A380 beats up on smaller guy

It's amazing everyone made it out alive... :rolleyes2:

Safety scare? Really?
 
Just watched that on the news a couple minutes ago. That Delta Connection really got whacked.

Those small airplanes are scary.
 
Those small airplanes are scary.

Yeah, I want to fly on a nice, quality-built airplane like an AirBus...

af-447-airbus-tail-section.jpg


r
 
Yeah, I want to fly on a nice, quality-built airplane like an AirBus...

The crew most likely flys an airplane into a thunderstorm and it's the airplanes fault? Hopefully we'll know soon for sure what happened if they find the recorders.

I've around 4500 hours in Boeing products and around 4500 hours in Airbus products. Shut down at least 3 engines in Boeings that I can think of off the top of my head. None in Airbuses. Declared non medical emergencies at least 5 times in a Boeing. Once in an Airbus. From my perspective, it's hard to knock Airbus. Don't get me wrong, I still prefer Boeings, and think you will see a higher percentage of old Boeings flying around than ol Airbuses. But it's hard to say they aren't quality airplanes.
 
The crew most likely flys an airplane into a thunderstorm and it's the airplanes fault? Hopefully we'll know soon for sure what happened if they find the recorders.

I've around 4500 hours in Boeing products and around 4500 hours in Airbus products. Shut down at least 3 engines in Boeings that I can think of off the top of my head. None in Airbuses. Declared non medical emergencies at least 5 times in a Boeing. Once in an Airbus. From my perspective, it's hard to knock Airbus. Don't get me wrong, I still prefer Boeings, and think you will see a higher percentage of old Boeings flying around than ol Airbuses. But it's hard to say they aren't quality airplanes.

The crew flying the plane into the thunderstorm is their fault. The way that the airplane handled it is definitely the fault of the manufacturer. I have issues with the systems on the Airbus, and disagree with the overall design philosophy. Sure, they'll last longer than what I fly, but they're also in a completely different world.

As to the engines or medical emergencies, I fail to see how either of those are related to the plane itself. Neither Boeing nor Airbus produce their own engines, and the medical emergencies are primarily a function of the people on board.
 
The crew flying the plane into the thunderstorm is their fault. The way that the airplane handled it is definitely the fault of the manufacturer. I have issues with the systems on the Airbus, and disagree with the overall design philosophy. Sure, they'll last longer than what I fly, but they're also in a completely different world.

As to the engines or medical emergencies, I fail to see how either of those are related to the plane itself. Neither Boeing nor Airbus produce their own engines, and the medical emergencies are primarily a function of the people on board.
He said non-medical emergencies. I missed it the first time as well. Must be our old eyes.
 
As to the engines or medical emergencies, I fail to see how either of those are related to the plane itself. Neither Boeing nor Airbus produce their own engines, and the medical emergencies are primarily a function of the people on board.

Read it again:

I've around 4500 hours in Boeing products and around 4500 hours in Airbus products. Shut down at least 3 engines in Boeings that I can think of off the top of my head. None in Airbuses. Declared non medical emergencies at least 5 times in a Boeing. Once in an Airbus. From my perspective, it's hard to knock Airbus. Don't get me wrong, I still prefer Boeings, and think you will see a higher percentage of old Boeings flying around than ol Airbuses. But it's hard to say they aren't quality airplanes.
 
Ground, this is A380, just let us know if we're up in anybody's grille OK? Rodjahhhhhh!!! :cornut:
 
The crew flying the plane into the thunderstorm is their fault. The way that the airplane handled it is definitely the fault of the manufacturer. I have issues with the systems on the Airbus, and disagree with the overall design philosophy. Sure, they'll last longer than what I fly, but they're also in a completely different world.

As to the engines or medical emergencies, I fail to see how either of those are related to the plane itself. Neither Boeing nor Airbus produce their own engines, and the medical emergencies are primarily a function of the people on board.

What exactly did the airplane do that doesn't meet your standards or behave any differently than another manufacturer? What is the"overall design philosophy" that you disagree with? They meet the same certification standards as the rest of the manufacturers. They may do it in a different way, but they meet them.

Last time I checked, engines were part of the systems on an airplane that a manufacturer installed and certified. Most of the systems installed on all new aircraft are contracted out to some one else in one way or another. Does that mean the manufacturer isn't responsible?

Read my post, I said non medical emergencies. Even throwing out the three engine shutdowns, Boeing is still down 2 to 1 in my book. But I don't go around saying Boeing products aren't quality aircraft. I'm just wondering how showing a picture of AF floating in the Atlantic is proof that Airbus doesn't make a quality product. Especially when they don't yet know all the facts.
 
I think they should show the video during the safety demo to illustrate why you should keep your seat belt fastened until stopped at the gate and the seat belt sign is off!
 
He said non-medical emergencies. I missed it the first time as well. Must be our old eyes.

Oops, got it. My eyes get weary after having to spot all the kids I yell at to get off my lawn.

What exactly did the airplane do that doesn't meet your standards or behave any differently than another manufacturer? What is the"overall design philosophy" that you disagree with? They meet the same certification standards as the rest of the manufacturers. They may do it in a different way, but they meet them.

Meeting certification standards hardly means that you have a good product. All it means is that you've met a prescribed battery of tests, which really only tell you with any certainty that you've built a product that passes that battery of tests. The real test of a product's durability is when it's in the field for a number of years. There have been enough major problems to slip through certification on various aircraft to show that, while it has value, it by no means establishes that development is complete.

Last time I checked, engines were part of the systems on an airplane that a manufacturer installed and certified. Most of the systems installed on all new aircraft are contracted out to some one else in one way or another. Does that mean the manufacturer isn't responsible?

So if the IO-540s in my Aztec fail it's Piper's fault? Good to know, maybe then the engine manufacturers will stop getting sued so much.

Aircraft engines have a completely different set of certification requirements from the airframe. Yes, the complete aircraft is tested for certification, including the engine(s), however those engines have to be certified themselves before they can be put on. I'm more familiar with certification requirements for the piston-powered birds that I fly and deal with, but knowing the amount of certification work an engine has to go through before it can even be put on a certified aircraft, I believe it is, in fact, a separate entity.

As to the general philosophy: I do not like having the systems so overcomputerized that it is very possible for pilots to not have authority over the aircraft. Too much auto-everything. Does it work most of the time? Yes, it does. I'm sure it works much more reliably than anything I fly. I still don't like it, and it's my perogative to be a luddite. I like metal airplanes, I don't like the composites used on the tail, which have had issues on more than one occasion (excluding that Air France flight).

Is there anything wrong with composites? Arguable, but I've spent enough time flying in composite aircraft that obviously I'm not hugely afraid of dying in one. That doesn't mean I have to like them.

Read my post, I said non medical emergencies. Even throwing out the three engine shutdowns, Boeing is still down 2 to 1 in my book. But I don't go around saying Boeing products aren't quality aircraft. I'm just wondering how showing a picture of AF floating in the Atlantic is proof that Airbus doesn't make a quality product. Especially when they don't yet know all the facts.

My mistake, my eyes are getting old.

I think overall you're missing the point - I just don't like Airbus aircraft, same as some people don't like Fords or Chevys. You may not like the planes I fly, and if you don't, I really don't care. I like them, that's what matters.
 
Yeah, I want to fly on a nice, quality-built airplane like an AirBus...

af-447-airbus-tail-section.jpg

I'd like to point out the fact the swimmer is wearing only a SPEEDO and fins in the open ocean. Notice the fact that everybody else is in a wetsuit. That guy is tough as nails.

Er, carry on!
 
I'd like to point out the fact the swimmer is wearing only a SPEEDO and fins in the open ocean. Notice the fact that everybody else is in a wetsuit. That guy is tough as nails.

Er, carry on!

I believe we have just had the most important post of this entire thread!
 
Can't be!
PIC is always final authority ((even if the glue joints fail)) :rolleyes2:

I aggree, my first post was in jest. All the pundits keep talking about how it was probably ATC's fault and they shouldn't have let the AF plane down that alley. BS.

I think they should show the video during the safety demo to illustrate why you should keep your seat belt fastened until stopped at the gate and the seat belt sign is off!

Damn right! That was always one of my biggest pet peeves, and this couldn't have been a more graphic example of why that rule is there.
 
""Meeting certification standards hardly means that you have a good product. All it means is that you've met a prescribed battery of tests, which really only tell you with any certainty that you've built a product that passes that battery of tests. The real test of a product's durability is when it's in the field for a number of years. There have been enough major problems to slip through certification on various aircraft to show that, while it has value, it by no means establishes that development is complete.""

I agree completely, just haven't seen any evidence that Airbus aircraft are less reliable than any other brand so far.



""So if the IO-540s in my Aztec fail it's Piper's fault? Good to know, maybe then the engine manufacturers will stop getting sued so much.""

See if the lawyers don't name Piper in the suit even if the IO-540 causes a crash.

""Aircraft engines have a completely different set of certification requirements from the airframe. Yes, the complete aircraft is tested for certification, including the engine(s), however those engines have to be certified themselves before they can be put on. I'm more familiar with certification requirements for the piston-powered birds that I fly and deal with, but knowing the amount of certification work an engine has to go through before it can even be put on a certified aircraft, I believe it is, in fact, a separate entity.""

You are correct. Part 25 for transport category aircraft and Part 33 (I think) for engines. They are still part of the type certificate for the AC.

""As to the general philosophy: I do not like having the systems so overcomputerized that it is very possible for pilots to not have authority over the aircraft. Too much auto-everything. Does it work most of the time? Yes, it does. I'm sure it works much more reliably than anything I fly. I still don't like it, and it's my perogative to be a luddite. I like metal airplanes, I don't like the composites used on the tail, which have had issues on more than one occasion (excluding that Air France flight).

Is there anything wrong with composites? Arguable, but I've spent enough time flying in composite aircraft that obviously I'm not hugely afraid of dying in one. That doesn't mean I have to like them.""

OK. Valid concerns worth discussing. The Airbus won't let the pilot exceed 67 degrees bank, get too fast, get too slow or exceed too many Gs. All things to avoid in large aircraft. Other than that, it flies pretty much like any other airplne. With multiple failures of redundant systems, it reverts to a normal dumb airplane and you start loosing those protections, but it still flys just fine. Even with complete electrical failure, you still have control of the thrust, and enough flight controls to fly and land the aircraft.

Composites are a large part of any modern aircraft. Much is made of the vertical stab on the AA 300 in New York which separated after pilot inputs exceeded design parameters. Hard to prevent that but you can't design for or anticipate every stupid pilot trick. Not sure if even an all metal aircraft would have held together.

""My mistake, my eyes are getting old.

I think overall you're missing the point - I just don't like Airbus aircraft, same as some people don't like Fords or Chevys. You may not like the planes I fly, and if you don't, I really don't care. I like them, that's what matters.""

Not missing the point at all. I don't know and don't care what you fly. But when a Ford guy starts bad mouthing Chevys, you gotta expect a Chevy guy to call him on it.
 
I believe we have just had the most important post of this entire thread!

Well, I challenge you to find a photo of a broken-off Boeing tail with a man wearing only a speedo and fins on top.

Discuss amongst yourselves....
 
Well, I challenge you to find a photo of a broken-off Boeing tail with a man wearing only a speedo and fins on top.

Discuss amongst yourselves....

Well that settles it...men in Speedos (Speedoes?) only fly Airbus (Airbusii?)! So only fly on Boeings unless you like guys in Speedos. Now if only we had Speedo-related photographic evidence vis a vis hi/low wing!
 
What exactly did the airplane do that doesn't meet your standards or behave any differently than another manufacturer? What is the"overall design philosophy" that you disagree with? They meet the same certification standards as the rest of the manufacturers. They may do it in a different way, but they meet them.

Last time I checked, engines were part of the systems on an airplane that a manufacturer installed and certified. Most of the systems installed on all new aircraft are contracted out to some one else in one way or another. Does that mean the manufacturer isn't responsible?

Read my post, I said non medical emergencies. Even throwing out the three engine shutdowns, Boeing is still down 2 to 1 in my book. But I don't go around saying Boeing products aren't quality aircraft. I'm just wondering how showing a picture of AF floating in the Atlantic is proof that Airbus doesn't make a quality product. Especially when they don't yet know all the facts.

You were probably running LOP though. LOL
All joking aside if it ain't boeing I ain't going....
I don't like French cars, planes, or their women with unshaved legs and arm pits.
 
Shut down at least 3 engines in Boeings that I can think of off the top of my head. None in Airbuses.

Since neither Boeing nor Airbus make engines, and give buyers a choice between GE and Rolls Royce with some Pratt & Whitney thrown in for good measure, on various airframes, I fail to see the logical conclusion here.
 
Meeting certification standards hardly means that you have a good product. All it means is that you've met a prescribed battery of tests, which really only tell you with any certainty that you've built a product that passes that battery of tests. The real test of a product's durability is when it's in the field for a number of years.

Similar to comments that many of us with brains said when ISO 9000, 9001, 9002, 9003, and 9004 certifications were all the rage with execs.

"So you're saying we'll document how to build this lousy product to the Nth degree and spend millions doing it, so we can accurately say we built every crappy one the exact same way? How 'bout we put the money into making it better?"

They did ISO anyway. Of course.

Those Firestone tires that killed folks on the Ford Explorers?

Boss has a photo of the shuttered abandoned plant with their "Proud to be ISO 9001 Certified" sign still out front.
 
I forgot my favorite one...

"Quality Assurance is a company culture, not a Department that Engineering can blame for delaying shipments of new products."
 
Since neither Boeing nor Airbus make engines, and give buyers a choice between GE and Rolls Royce with some Pratt & Whitney thrown in for good measure, on various airframes, I fail to see the logical conclusion here.

as do I
 
What exactly did the airplane do that doesn't meet your standards or behave any differently than another manufacturer? What is the"overall design philosophy" that you disagree with? They meet the same certification standards as the rest of the manufacturers. They may do it in a different way, but they meet them.

I think the philosophy issue in general is the pilots aversion to the fact that the aircraft control system can over ride them. As a pilot, I understand the issue. As a passenger who knows pilots and knows that the odds say that it's most likely human factors that cause accidents, I'm not so sure I mind.
 
You were probably running LOP though. LOL
All joking aside if it ain't boeing I ain't going....
I don't like French cars, planes, or their women with unshaved legs and arm pits.


Plenty of them shave their legs and pits, many even prepare dinner.
Nothing particularly wrong with French women. BTW Who else you know built a car you could drive with a wheel missing?
 
I agree completely, just haven't seen any evidence that Airbus aircraft are less reliable than any other brand so far.

And it sounds like you have more experience on the matter than me when it comes to Airbus. However the issues I've heard of with Airbus aircraft (specifically with regards to structural integrity) are really what bother me. I'm less concerned with frequency of failures than overall severity. If my GPS goes out 10 times, that's significantly more tolerable than my tail falling off once.

See if the lawyers don't name Piper in the suit even if the IO-540 causes a crash.

I'm sure they will, but ultimately in that case, the engine manufacturer is going to receive the brunt of the lawsuit.

You are correct. Part 25 for transport category aircraft and Part 33 (I think) for engines. They are still part of the type certificate for the AC.

That is true, but Part 33 (and these days DO-160/178 for anything with a computer) prescribes a battery of tests that are the real certification of the engine. The certification of the airframe (with the engine as a component) really puts very little on the engine itself.

OK. Valid concerns worth discussing. The Airbus won't let the pilot exceed 67 degrees bank, get too fast, get too slow or exceed too many Gs. All things to avoid in large aircraft. Other than that, it flies pretty much like any other airplne. With multiple failures of redundant systems, it reverts to a normal dumb airplane and you start loosing those protections, but it still flys just fine. Even with complete electrical failure, you still have control of the thrust, and enough flight controls to fly and land the aircraft.

Not letting the pilot do all those things sounds like a good idea, until those systems break and think they're preventing the pilot from doing something when in reality they aren't. There are situations (albeit exceedingly rare) when the options are to do something you shouldn't do, or end up a smoking hole in the ground. I'd rather maintain that option.

I think it's a typical American vs. European design philosophy difference. I want to have control of what's going on, and I don't want something else taking it away from me. European thought processes in general don't mind relinquishing control like American.

Composites are a large part of any modern aircraft. Much is made of the vertical stab on the AA 300 in New York which separated after pilot inputs exceeded design parameters. Hard to prevent that but you can't design for or anticipate every stupid pilot trick. Not sure if even an all metal aircraft would have held together.

That is a question that we don't know the answer to (and one that I haven't done the calculations on). However, the general properties of composites vs. metal tend to indicate that composites either hold together, or they don't. Metal can bend and be forgiving in ways that composites typically can't. You generally have composites that are very brittle, but metals are usually not.

As such, I've typically seen metals offer more forgiving responses to overstressing than composites. Again, there is certainly variation here - there are plenty of metals that can have fatigue fractures develop in such a manner as to make it impossible for the user to detect until a failure occurs which is very unforgiving.

Keep in mind that I don't like Cirrus aircraft, either. The Lancair is about the only composite aircraft I like, and that's primarily because of its performance and economy. However the planes I fly are still all-metal, and if I bought a Lancair, it would be for significantly different flying than what I do now.

Not missing the point at all. I don't know and don't care what you fly. But when a Ford guy starts bad mouthing Chevys, you gotta expect a Chevy guy to call him on it.

Actually, I'd expect the Chevy guy to badmouth the Fords in retaliation. But maybe the Chevy/Ford guys where you grew up were different than the ones where I grew up. ;)
 
Not letting the pilot do all those things sounds like a good idea, until those systems break and think they're preventing the pilot from doing something when in reality they aren't. There are situations (albeit exceedingly rare) when the options are to do something you shouldn't do, or end up a smoking hole in the ground. I'd rather maintain that option.

Name one time where that has happened.

You generally have composites that are very brittle, but metals are usually not.

Well, they aren't until they are. Stresses are cumulative in metal (metal fatigue). I don't know enough about composites to know. But know this, all of the major structural components in an Airbus are still metal. At least on the 320.
 
Name one time where that has happened.
Not quite the same thing, but I suspect we are about to find out with UAL 497 that the 'Bus wasn't so smart. From what the NTSB has put out so far it is sounding like the plane cried wolf and told the pilots to shut everything down when there was nothing actually wrong it. Basically computer created emergency. We'll see.
 
To commit the unforgivable error of posting back on topic:
My gut feeling is the RJ may be toast based on $$... Being driven sideways from near the top of the vertical stabilizer may have exceeded the design limit forces on the spars... At the very least the vertical stab will need to have the rivets drilled out and be completely removed from the aircraft and the spars x-rayed for cracks... Also the fuselage might be twisted and will need careful measurements, and the landing gear took a major sideways load so that will need complete disassembly, etc... Depending in the hours on that airframe, it might be more economical to just strip it for parts and junk the fuselage...

I don't know on the Airbus wing how far down the disassembly and testing will go...

denny-o
 
I cannot think of any jet engine manufactured by Boeing. I could be wrong.

And Greg, come on, you must be aware of the Air France 296 incident. Not saying that Boeings don't have a billion lines of code that could also go wrong, but...

Here's my anecdotal evidence. I rode home from England in a 777 next to an aerospace engineer, PhD from MIT. She said she'd never fly Airbus. Plus, my AA pilot buddy swears by Boeing.

That being said, I still view any incidents as a pinhole risk and I would not change a flight based upon equipment (and that includes ATR72s!!!):wink2: Frankly, the ergonomics, from a passenger perspective, of Airbus equipmen are, IMHO, far superior to those of Boeing.
 
Somewhere in my pile of human factors and aviation safety books (which Teller has about half of) is a really neat article on human factors design and control theory as implemented by Boeing and Airbus. It was mostly from a corporate culture perspective, and a design theory perspective, and it argued that Airbus systems took a primarily "human as decision component" versus "human as final command authority" perspective w/r/t interaction design.

I'll see if I can find and cite.

Cheers.
 
Name one time where that has happened.


What about the airbus that flew itself into the trees at the airshow?

I just KNEW someone was going to bring that up. It has been proven that that was plain and simple pilot error, not the fault of the airplane. The fact that "only" three (I am pretty sure) people lost their lives is testament to how well the system worked. If the Captain had had his way, he would have stalled the airplane and many more would have died. As it is, the plane mushed into the trees in a controlled fashion, as it was designed to do. (The controlled part. Obviously the crashing part it wasn't designed to do.)
 
Name one time where that has happened.


What about the airbus that flew itself into the trees at the airshow?

I just KNEW someone was going to bring that up. It has been proven that that was plain and simple pilot error, not the fault of the airplane. The fact that "only" three (I am pretty sure) people lost their lives is testament to how well the system worked. If the Captain had had his way, he would have stalled the airplane and many more would have died. As it is, the plane mushed into the trees in a controlled fashion, as it was designed to do. (The controlled part. Obviously the crashing part it wasn't designed to do.)
 
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