircraft owned or operated by that pilot and issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category.
1.1:
Operate, with respect to aircraft, means use, cause to use or authorize to use aircraft, for the purpose (except as provided in §91.13 of this chapter) of air navigation including the piloting of aircraft, with or without the right of legal control (as owner, lessee, or otherwise).
Tom-D
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In this case the ownership is a LLC company, and the CFI who's renting the aircraft is neither the owner or the operator. The students rent the aircraft from the LLC and pay the CFI.
The CFI in this case is not an A&P, Not the owner or the operator, yet he repairs the aircraft to keep using them.
last week I laid a word of advice on the CFI, that he was risking his tickets and the owner's house.
he blew me off.
Tom-D
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The Family consists of a old widow, and a son who is not an aviation type.
The Widow is the deep pocket, with land equity.
sferguson524
Pattern Altitude
Sounds like some words with the widow are in order, and if that goes nowhere a call to FSDO.
brien23
Cleared for Takeoff
FAR Part 43 specifies who may do what to an aircraft in the way of maintenance, repair or alteration. It requires that only properly certified mechanics work on aircraft and "okay" them for return to service. However, it does allow preventive maintenance to be performed by a certificated pilot, holding at least a Private certificate, on an aircraft owned or operated by that pilot, provided the aircraft is not used in commercial service.
First the Pilots non A&P do not own the aircraft some don't even fly the twin just want to help as required above. Their just trying to help. Second the aircraft are rental aircraft in commercial service. Third the owners have the logbooks and none of the helpful pilots made any entry as required by 43.9 as to the work done their name and cert. number and return to service.
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Everskyward
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I agree about someone having a talk with the widow and son. If she has deep pockets she could lose a lot. I'm guessing they're simply ignorant of the legalities and liability here.
rtk11
Pattern Altitude
Agreed. Once done, you're mind is at ease knowing you took action in case something happens (hopefully nothing does.) Good luck.
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
well....at least it's being maintained.
I was only discussing your statement about preventive maintenance in post #15, not the specifics of this situation.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Agreed. If she has any self-preservation awareness, she'll seek out an uninvolved professional to look over the operation and the aircraft logs, and find out what the CFI is up to.
paflyer
Final Approach
Sounds like you know more about the situation than what the OP posted.
James331
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For the most part, it's not the things you DO that you regret, it's the things you don't do or say which you later regret.
Besides if you don't say something, you can't say you called it after the fact
Besides if you don't say something, you can't say you called it after the fact