AATD time for instrument hours, PPL? NO SIR

[AndyMac]

My CFI and I both *believed* I could apply my qualified-CFI-instructed 1.2 instrument hours to the 3 hours required of "control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments". Today I learned, by filling out my iacra application, that that is not the case.

I was able to confirm this in RedBird's LOA from the FAA. "Private Pilot Airplane applicants must also complete the requirements for 3 hours of control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments specified in 61.109 in an airplane." So, dang it.

https://landing.redbirdflight.com/p...-time-required-for-ppl-be-done-in-a-simulator

Don't be me. Do your instrument hours in an airplane.

 

[eman1200]

shame on your CFI.

 

[dmspilot]

There are edge cases that IACRA can't deal with, so don't rely on that. But the LOA is the final word and makes it clear.

 

[MauleSkinner]

But the LOA ... makes it clear.

So does the reg.

(3) 3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight;

...as opposed to the instrument rating requirements...

(5) Receive and log training on the areas of operation of paragraph (c) of this section from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, full flight simulator, or flight training device that represents an airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift appropriate to the instrument rating sought;

 

[EdFred]

Reeding iz h@rd

 

[MauleSkinner]

Reeding iz h@rd

I reed, right, speeck and underwear English when the FFA quiremented them again.

 

[AndyMac]

shame on your CFI.

Meh. We both read it. I even researched it, though obviously not well enough.


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[AndyMac]

Reeding iz h@rd

The FAA doesn’t write children’s books. Even courts struggle to interpret their regs...

http://www.flyingmag.com/story/training/fars-interpretation-threatens-flight-instruction/


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[AndyMac]

So does the reg.


...as opposed to the instrument rating requirements...

Problem is, the section on simulators below that one, which allows up to 2.5hr of simulator time, doesn’t specify what you can and can’t count. The LOA does of course... oh well. Wanted to go flying again anyway.


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[Brad Z]

Meh. We both read it. I even researched it, though obviously not well enough.


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I'll forgive you, a student pilot for not knowing or being able to accurately research it. Your instructor, not so much. This is pretty basic stuff in terms of determining if a student meets the aeronautical experience requirements. Is your instructor new?

 

[AndyMac]

I'll forgive you, a student pilot for not knowing or being able to accurately research it. Your instructor, not so much. This is pretty basic stuff in terms of determining if a student meets the aeronautical experience requirements. Is your instructor new?

Not exactly. He’s been a CFI for a while but recently transitioned to doing it full time after leaving his other career after 20+ yrs. I suspect he’s done quite a bit more IFR instruction than primary PPL. Honestly, I’ve perceived the time under the hood as productive in a lot of ways so don’t mind more. I just thought I’d finished everything and then learned that I hadn’t - that’s a stinker of a realization is all.


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[EdFred]

Yeah I don't put this on the student pilot either but the CFI should know, without a doubt. I am not a full-time CFI either but I at least have a cursory knowledge of the regulations especially for what is needed for a check ride.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Problem is, the section on simulators below that one, which allows up to 2.5hr of simulator time, doesn’t specify what you can and can’t count. The LOA does of course... oh well. Wanted to go flying again anyway.

It does, but part of the problem is a set of very technical definitions, most of which were either created or revised only three years ago. The section talks about "a maximum of 2.5 hours of training in a full flight simulator or flight training device" (my emphasis). An "aviation training device" is neither.

But ultimately, ground-based devices are limited to their LOA.