A potentially suicidal pilot?

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I'm posting this anonymously, because I don't want it to become obvious about who this is about. Which is also why I'm going to use "they," instead of "he" or "she," for all you grammarians out there.

So, I've become very concerned about a pilot acquaintance. I have never flown with this pilot, and certainly never would at this point, so I don't have firsthand knowledge of how they fly. However, they have told me some things about their flights that have left me very concerned about their safety. Before I begin with details, this person is a low-time (perhaps 130 to 140 hours) sport pilot.

Among the transgressions they have "confessed" to: twice flying close to the legal limit for sport pilots of 10,000 feet MSL in order to "get above the clouds," admittedly once with very little reference to the ground; cruising through a Class D airspace without having any clue until it was too late, and "maybe" violating another Class D airspace once because they were confused about the intended landing airport; using up all available runway to land, even though we're only talking a light sport plane, and the shortest runway lengths are 3,000 feet or so; and admitting to a lack of knowledge about how to fly one of the planes they rent, including such things as maximum flap speed, and power settings within the pattern.

But even more alarming was when I confronted this pilot recently about their behavior, and asked why they were doing this. The answer I got was: "I don't know, maybe a death wish." This is also somebody who admitted to me that they were depressed. This pilot also expressed amazement that they had ever received a certificate, and suggested that maybe someone should take it away. It almost seemed liked a cry for help.

So, my dilemma here is, do I report this to the FBO? Again, it's not something I witnessed personally. This pilot could deny having said or done any of these things. And in fact this pilot has a history of making wild statements, and then denying them by saying they just have a weird sense of humor.

My sense is that most FBOs have an idea of which pilots they should be concerned about, and I have a feeling that's true regarding this pilot, but unfortunately there may be little anyone can do unless there's an accident.

I'm truly conflicted about what to do, and hope maybe people here can offer some good advice, particularly if they've ever been confronted with such a situation. Thanks.
 
It's very definitely a disqualifying event, but I'll suggest that your first visit be not to the FBO nor the FAA but a local therapist. Even if YOU go, alone, you can get some guidance in how to handle this situation.

The best is to get this person the help they are asking for. That's not coming from the FAA, nor from the FBO. The victim should self-ground, but if that's not happening, get help first, THEN go to the FAA. If self-grounding happens, that's how it's supposed to work.

Depression is a life threatening disease of a major organ. Would you go to the FBO if someone were complaining of chest pains, first? If you believe suicide to be an immediate factor, call 911. If you believe it to be a risk, get the sufferer into the care of at least a primary care physician, but preferably a referral to a psychiatrist and/or therapist.
 
MAKG1 said:
It's very definitely a disqualifying event, but I'll suggest that your first visit be not to the FBO nor the FAA but a local therapist. Even if YOU go, alone, you can get some guidance in how to handle this situation.

The best is to get this person the help they are asking for. That's not coming from the FAA, nor from the FBO. The victim should self-ground, but if that's not happening, get help first, THEN go to the FAA. If self-grounding happens, that's how it's supposed to work.

Depression is a life threatening disease of a major organ. Would you go to the FBO if someone were complaining of chest pains, first? If you believe suicide to be an immediate factor, call 911. If you believe it to be a risk, get the sufferer into the care of at least a primary care physician, but preferably a referral to a psychiatrist and/or therapist.
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Thanks for your thoughtful response. I don't believe self-grounding is going to happen in this case, because I've confronted this pilot about my concerns, and have been dismissed. In the context of depression, I have mentioned the IMSAFE checklist and self-grounding to this pilot before, and was met with a non-response. I'm thinking they are not so much actively suicidal as they are just not giving a damn about whether they live or die, in any of their pursuits (driving, flying, bicycling, walking, whatever).

I do understand the seriousness of depression, but if someone is not willing to admit they have a problem, it's hard to know what to do.
 
That's the nature of the disease.

You can seek guidance from a professional yourself (BTDT -- I've seen this situation, and there are no "comfortable" solutions). You can try calling a suicide hotline, but I don't think they will be very helpful -- they are trained to talk to the sufferer, not so much a third party. Seeking some advice from an advice nurse in a mental health facility might be useful.

Flying badly is a symptom, not the problem, as you've realized. It may take an intervention to get this fixed. But do it with some professional advice or you can do more harm than good.
 
MAKG1 said:
That's the nature of the disease.

It may take an intervention to get this fixed. But do it with some professional advice or you can do more harm than good.
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Thanks, that's good advice. I'll see what I can do.
 
MAKG1 said:
It's very definitely a disqualifying event, but I'll suggest that your first visit be not to the FBO nor the FAA but a local therapist. Even if YOU go, alone, you can get some guidance in how to handle this situation.
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"Dr., I have this friend with a problem"...

Don't be surprised if the FAA jerks YOUR ticket as a result. :(

I don't see the problem with flying "close" to the 10,000ft limit. Close is not over, and not much reference to the surface is not none.

It sounds like maybe this is a case of a pilot with a poor skill set, not necessarily with an emotional problem, though of course I don't know him/her. Lot's of people joke about a death wish or similar stuff, it doesn't mean they are serious 90% of the time.

Just some thoughts.
 
bullwinkle said:
"Dr., I have this friend with a problem"...

Don't be surprised if the FAA jerks YOUR ticket as a result. :(
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Hell no.

This is not reportable because the OP is not being treated.

If I go out to lunch with my sister in law (who is a physician) and pick her up at the office, is that a "doctor visit" that I have to report to the FAA?

If I accompany a heart attack patient to the hospital, do I have to report that to the FAA?

A consultation like this is in the same boat. It is not treatment, therefore it is not reportable on Form 8500-8. Question 19 explicitly says to list visits for treatment, examination, … or evaluation. NOT for advice for handling another's problem.

Do NOT make up BS that will prevent someone from getting help they need to survive. That is utterly irresponsible.
 
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Sound's like this person needs medical attention. Suicidal tendencies are a real problem that many suffer from and are deadly for all involved if not addressed.
 
I don't think you have really provided enough info for an internet doctor to advise on.

There is a big difference between someone who has been feeling blue and gives a flip response when questioned about 'anti-authority' type behavior and someone who is genuinely suicidal.

You might be right, but I do not believe you are going to get any accurate advice using hypotheticals. If you are that concerned, perhaps find a way to delicately compare notes with others who know the pilot in question.
 
Unregistered said:
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I don't believe self-grounding is going to happen in this case, because I've confronted this pilot about my concerns, and have been dismissed.
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You can't help someone who doesn't want help. If you are that seriously concerned, and the person is refusing to acknowledge that s/he has a problem, and you think s/he is a threat to him/herself or others, then you are going to have to either take it to someone with the power to force the issue (could be the FSDO, could be a family member, could be someone else to whom s/he will listen, could be :dunno:), or just let nature run its course.

In that decision, let your conscience be your guide.
 
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bullwinkle said:
"Dr., I have this friend with a problem"...

Don't be surprised if the FAA jerks YOUR ticket as a result. :(
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Why would the FAA ever do that? I've seen the FAA get tough with pilots who reported bad maintenance on an airplane which they then flew anyway despites its apparently unairworthy condition, but not for reporting another pilot's dangerous actions when they weren't involved in those actions.
 
Concorde said:
I think he has a bad sense of humor and is playing you .
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Unlikely. Sure, it's possible, but when you run across a situation like this, it's pretty unmistakeable.

You can tell something is wrong almost before talking to the person involved at all.
 
Doesn't sound like he really has done anything that bad, also doesn't sound suicidal to me.

It does sound like you might be a little sensitive.

My recommendation, quit being such a delicate little flower and maybe worry about your own affairs.
 
Worrying about his friend's problems to keep from thinking of his own...
 
Guys, be thankful you've never had to deal with a person like that. Trust me, it is not AT ALL pleasant. There are no good responses, not even lack of response. The best outcomes **** people off. The worst involve dead bodies (thank God I've never seen one go that far).

I've had a handful of students with problems very similar to this. They suffer. Sometimes it goes away spontaneously. And sometimes it gets steadily worse and the outcome seems inevitable. You can't know, and if you do nothing and something happens, it becomes very hard to deal with, very much like not grabbing a kid who then runs into traffic. If you do something and it wasn't necessary, you risk ****ing people off. Sometimes, if you do something and it WAS necessary, you **** people off. I lost a buddy in grad school over that one. But she's still breathing.

Be aware that your ignorance can cause anguish for a lot of people. Try to be sensitive to that. The OP is not a "delicate little flower." He's paying attention. Stuff like this happens, more often than anyone would like. He might be wrong, but if he's not, you guys just did something terrible.
 
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MAKG1 said:
Hell no.

This is not reportable because the OP is not being treated.

If I go out to lunch with my sister in law (who is a physician) and pick her up at the office, is that a "doctor visit" that I have to report to the FAA?

If I accompany a heart attack patient to the hospital, do I have to report that to the FAA?

A consultation like this is in the same boat. It is not treatment, therefore it is not reportable on Form 8500-8. Question 19 explicitly says to list visits for treatment, examination, … or evaluation. NOT for advice for handling another's problem.

Do NOT make up BS that will prevent someone from getting help they need to survive. That is utterly irresponsible.
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You missed my point. The doctor could report the OP to the FAA on the grounds that he's suicidal and covering by discussing his "friend." Much dumber misunderstandings have happened with doctors and Feds.

I never suggested that he not seek help, only that going to a doctor to discuss a friend that the doc can't verify exists might not be a wise idea.
 
Ron Levy said:
Why would the FAA ever do that? I've seen the FAA get tough with pilots who reported bad maintenance on an airplane which they then flew anyway despites its apparently unairworthy condition, but not for reporting another pilot's dangerous actions when they weren't involved in those actions.
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The point is that if he talks to a doc about his friend, the doc might assume it's the equivalent of "Hey doc, I have this 'friend' with an embarrassing genital rash..."

Th doc might assume the OP is actually talking about himself and contact the authorities. I'm just saying to be careful in how you present other people's problems.
 
bullwinkle said:
You missed my point. The doctor could report the OP to the FAA on the grounds that he's suicidal and covering by discussing his "friend." Much dumber misunderstandings have happened with doctors and Feds.

I never suggested that he not seek help, only that going to a doctor to discuss a friend that the doc can't verify exists might not be a wise idea.
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I respectfully disagree.

Unless the OP goes to an AME and signs a release, such a thing is very much illegal and unethical. The professional involved need not know the OP is a pilot; the OP is not relevant. I'll guarantee you that the FAA isn't called for every problem that comes in off the street.

It may be possible to consult anonymously, for the truly paranoid. I did that once in grad school. Not intentionally; I walked in and said I had a friend I was worried about and asked what to do, and was just never asked my name.

Most doctors truly want to help, and will not become cops unless someone's life is in danger. If that's not the vibe, it's not the correct doc.

Keep in mind, you don't ask for treatment. That's a really bad idea unless you're a trained nurse (at least -- even then, it may be inadvisable). You ask for advice on how to get help for the affected person. And if someone came in and asked for treatment to give to another, virtually any doctor would change the subject. It's not kosher to write a prescription for a third party who hasn't been examined.
 
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Unregistered said:
Among the transgressions they have "confessed" to: twice flying close to the legal limit for sport pilots of 10,000 feet MSL in order to "get above the clouds," admittedly once with very little reference to the ground; cruising through a Class D airspace without having any clue until it was too late, and "maybe" violating another Class D airspace once because they were confused about the intended landing airport; using up all available runway to land, even though we're only talking a light sport plane, and the shortest runway lengths are 3,000 feet or so; and admitting to a lack of knowledge about how to fly one of the planes they rent, including such things as maximum flap speed, and power settings within the pattern.

But even more alarming was when I confronted this pilot recently about their behavior, and asked why they were doing this. The answer I got was: "I don't know, maybe a death wish." This is also somebody who admitted to me that they were depressed. This pilot also expressed amazement that they had ever received a certificate, and suggested that maybe someone should take it away. It almost seemed liked a cry for help.

So, my dilemma here is, do I report this to the FBO? Again, it's not something I witnessed personally. This pilot could deny having said or done any of these things. And in fact this pilot has a history of making wild statements, and then denying them by saying they just have a weird sense of humor..
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If it's not something you witnessed personally, it's gossip.
 
MAKG1 said:
I respectfully disagree.


Most doctors truly want to help, and will not become cops unless someone's life is in danger. If that's not the vibe, it's not the correct doc.
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Isn't that the whole point, that the OP believes somebody's life is in danger?

I used to be a cop. Believe me, doctors go to the authorities, especially if, as you said, they believe a life is at stake. If they think you are really talking about yourself when you reference a friend, the investigation turns to you.

I'm just telling the OP to tread lightly where misunderstandings are possible.
 
bullwinkle said:
It sounds like maybe this is a case of a pilot with a poor skill set, not necessarily with an emotional problem, though of course I don't know him/her. Lot's of people joke about a death wish or similar stuff, it doesn't mean they are serious 90% of the time.
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That's what the first post sounds like to me too, poor skills and maybe a lack of judgment. There are plenty of pilots out there who do the same kind of things, most just don't discuss it quite as freely as this guy does.
 
bullwinkle said:
The point is that if he talks to a doc about his friend, the doc might assume it's the equivalent of "Hey doc, I have this 'friend' with an embarrassing genital rash..."

Th doc might assume the OP is actually talking about himself and contact the authorities.
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A licensed physician who violates doctor-patient confidentiality like that based solely on that extremely weak assumption isn't going to keep his/her license to practice very long.
 
mondtster said:
That's what the first post sounds like to me too, poor skills and maybe a lack of judgment. There are plenty of pilots out there who do the same kind of things, most just don't discuss it quite as freely as this guy does.
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OP again. I, too, agree that there is definitely a problem with skills and judgement, but what concerns me most at the moment is that the poor judgment might be a result of the pilot's depression and not really caring anymore. And the fact that this WAS discussed so freely with me made me think it could have been a cry for help. Perhaps I am all wrong. Maybe this is just another bad pilot with a really sick sense of humor or some desperate need for attention. Either way, something is not quite right.
 
Unregistered said:
OP again. I, too, agree that there is definitely a problem with skills and judgement, but what concerns me most at the moment is that the poor judgment might be a result of the pilot's depression and not really caring anymore. And the fact that this WAS discussed so freely with me made me think it could have been a cry for help. Perhaps I am all wrong. Maybe this is just another bad pilot with a really sick sense of humor or some desperate need for attention. Either way, something is not quite right.
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You seem to be someone he can speak freely to. Maybe he's just being self deprecating, maybe it really is something else. If he is being open with you, you might as well just ask, "What's really going on? Do you think you are safe to fly?" and see what happens.
 
Unregistered said:
OP again. I, too, agree that there is definitely a problem with skills and judgement, but what concerns me most at the moment is that the poor judgment might be a result of the pilot's depression and not really caring anymore. And the fact that this WAS discussed so freely with me made me think it could have been a cry for help. Perhaps I am all wrong. Maybe this is just another bad pilot with a really sick sense of humor or some desperate need for attention. Either way, something is not quite right.
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So what? If he doesn't care, what business is it of yours? EVERYBODY DIES, why do you feel it's your duty to interfere?
 
Ron Levy said:
A licensed physician who violates doctor-patient confidentiality like that based solely on that extremely weak assumption isn't going to keep his/her license to practice very long.
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Doctors have a duty to notify authorities if they believe a patient is a danger to themselves or others. Confidentiality does not apply in that case. I saw it happen several times when I was a police officer.

I'm not saying it would happen in this case, just that you have to be very careful when you start talking to doctors about suicidal tendencies (the condition, not the band).
 
Matthew said:
You seem to be someone he can speak freely to. Maybe he's just being self deprecating, maybe it really is something else. If he is being open with you, you might as well just ask, "What's really going on? Do you think you are safe to fly?" and see what happens.
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That's probably the best initial approach. Have an honest conversation and make sure he understands that you are genuinely concerned. Definitely a better first step than involving doctors, the FAA, or anybody else.
 
I think I will just continue to talk to this pilot and try to find out more about what's going on.
 
bullwinkle said:
Doctors have a duty to notify authorities if they believe a patient is a danger to themselves or others. Confidentiality does not apply in that case. I saw it happen several times when I was a police officer.

I'm not saying it would happen in this case, just that you have to be very careful when you start talking to doctors about suicidal tendencies (the condition, not the band).
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I understand what you're saying, but this area of doctor-patient confidentiality is not lightly broken. If someone goes to a physician and says "I need help dealing with this guy I know..." and the physician then without confirming that this person is talking about him/herself rather than someone else reports to the authorities that the person who said that is a danger to him/herself or others, that physician is going to be in a world of trouble. I certainly wouldn't give that possibility a second thought before obtaining advice from a medical professional about how to proceed in such a situation.
 
I dunno, just strictly based on the OP's description of the problem, I don't feel there is quite enough to go on to get in someone's grill over the issue.

I've made off the cuff remarks similar to that in the past and seen people take them the wrong way. It's all about context.

"I'm having a crappy day. I think I'll go kill myself." No, not literally, don't get your panties in a wad. I'm no expert on the subject I'll freely admit, but in my limited experience, people intent on killing themselves may leave signs that they planned on doing it, but not typically in the form of outright statements to that effect.

On a related note. I came in to work one morning, and one of our employees had a very large, elaborate floral arrangement set up in her office window. I thought it was very odd but I didn't think any more of it and headed out of town to a remote office.

I got the call later on that afternoon that she had deliberately offed herself with a prescription drug overdose late the previous night in her apartment and there was a suicide note on the table. It all made sense then. She had set up her own memorium the night before. But there were no other signs. Nobody saw that coming. Nothing in her speech, or comments, or other actions indicated she was about to off herself. Maybe a trained psychiatrist might have picked up on something but the average Joe and Jane didn't.

We found out later (gee, thanks for telling us after the fact, if we knew this before maybe we could have been more alert for something that was wrong) that she had a history of mental illness and suicidal tendencies, and had just re-entered the work force.

Point being is you just don't really know what's going on inside another person's head.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Point being is you just don't really know what's going on inside another person's head.
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Ha. This is PoA where everyone is an expert in something that they have no real experience with.
 
Unregistered said:
OP again. I, too, agree that there is definitely a problem with skills and judgement, but what concerns me most at the moment is that the poor judgment might be a result of the pilot's depression and not really caring anymore. And the fact that this WAS discussed so freely with me made me think it could have been a cry for help. Perhaps I am all wrong. Maybe this is just another bad pilot with a really sick sense of humor or some desperate need for attention. Either way, something is not quite right.
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Just like when your airplane doesn't seem quite right, listen to the little voice in your head.

You will NEVER know with certainty unless it gets really bad.

You'll have to follow your own judgment. No one on this board has interacted with both of you, so we don't know what happened or what the context is.

I've seen situations almost exactly as you describe, so I think you're on to something. But I can't know for sure either.

You will find a lot of people who don't want to admit depression exists (as it's quite uncomfortable for those around), and it is widely misunderstood. It's not "the blues." It's much more like a feeling of crushing hopelessness, and some people deal with that by numbing. Sound familiar?
 
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