A tale of two Pipers (which one do I purchase)

Kevin16587

Kevin16587

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Kevin16587
Hello POA, I got my PPL last month and I'm shopping for a Piper to do IR training in. I have trained mostly in Pipers and my wife prefers low wings. I am keeping my eye on two different Cherokees for sale that are within my price range. I'm having trouble deciding which one to move forward on. Both are identical models with the same engine (O360). Both would be getting thorough pre buy inspections. Both have complete log books and appear to be in compliance with all the ADs, etc. They even had annuals within a month of each other. All in all, they appear (at least on paper) to be maintained to similar standards. The engines are within 50 hours of each other.

#1 Is near me and I've already seen it. New interior and paint in 2001. Less than mid time on the engine and a new prop at the same time as the overhaul in 2010. Exterior and interior are both in pretty good shape and it's been hangared for at least the last 15 years. Basic IFR avionics with factory comms, transponder and 2 axis auto pilot. It is an inland California plane since new. Here's the interesting part. The airframe has about 10,000 hours. It was a former club plane and it averaged about 300 per year.

#2 Is 8 years older and it's half way across the country. I've only seen pictures. It got a complete "overhaul/rebuild" in 2009 with new paint and interior. Less than mid time on the engine with an overhaul in 2009. The paint and interior look comparable to #1, maybe slightly better. This one spent most of its life down in Louisiana. It also has IFR instruments along with a 430W. No auto pilot. This one has about 7,500 hours and it's about $4K more expensive. Apparently it was owned by a CFII who used it for instruction. It has averaged about 200 hours per year.

Do I go with the inexpensive, really high airframe time one from a dry climate, or the older, more expensive one with 2,000 fewer hours and a 430W that lived down in the gulf? Does the difference in airframe hours mean much when they get that high on a 30+ year old plane? I know that is not a lot of information,but I'm just looking for the perspectives of others. Thanks in advance.


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If you don't mind my asking, what's your budget? I guess it's a 180 sine you're talking O360. Cherokees are everywhere so I don't feel like your choices are limited to these two. If I had to pick, I'd go with lower airframe. I personally don't have a problem with a 10k airframe, but in general people shy away from high time frames. This includes potential buyers when it's your turn to unload it.
 
Congrats on your ticket. IMO this question is more about avionics than about airframes. Are you planning on keeping the aircraft after the IR? It's cheaper to add a WAAS GPS than it is to add an autopilot, so I'd get the one with the autopilot. Either way you'll need an ADS-B out solution. High time on a club plane that's flown regularly doesn't give me agita.
 
Find out how much it will cost to get a WAAS navcom in the closer one. You will need to bring both of them into ADSB compliance. One of them is already a third of the way there. Louisiana is a big state, only a small part of it is actually near the gulf. I personally would value the closer one significantly lower than the one in Loiusiana.
 
As a biased SOB and an amateur aircraft broker, I'd say ditch the Cherokee and buy a Tobago or Tampico. Twice the room of the piper and a fraction of the price for something with factory avionics that are quite possibly younger than you.


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Tampico Trauma said:
As a biased SOB and an amateur aircraft broker, I'd say ditch the Cherokee and buy a Tobago or Tampico. Twice the room of the piper and a fraction of the price for something with factory avionics that are quite possibly younger than you.


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Click to expand...

Depends on the mission. Cherokee 180 will carry more, cruise faster, and burn less fuel than an equivalent TB series airplane. And who cares if the avionics came from the factory or not?

Socata is a fine airplane and ergonomically beats pretty much everything in the class, but you pay for it in speed and payload.
 
I'd totally agree with you on the 'pico, but the Tobago will out climb and out fly a 28-180 and will likely have a factory AP. Agree, OP, what's your mission post-IR?


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Isn't it always a trade off?



I say buy one with under 1500 hours smoh, good logbooks and the best equipment you can afford. Thinking you are going to buy and upgrade is a loosing proposition. Spend more now, or a heluva lot more later. Your choice.
 
Tampico Trauma said:
I'd totally agree with you on the 'pico, but the Tobago will out climb and out fly a 28-180 and will likely have a factory AP. Agree, OP, what's your mission post-IR?


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TB20, sure... TB10/TB200 will more or less match a 28-180 on performance, burning more gas and carrying less. TB200 might eek out 5 to 10 extra knots above 7000 or so as the IO-360 is happier up there than the O-360, but I've flown both in the 3000 to 6000 foot range mostly and they are CLOSE in speed. I've flown both enough to be pretty confident in making that real world assertion.

I agree the OP's mission will determine which route makes sense.

Remember, old Cherokees have many hidden spots for expensive corrosion problems to hide.
 
I'm a self-appointed piper hater unless it's high wing and yellow, so I'm partial.


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Single pilot IFR without an auto pilot is a high workload.
Buying already installed equipment is always lot cheaper than having it installed.
 
Thanks for the replies. My budget is low 40's. I've been looking at all of the sites, boards at the FBO's around here and most of the 180hp planes have been out of my range until these two came along within a few weeks of each other. I would like something with a decent useful load for me (230 lbs) a buddy (most are about my size) and miscellaneous stuff with full tanks. I've looked at everything from Cessnas to Grummans. I fell in love with a Luscomb and a tail dragger 150 (mint condition show winner and still for sale) but my long legs didn't fit. I've just always come back to Pipers. I took my check ride in the Archer I've been renting and I really like that plane. My mission following IR is to get my commercial. I have a friend with a complex that I plan to use. I hope to fly for my current employer at some point. Until then I would use my personal plane for time building and short to moderately long cross countries with friends and/or family.


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I'm 6'1" and all leg. Yes in CA.


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Don't rush. If you have qualms, don't choose, keep looking. I spent 18 months looking for my cherokee all over the country and found it 20 miles from my house.
 
I'm 6'6...out of BFL. If you want to give the Socata a good checkout, I travel between BFL and O20 almost weekly and points north and south on alternating weekends... Let me know.


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I don't really have any concerns with either one. They are both nicer and have fewer hours than the C172 I started on and the Cherokee 140 I did most of my cross country time in. They just happen to be similar in price. One has auto pilot, the other has the 430W. I love reading and navigating using sectionals, so I could take or leave the gps. I'm mostly considering the ADS-B mandate since I plan on keeping it at least that long.

Thanks again for the replies!


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Definitely check all your options. You don't have to have a WAAS GPS for 2020. You have to have a WAAS source. They have "all in one" boxes that will get you compliant for much less. Stratus has a transponder that has a WAAS source, too.
Also, you don't have to be 2020 compliant if you plan to stay out of certain airspace.

Talk to an avionics shop to get some numbers. A certified AP such as an stec can cost more to install than a used 430w. It is always cheaper to buy a plane equipped the way you want. Make sure you can afford any possible repairs. get a thorough pre purchase.
 
If the one nearby is decent, a pre-buy inspection goes well, etc... hidden costs can totally make it worth some extra consideration to get the local bird. You've got to factor in travel expenses, time, etc... when looking at an out of state bird and if something goes wrong on the way home, it's almost always more expensive and frustrating to have repairs done at a distance from home than nearby.
 
Kevin16587 said:
Hello POA, I got my PPL last month and I'm shopping for a Piper to do IR training in. I have trained mostly in Pipers and my wife prefers low wings. I am keeping my eye on two different Cherokees for sale that are within my price range. I'm having trouble deciding which one to move forward on. Both are identical models with the same engine (O360). Both would be getting thorough pre buy inspections. Both have complete log books and appear to be in compliance with all the ADs, etc. They even had annuals within a month of each other. All in all, they appear (at least on paper) to be maintained to similar standards. The engines are within 50 hours of each other.

#1 Is near me and I've already seen it. New interior and paint in 2001. Less than mid time on the engine and a new prop at the same time as the overhaul in 2010. Exterior and interior are both in pretty good shape and it's been hangared for at least the last 15 years. Basic IFR avionics with factory comms, transponder and 2 axis auto pilot. It is an inland California plane since new. Here's the interesting part. The airframe has about 10,000 hours. It was a former club plane and it averaged about 300 per year.

#2 Is 8 years older and it's half way across the country. I've only seen pictures. It got a complete "overhaul/rebuild" in 2009 with new paint and interior. Less than mid time on the engine with an overhaul in 2009. The paint and interior look comparable to #1, maybe slightly better. This one spent most of its life down in Louisiana. It also has IFR instruments along with a 430W. No auto pilot. This one has about 7,500 hours and it's about $4K more expensive. Apparently it was owned by a CFII who used it for instruction. It has averaged about 200 hours per year.

Do I go with the inexpensive, really high airframe time one from a dry climate, or the older, more expensive one with 2,000 fewer hours and a 430W that lived down in the gulf? Does the difference in airframe hours mean much when they get that high on a 30+ year old plane? I know that is not a lot of information,but I'm just looking for the perspectives of others. Thanks in advance.


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I'd buy the first one and add a GTN650
 
one question, the one with the autopilot, what type of auto pilot is it and can it be interfaced with a modern GPS box. if its a old model that will not talk to the GPS then it is about worthless when considering the value of it.

bob
 
MIFlyer said:
I'd buy the first one and add a GTN650
Click to expand...

All else being equal, that is the way I would lean. The cost of investigating and retrieving the plane from the Gulf Coast would be the same as the depreciate hit you'd take on installing a new GPS/Comm in plane #1.

So long as the 10,000 hrs isn't pipeline patrol, it isn't necessarily a big deal. Not like the other one is particularly low time.

I flew a Cherokee 180 for a couple years. Nice planes, and simple to partially fuel to the tabs and still carry 4 real people.

Jeff
 
The auto pilot is a "century 21." It probably came from the factory, correct? One thing worth mentioning, seller #1 has been great with communication, #2 not so much. I do like the idea of adding my own gizmos in the panel as my budget allows.


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I just keep feeling you have other options. I don't know what the asking price is on these planes, but you should be able to get a decent 180 for 40K. I don't know anything about this one, but I ran across it recently. Has STEC AP and 430. Nothing fancy, but much lower hours than the planes you've mentioned. Just food for thought.



1965 Cherokee 180

1965 CHEROKEE 180 • $37,500 • FOR SALE • N8245W 1965 Piper Cherokee 180 Total Time Airframe 4225 Engine 525 SMOH Prop 300 SMOH Average Paint and Interior Garmin 430 KY 197 Com KN 53 Nav Garmin Nav Head Loc/GS King Nav Head Loc/ GS PMA8000B Audio Panel S TEC 30 Autopilot Standby Electric Horizon JPI EDM 730 Engine Monitor 4 Place Intercom Recent Annual $35,000 Jeff • Contact Jeff J. Stanford, Friend of Owner - located St Marys, GA USA • Telephone: 912-674-5937 . 9128821668 . 912-882-4359 • Posted January 11, 2016 •
 
OR you could look at my plane that I'm selling :)

Has a GTN-650 and a STEC 30, mid-time engine. Lots of other good perks. I'm "fairly" negotiable on price, but you won't find a better equipped Piper 180 out there for that price.
 
Thanks for the suggestions! Caramon I looked at your ad when you first posted it. It's a beautiful plane. Over the last year I've narrowed my search down to something post 1973 for the longer fuselage. That puts me into Warriors or Archers. I prefer the performance of the Archer (I've flown both) so that's where I've been looking.


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Fair enough :). And thanks!

For me I decided to go with the plane that would have "most" of what I would need for my mission. So, going back to your original post, whichever one of those planes most closely hits what you want, go for it.

Are you planning on taking people up regularly with you a lot? That's probably the only reason you'd need the longer fuselage. Performance won't be much different between the Archer and the Cherokee 180. Actually the Cherokee 180 will outfly a few of the early model Archers speed-wise.

Regardless, good luck with your purchase, low wings rule! :)
 
My first plane was a 69 Cherokee D with 10K hours. Best value I ever had in a plane.

The hours are an issue for some, so you'll pay less on purchase and sell it for less when you're done. Washes out in the end, but you have a nicer plane in the meantime. At least I did.
 
jnarras, thanks for the information. Resale in a few years was a bit of concern, but I believe I can get a pretty good price on one, so it I might not take too much of a hit when that time comes. I do plan on pretty frequent rear seat passengers. My 10 year old son is pretty tall already. Additionally, I have a commercial pilot friend who is also planning on using it occasionally with his family.


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Caramon13 said:
Fair enough :). And thanks!
Are you planning on taking people up regularly with you a lot? That's probably the only reason you'd need the longer fuselage. Performance won't be much different between the Archer and the Cherokee 180. Actually the Cherokee 180 will outfly a few of the early model Archers speed-wise.

Regardless, good luck with your purchase, low wings rule! :)
Click to expand...

On size:

The short fuselage planes also have a better useful load in most cases. We took four people (average 175 pounds), 36 gallons of gas, and all of our stuff for a week camping at Oshkosh in my 180 and actually hit the CG limit before the weight limit.

That said, if someone is tall or you want to impress them, the longer fuselage is a plus. But keep an eye on weights. You may have a ton of room back there that you can't really use. You definitely don't want something with only 150 or 160hp up front if your goal is to carry four people. A couple of the Warriors that have the gross weight bump might be suitable, but in general four people of any size means 180hp in a Cherokee.

I've come to a rough rule of 11 feet--if the height of the front seater, and the back seater behind them, is less than 11 feet, things are not too bad. Up to 11.5 feet or so may be tolerable depending on the proportions of the individuals; north of 12 feet and someone won't be happy!

My 6 foot 200 pound friend is happy back there... but he's also used to crawling into an F-16 in a g-suit and survival gear.

On Autopilots:

I have a "modern" STEC30 and "ancient" Brittain 4. STEC is the better unit, Brittain is the better company to work with. Contrary to popular belief, old autopilots can work but they normally need some TLC. Ironically, though, the newer autopilots are often outrageously expensive to repair--so they break less but cost as much or more.

In addition, nav hold, GPSS, approach hold are all great... but you don't need them. Arguably you don't need an autopilot period, but I think the biggest bang for the buck is heading hold and altitude hold. Those give you the basics, anything is a plus but you need to weigh the value of it.

I probably would do at least an STEC 30 type autopilot if doing a from scratch install, but as a budget conscious buyer I would not write off an older two axis autopilot as long as it can still be serviced.
 
I was thinking that TTAF didn't make a difference, until I was looking at buying a 9,000 hr plane recently. My loan guy said that he would loan it, but it was pretty much at their limit for TTAF. Of course I am sure that I could find someone to lend me the money no matter what the time is. And honestly high time still doesn't bother me. It's just that it might really limit my buyers pool when I try to sell it again and it is closing in on the magical 10000 number. You sound like you are planning on moving on to bigger and faster in the not-so-distant future, so the high time bird might not not suit your best interests.
 
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