A PIC logging thread I haven't seen

L

Lindberg

Final Approach
Joined
Sep 25, 2013
Messages
7,758
Location
North Texas
Display Name
Display name:
Lindberg
Maybe this is a new one, but since there's nothing new under the sun...

I went for a flight with a friend in a plane I'm rated, but not endorsed for (complex, HP), and he let me fly part of the way. I understand that I cannot act as PIC of this flight, but I can log PIC for the time I was sole manipulator of the controls.

When we got into IMC and ATC started calling out altitude and heading changes, I asked him to engage the autopilot. For the rest of the flight he dialed in the altitudes and headings, I rode along with the autopilot on the controls just for the feel, and occasionally pushed some rudder when I saw the autopilot becoming slightly uncoordinated.

So here's my question. If I had been doing the dialing on the autopilot, could I have logged this time as well as sole manipulator? IOW, is the autopilot a "control" or does that just mean the yoke and the pedals?
 
Lindberg said:
but since there's nothing new under the sun...
Click to expand...

You got that right.

So here's my question. If I had been doing the dialing on the autopilot, could I have logged this time as well as sole manipulator? IOW, is the autopilot a "control" or does that just mean the yoke and the pedals?
Click to expand...

Yes you could have and yes the autopilot is a "control".
 
...if you couldn't log PIC with the autopilot on an airline captain would get to log about 30 minutes of each flight. :)
 
I did a flight with a friend through the hudsonn river to ct and back from nj be let me feel the plane for an.1 .2 lol I thought I could but never did log it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
kenjr said:
...if you couldn't log PIC with the autopilot on an airline captain would get to log about 30 minutes of each flight. :)
Click to expand...

No question you can log it if you are "acting as PIC," but I wasn't.
 
Lindberg said:
No question you can log it if you are "acting as PIC," but I wasn't.
Click to expand...
The poster could have typed "SIC" and it would have been the same answer. In fact you could be the SIC flying, and on takeoff say as part of your callouts "gear up" without deducting the second that the non-flying PIC is manipulating the gear lever. Generally the flying pilot is the flying pilot for the whole leg regards of who actually touched some button or control.

This might not apply if you had a relief crew or some situation where you had to change roles but generally speaking...
 
Lindberg said:
No question you can log it if you are "acting as PIC," but I wasn't.
Click to expand...
Whether or not you were acting as PIC is irrelevant if you were the sole manipulator of the controls (and as noted above, turning the knobs on the autopilot counts as "manipulating"). The big question is whether or not you were "rated", and "rated" means only category, class, and (if applicable) type ratings -- not 61.31 ATE's like complex/TW/HP/high altitude, not flight review, not medical, not [fill in the blank with any other "act as PIC" requirement].

BTW, one question never to my knowledge asked or answered is whether a 61.55 SIC type rating counts as "rated" for this purpose in an aircraft requiring a type rating. My guess is they'd say "no" if asked, that it has to be a PIC type rating to log PIC time, but so far, nobody's asked.
 
Everskyward said:
The poster could have typed "SIC" and it would have been the same answer. In fact you could be the SIC flying, and on takeoff say as part of your callouts "gear up" without deducting the second that the non-flying PIC is manipulating the gear lever. Generally the flying pilot is the flying pilot for the whole leg regards of who actually touched some button or control.

This might not apply if you had a relief crew or some situation where you had to change roles but generally speaking...
Click to expand...
I don't see any language in 61.51 which suggests that someone else raising the gear or extending the flaps takes away from being "sole manipulator" of the controls for this purpose. The FAA's position as I discern it is that for logging PIC time under 61.51(3)(1)(i), it's who's got "hands on stick and throttle", directly or indirectly via the autopilot.
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't see any language in 61.51 which suggests that someone else raising the gear or extending the flaps takes away from being "sole manipulator" of the controls for this purpose. The FAA's position as I discern it is that for logging PIC time under 61.51(3)(1)(i), it's who's got "hands on stick and throttle", directly or indirectly via the autopilot.
Click to expand...
Isn't that what I wrote minus the FAR citation?
 
Ron Levy said:
BTW, one question never to my knowledge asked or answered is whether a 61.55 SIC type rating counts as "rated" for this purpose in an aircraft requiring a type rating. My guess is they'd say "no" if asked, that it has to be a PIC type rating to log PIC time, but so far, nobody's asked.
Click to expand...

An SIC type looks just like a regular type except it has the following listed under "XIII Limitations" on the certificate, "<type> SIC PRIVILEGES ONLY".

That'd certainly keep me from logging any PIC! :)
 
Everskyward said:
Isn't that what I wrote minus the FAR citation?
Click to expand...
I don't think so. You said, "Generally the flying pilot is the flying pilot for the whole leg regards of who actually touched some button or control," and the issue is not who is the "flying pilot", but unless you have a definition of the term "flying pilot" which says "the sole manipulator of the controls", the issue is in fact very specifically who was touching the flight controls.
 
Last edited:
kayoh190 said:
An SIC type looks just like a regular type except it has the following listed under "XIII Limitations" on the certificate, "<type> SIC PRIVILEGES ONLY".

That'd certainly keep me from logging any PIC! :)
Click to expand...
I'd think so, too, and I would never advise someone to do otherwise.
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't think so. You said, "Generally the flying pilot is the flying pilot for the whole leg regards of who actually touched some button or control," and the issue is not who is the "flying pilot", but unless you have a definition of the term "flying pilot" which says "the sole manipulator of the controls", the issue is in fact very specifically who was touching the flight controls.
Click to expand...


Not really, because if you give the the other pilot the controls, for example when you are doing the approach briefing, you do not deduct that from your time. You don't end up with 3.0 PIC and .1 SIC or whatever. To my knowledge no one gets that specific.
 
Ron Levy said:
BTW, one question never to my knowledge asked or answered is whether a 61.55 SIC type rating counts as "rated" for this purpose in an aircraft requiring a type rating. My guess is they'd say "no" if asked, that it has to be a PIC type rating to log PIC time, but so far, nobody's asked.
Click to expand...

Here you are Ron:
(Sorry, I don't know how to upload the PDF file from my iPad and I don't have access to my computer right now)

U.S. Department of Transportation
Federal Aviation Administration
OCT 22 2013

Jeff Morgan
6955 Karen Street Burnaby, BC V5B 2V5 Canada

Office of the Chief Counsel
800 Independence Ave., S.W. Washington, D.C. 20591

Dear Mr. Morgan:
This letter responds to your request for a legal interpretation that was emailed to my office on September 4,2013. Specifically, you have asked whether a pilot who holds a type rating limited to SIC privileges may log time as pilot in command (PIC) under § 61.51(e)(1)(i). We previously answered this question in a legal interpretation to Glenn Counsil issued on April 13,2012.

Section 61.51(e)(l)(i) permits a pilot to log PIC time for flight time as "the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated." We have consistently stated that the term "rated," as used in § 61.51(e) refers to the pilot holding the appropriate aircraft ratings (category, class, and type, if a type rating is required) on his or her pilot certificate. See Legal Interpretation to John Speranza (Dec. 4,2009); Legal Interpretation to Jason E. Herman (May 21,2009); Legal Interpretation to James R. Knight II (June 3, 1999). We stated in the Counsil Interpretation that, to log PIC time under § 61.51 (e)( 1)(i), a pilot must hold a type rating that is not subject to a "SIC Privileges Only" limitation.' Accordingly, in your scenario, a pilot who holds a type rating limited to SIC privileges for the S-61 may not log time as PIC under § 61.51 (e)(1)(i). We have attached the Counsil Interpretation for your consideration.
 
Last edited:
Ron Levy said:
BTW, one question never to my knowledge asked or answered is whether a 61.55 SIC type rating counts as "rated" for this purpose in an aircraft requiring a type rating. My guess is they'd say "no" if asked, that it has to be a PIC type rating to log PIC time, but so far, nobody's asked.
Click to expand...
It's been answered. No.

http://goo.gl/nbU0QS link ghogue couldn't do.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top