AA Mechanic charged with sabotage (today's news story)

wsuffa

wsuffa

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Bill S.
Same problem as the Seattle rampie stealing the airplane.

The customer side has massive security theater and the ramp side will hire anybody, pay them crap, and wonder why they get who they get.

Slightly different since this guy made it to the high status of “maintenance” guy. Puts the background check problem squarely on the airline.

If it goes the way I think it’ll go, expect a new $100M program requiring all of us who dare step past the customer side to the company side of any airport to have a government issued “okay” and background check.

Amazed that they haven’t done it sooner. And given the airlines legal immunity for any negligence in this regard.
 
denverpilot said:
Puts the background check problem squarely on the airline.
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Not completely. To get SIDA access, it requires a TSA background check, including watch lists. I believe that FAA certificate holders (e.g. A&P) are background checked by the FAA periodically, but not sure of the timing.

So the responsibility is shared.
 
wsuffa said:
Not completely. To get SIDA access, it requires a TSA background check, including watch lists. I believe that FAA certificate holders (e.g. A&P) are background checked by the FAA periodically, but not sure of the timing.

So the responsibility is shared.
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The FAA doesn't do background checks.
 
denverpilot said:
Slightly different since this guy made it to the high status of “maintenance” guy. Puts the background check problem squarely on the airline.
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Wonder how many promotions he got because HR was afraid of not promoting him and not looking cultured.



MauleSkinner said:
Hang him...political/terrorist affiliations or not.
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Lest we get all the facts straight first.

Also I’d wager tons of people have watched one of those videos.
 
wsuffa said:
Not completely. To get SIDA access, it requires a TSA background check, including watch lists. I believe that FAA certificate holders (e.g. A&P) are background checked by the FAA periodically, but not sure of the timing.

So the responsibility is shared.
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Are there continuing background checks, is the question. Isn’t this guy 60 years old? If I get checked ten years ago when hired and then change in the intervening years, how is that caught?
 
EppyGA said:
Are there continuing background checks, is the question. Isn’t this guy 60 years old? If I get checked ten years ago when hired and then change in the intervening years, how is that caught?
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Well presuming it was what they say it is

Background checks
Which have zero use if the person doesn’t have a background, wonder how much recorded keeping you find in war torn Iraq, I’d also wager it’s pretty easy to find someone in bombed out Iraq who doesn’t exactly like the US.

Invading countries then letting their people immigrate here, that’s right up there with punching kids on the playground, stealing their lunch and then inviting them over for a sleep over.
 
EppyGA said:
Are there continuing background checks, is the question. Isn’t this guy 60 years old? If I get checked ten years ago when hired and then change in the intervening years, how is that caught?
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Good question. Should be for SIDA, don't know about other stuff. TSA and the airport security office specify the checks.

Of course, I live in a different world up here, and I do know that there is an ongoing check process for those that have DC FRZ approval.
 
So we’re saying there is a process in place and instead of needing money to ramp up a new one, we will just hear a sob story about how underfunded the current one is. LOL.
 
We get new SIDA checks every couple years.

The guy needs to be hung. That was not a quest of overtime, that was attempted murder.
 
The problem is the delusion that if we enact enough laws and impose enough red tape, we can eliminate all risk and have a perfect world.

My response is that we don't need to do anything in response to this other than send the perp to prison. He sabotaged an aircraft. He admitted it. His motivations are pretty much irrelevant to the government's ability to convict him based on his own admissions. So do it.

Regarding changes to the SIDA process, however, they're simply not needed, nor would they be effective. When was the last time you heard of a mechanic deliberately sabotaging an airliner? It's not exactly something that happens every day.

Furthermore, considering that many ramp workers work very hard, under very bad conditions, for very little money, how much more invasive can the background checks get before people stop applying for the jobs? And is the bad behavior so prevalent that it's something we even need to do anything about?

Most of the humps working for third-party fleet service companies make just barely over the minimum wage. They could make the same or more money at much easier jobs, with better hours, that don't require working their asses off outside, at all hours of the day and night, weekends and holidays included, in all kinds of weather. Most of them work there because they love aircraft and aviation -- and they'd rather work even the ****tiest jobs in aviation than do anything else. The vast majority of these folks wouldn't think of doing anything that would damage an aircraft or endanger its pax.

But once in a very great while, one will. When that happens, it happens. We can't have a perfect world. So put the bastard in prison, and carry on.

Rich
 
MauleSkinner said:
True...just because the “news” said he confessed to sabotaging an airplane doesn’t mean he actually confessed to it.
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I trust all that less than gas station sushi.

If he did it, his life is forfit.

I’d like to hear the WHOLE story before
I decided who/whom to place the blame.
 
MauleSkinner said:
True...just because the “news” said he confessed to sabotaging an airplane doesn’t mean he actually confessed to it.
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Federal law-enforcement agencies are required to videotape all interrogations.

Rich
 
RJM62 said:
Federal law-enforcement agencies are required to videotape all interrogations.
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Most law enforcement stays faaaaar away from labeling anything an “interrogation”. Both for legal and public relations reasons.

It’s a “discussion” or an “investigation”. Never “interrogation”.

That word is completely taboo from the six figure PR person’s office that every agency has nowadays, and everyone knows it. :)

In fact that was one of the things that I found quaint in that Alaska video someone posted from the news in the 80s in another thread. The reporter actually had direct access to the bureaucrat without a PR person present.

That’s unheard of today. All official media contacts must touch the PR person or be cut off from receiving any information from them, forevermore.
 
RJM62 said:
Federal law-enforcement agencies are required to videotape all interrogations.

Rich
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I’m sure he’ll say whatever he’s sposed to say, this is just a shot in the dark, but after the Snowden files I probably trust the FBI/NSA less than the news media.

He’s a older middle eastern dude, I don’t know a whole ton of the culture but I do know they often have pretty big families, I’d wager he’s still got some family in lawless Iraq where we, and some not so friendly locals, still have a pretty strong hold, where there is TONS of corruption and unsolved killings and collateral damage everyday.

I’d also think a guy who’s been at this job for as long as he has could have been much more stealthy and much more deadly in what he did if he wanted to.

If I was playing the odds, I’d wager someone told him to do XYZ and say XYZ or ABC will happen to whomever, and as a older guy who probably cares more about his family than himself, he did it.

Again it’s all just a guess, but this whole thing kinda smells funky.



Reminded me of a line in a movie about horses.
 
I had to look up IBTL...If he was acting for a Muslim terror group or not in my book you could consider him a domestic terrorist if he did what he is alleged to have done...Terrorist either way...
 
Background check and screening isn’t going to stop anyone from doing their first bad, horrible thing. It will only at best prevent someone who has had a history of doing bad things hopefully keep them from doing it again..maybe.
We need precogs...
 
benyflyguy said:
Background check and screening isn’t going to stop anyone from doing their first bad, horrible thing. It will only at best prevent someone who has had a history of doing bad things hopefully keep them from doing it again..maybe.
We need precogs...
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Yup. But it does help fund a lot of people pretending to know what will happen.

Someone with a spreadsheet figured out he had “ties” to bad people elsewhere two or three weeks after the fact. Maybe they got an extra donut when their database search found it for them.

$50B a year for that intel.

The more interesting question is, we all know that data was in the database long before the event, so who decided to release it, and why?

Wag the dog...
 
"The database"? Doesn't work like that - Google big data, Hadoop, data scientist. Lot's of potential gaps, and also plenty of inspired "finds", as well. Like six degrees of Kevin Bacon, you know somene who knows someone who knows someone who isn't dead. Definetly not air tight, sure. But a better spend than, say, NextGen. . .

Like physical security - a fence alone can't keep the bad guys off airport. Cameras won't. Active patrols won't. Sensors won't, etc. But combined, the measures become effective. Shoot, you still lock the front door, even if you know the porch window has a broken lock. . .
 
RJM62 said:
The problem is the delusion that if we enact enough laws and impose enough red tape, we can eliminate all risk and have a perfect world.

My response is that we don't need to do anything in response to this other than send the perp to prison. He sabotaged an aircraft. He admitted it. His motivations are pretty much irrelevant to the government's ability to convict him based on his own admissions. So do it.

Regarding changes to the SIDA process, however, they're simply not needed, nor would they be effective. When was the last time you heard of a mechanic deliberately sabotaging an airliner? It's not exactly something that happens every day.

Furthermore, considering that many ramp workers work very hard, under very bad conditions, for very little money, how much more invasive can the background checks get before people stop applying for the jobs? And is the bad behavior so prevalent that it's something we even need to do anything about?

Most of the humps working for third-party fleet service companies make just barely over the minimum wage. They could make the same or more money at much easier jobs, with better hours, that don't require working their asses off outside, at all hours of the day and night, weekends and holidays included, in all kinds of weather. Most of them work there because they love aircraft and aviation -- and they'd rather work even the ****tiest jobs in aviation than do anything else. The vast majority of these folks wouldn't think of doing anything that would damage an aircraft or endanger its pax.

But once in a very great while, one will. When that happens, it happens. We can't have a perfect world. So put the bastard in prison, and carry on.

Rich
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Bingo. Which is precisely why this isn't going to happen. More regulations and BS for those who are not inclined to break existing law, and they will have no impact on those who plan on doing evil. Where have I heard this "solution" before??? :rolleyes:
 
James331 said:
I’d also think a guy who’s been at this job for as long as he has could have been much more stealthy and much more deadly in what he did if he wanted to.
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If a mechanic wants to ground an airliner for overtime there is plenty of safe ways to do that, no sabotage at all required. Any experienced mechanic knows that. Disabling the air data system is attempted murder IMO.
 
Sundancer said:
"The database"? Doesn't work like that - Google big data, Hadoop, data scientist. Lot's of potential gaps, and also plenty of inspired "finds", as well. Like six degrees of Kevin Bacon, you know somene who knows someone who knows someone who isn't dead. Definetly not air tight, sure. But a better spend than, say, NextGen. . .

Like physical security - a fence alone can't keep the bad guys off airport. Cameras won't. Active patrols won't. Sensors won't, etc. But combined, the measures become effective. Shoot, you still lock the front door, even if you know the porch window has a broken lock. . .
Click to expand...

You ever thought about working PR for a faith healer? I hear they have nice jets. LOL.

Which of those things stopped either of the events? Oh right, they didn’t. Yay “security by ten ineffective measures combined”. LOL. Looks like they weren’t “effective”.

I use “database” in public or “spreadsheet” because the average person doesn’t know jack about data handling at scale. It’s just a habit. Most people wouldn’t know a Hadoop if one bit them in the butt.

I do know this all about the modern incantations of big data. It regularly tries to sell me women’s shoes. One of the laziest systems people I know went to work for one of the places selling that snake oil. No objective measurement of success required. I could say more, but their investors like setting bonfires with cash, and they pay him really well to keep systems that accomplish little, running 24/7. Wouldn’t want to ruin it for him.

I can’t think of a much easier place to get things on and off of than a major airport ramp. Watch the door code keypads on the exits to the ramp from the terminal sometime. Not exactly biometrics going on there, and I’ve installed those and man traps and had to use them.

A false sense of security is worse than none at all. The ramp side isn’t secure. How many drug rings have been caught operating from them in recent years? Moving how much material? LOL.

Pro burglars don’t attack doors. They don’t even attack the patio windows. The usual window to attack is the skinny thing next to the front door. Can look like you’re delivering a package and squeeze right in. There’s always a way around the deadbolts and nicely installed strike plates.

Watch some of the presentations on physical security from DEFCON sometime, and realize those speakers aren’t giving away their best tricks. Not by a long shot. Otherwise nobody would need to hire them.

Meanwhile back to this dude. The whole story of ISIS ties is suspicious for one reason. There’s no reason to show that hole card. Not for a labor dispute.

The question to always ask when a piece of info comes from a source that’s normally secret... who gains from releasing this information?

“We found ISIS ties, trust us!” Uhhh sure. Who authorized you to release that? Black hole. Where was this link found? Black hole. Why were you even looking if this is a simple labor dispute? Crickets.
 
Warlock said:
I had to look up IBTL...If he was acting for a Muslim terror group or not in my book you could consider him a domestic terrorist if he did what he is alleged to have done...Terrorist either way...
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2339(b)... Material support.
 
Unit74 said:
Never seen that law on the books. Mind sharing.....?
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https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/23/...-reverse-ban-on-recording-interrogations.html

I can't find the memorandum ("Policy Concerning Electronic Recording of Statements," dated May 12, 2014, signed by Deputy Attorney General James. M. Cole) anywhere that doesn't require a login and password to view it. Maybe you can.

There are a few exceptions to the policy, none of which would seem to apply in this case.

Rich

EDIT: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...s-for-videotaping-the-questioning-of-suspects
 
Whether it was terrorism or a misguided job action, this guy needs to spend a significant amount of time in jail.
 
PaulS said:
Whether it was terrorism or a misguided job action, this guy needs to spend a significant amount of time in jail.
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Ofcourse

However I’d be much more interested to find out how a 60yr old mechanic all of a sudden goes all isis, I’d wager there is much more to this story.
 
James331 said:
Ofcourse

However I’d be much more interested to find out how a 60yr old mechanic all of a sudden goes all isis, I’d wager there is much more to this story.
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My interest is somewhat mitigated by my concerns that the authoritarian forces that be will use "make sure this never happens again" as an excuse for even more unnecessary and draconian security measures. Few words strike fear in my heart anymore, but "make sure this never happens again" are among them.

Rich
 
RJM62 said:
My interest is somewhat mitigated by my concerns that the authoritarian forces that be will use "make sure this never happens again" as an excuse for even more unnecessary and draconian security measures. Few words strike fear in my heart anymore, but "make sure this never happens again" are among them.

Rich
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Agreed,

I think what will be telling is what happens now.

Does he just get a trial and all this fizzles out from the public eye
Or
Do a bunch of government and media people use this to push expensive and anti human rights programs and laws, even more regulations on top of our already too many regulations, that would would be telling.

Not like governments (ours included) never let something bad happen to push a agenda, or even made something happen. Golf of Tonkin anyone?

https://washingtonsblog.com/2015/02/41-admitted-false-flag-attacks.html
 
James331 said:
Ofcourse

However I’d be much more interested to find out how a 60yr old mechanic all of a sudden goes all isis, I’d wager there is much more to this story.
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I’m really surprised that our primary conspiracy theorist doesn’t for one second believe this guy could be a sleeper, and was activated to create a big diversion here in the US just before the Saudi refinery attacks. Chew on that one. I made it just for you! :)
 
Lachlan said:
I’m really surprised that our primary conspiracy theorist doesn’t for one second believe this guy could be a sleeper, and was activated to create a big diversion here in the US just before the Saudi refinery attacks. Chew on that one. I made it just for you! :)
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Nah, I just read history and like to play devils advocate

With his age and where he was in his career, thats a loooooooooong sleep.
I’d wager if you went to most any 60yr old who had a big family and told them to sabotage something at work or their grandkids would be killed or something, I’d bet 9.9/10 wouldn’t think twice. Also the way he did it, just seems very half hearted if he was a sleeper waiting over half a century to attack I’d think he could have done much worse, his age plus the half arsed sabotage, again just a guess, but I think something else was going on behind the scenes.

But yes, the timing is interesting.
 
James331 said:
Nah, I just read history and like to play devils advocate

With his age and where he was in his career, thats a loooooooooong sleep.
I’d wager if you went to most any 60yr old who had a big family and told them to sabotage something at work or their grandkids would be killed or something, I’d bet 9.9/10 wouldn’t think twice. Also the way he did it, just seems very half hearted if he was a sleeper waiting over half a century to attack I’d think he could have done much worse, his age plus the half arsed sabotage, again just a guess, but I think something else was going on behind the scenes.

But yes, the timing is interesting.
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That's why I tend to think he probably was telling the truth about just wanting the OT pay. If it was terror-related, his heart obviously wasn't in it. There were many things he could have done that wouldn't be noticed / have their effect until the plane was at altitude.

Rich
 
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