A&P training requirements question

cleared4theoption

cleared4theoption

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Jeremy
So, as I understand it, you need 2000 hours of training plus pass the tests for your A&P. Now, the program at the school I start at in August is set up to meet the 2000 hours, and prep you for the test. They are starting a paid internship program where the top students get to go intern (with pay) on the weekend. My question is, can the time working through the internship count towards the 2000 hours? Potentially making it possible to take the tests early?
 
Depends on how the wrote their training plan. Approved schools have FAA approved curriculums, they cannot deviate without approval.

My money is on no
 
It's possible that you could meet the 2000 hour requirement early, but you also have to complete all the training in all the areas, and I doubt you'd do that ahead of the schedule in their training syllabus. So, the only way to get a good answer on this is to ask the school.
 
cleared4theoption said:
So, as I understand it, you need 2000 hours of training plus pass the tests for your A&P. Now, the program at the school I start at in August is set up to meet the 2000 hours, and prep you for the test. They are starting a paid internship program where the top students get to go intern (with pay) on the weekend. My question is, can the time working through the internship count towards the 2000 hours? Potentially making it possible to take the tests early?
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Is your school under a 14 CFR Part 147 ?

If so you need to speak to the school and ask them.
 
Skylane81E said:
Depends on how the wrote their training plan. Approved schools have FAA approved curriculums, they cannot deviate without approval.

My money is on no
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You are correct. If the school deviates from their written FAA Approved Curriculum they can be shut down. I've seen it happen first hand. :(
 
cleared4theoption said:
So, as I understand it, you need 2000 hours of training plus pass the tests for your A&P. Now, the program at the school I start at in August is set up to meet the 2000 hours, and prep you for the test. They are starting a paid internship program where the top students get to go intern (with pay) on the weekend. My question is, can the time working through the internship count towards the 2000 hours? Potentially making it possible to take the tests early?
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I'm going to say no also. Talk directly with the FISDO overseeing the school.
 
Ron Levy said:
It's possible that you could meet the 2000 hour requirement early, but you also have to complete all the training in all the areas, and I doubt you'd do that ahead of the schedule in their training syllabus. So, the only way to get a good answer on this is to ask the school.
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No, you ask the inspector at FSDO he's the one going to sign you off to take the test.
 
Tom-D said:
No, you ask the inspector at FSDO he's the one going to sign you off to take the test.
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Doesn't the school issue a certificate certifying completion of the course and eligibility to test? Mine did. The FSDO's only involvement is monitoring the school and ensuring it is following its approved syllabus and documenting attendance.
 
Witmo said:
Doesn't the school issue a certificate certifying completion of the course and eligibility to test? Mine did. The FSDO's only involvement is monitoring the school and ensuring it is following its approved syllabus and documenting attendance.
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Do you believe they will do that before completion of the course?
 
FAR 65.77, my bold...

Each applicant for a mechanic certificate or rating must present either an appropriate graduation certificate or certificate of completion from a certificated aviation maintenance technician school or documentary evidence, satisfactory to the Administrator, of-

(a) At least 18 months of practical experience with the procedures, practices, materials, tools, machine tools, and equipment generally used in constructing, maintaining, or altering airframes, or powerplants appropriate to the rating sought; or

(b) At least 30 months of practical experience concurrently performing the duties appropriate to both the airframe and powerplant ratings.
 
Skylane81E said:
FAR 65.77,
Each applicant for a mechanic certificate or rating must present either an appropriate graduation certificate or certificate of completion from a certificated aviation maintenance technician school or documentary evidence, satisfactory to the Administrator, of-

(a) At least 18 months of practical experience with the procedures, practices, materials, tools, machine tools, and equipment generally used in constructing, maintaining, or altering airframes, or powerplants appropriate to the rating sought; or

(b) At least 30 months of practical experience concurrently performing the duties appropriate to both the airframe and powerplant ratings.
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And who will they show that to.
 
Or just find an A&P willing to sign you off for the 30 months of practical experience time and take it to the FSDO, Ive seen that happen before when the applicant had very little practical experience and the next thing I knew he had his A&P ticket.
 
Tom-D said:
No, you ask the inspector at FSDO he's the one going to sign you off to take the test.
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That's not how it works under Part 147. You complete all the training, and the school issues you a graduation certificate. Then you take the test, unless the school has examination authority, in which case you take the graduation certificate with the application to the FSDO and they just issue you the mechanic certificate. Either way, you do not get your A&P until you complete the school's training course, no matter how many hours you have.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's not how it works under Part 147. You complete all the training, and the school issues you a graduation certificate. Then you take the test, unless the school has examination authority, in which case you take the graduation certificate with the application to the FSDO and they just issue you the mechanic certificate. Either way, you do not get your A&P until you complete the school's training course, no matter how many hours you have.
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Isn't this person trying to use the apprentice time to take the test? that would take them out of the 147 system.

to answer the OP's question, you would need to ask the FSDO inspector if they would buy it.

I doubt if the school would do it.
 
Ron Levy said:
In 14 CFR Part 147.
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FAR 65.77,
Each applicant for a mechanic certificate or rating must present either an appropriate graduation certificate or certificate of completion from a certificated aviation maintenance technician school or documentary evidence, satisfactory to the Administrator, of-
I have seen sailors use their DD214 showing the proof of training in one field, for 1 portion of the requirement, and a school certificate for the other part.

I don't see why this student can't use both methods too.

As I have said before the inspector at FSDO might just buy it. It is up to them, not us.
 
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I seem to have a better understanding of the regs now. The apprentice time wouldn't count towards the 147 training and vice versa...If I need 30 months of apprentice time, I would most likely finish the school program first, so it wouldn't get me there any faster.
 
cleared4theoption said:
I seem to have a better understanding of the regs now. The apprentice time wouldn't count towards the 147 training and vice versa...If I need 30 months of apprentice time, I would most likely finish the school program first, so it wouldn't get me there any faster.
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I wouldn't make that decision based upon what I read here.

ASK FSDO, !!!!!!!! it's only a phone call away.

It is a matter of how the inspector interprets the reg. WE- THEY all have opinions. they just might give you the slip to take the test.
 
Tom-D said:
I wouldn't make that decision based upon what I read here.

ASK FSDO, !!!!!!!! it's only a phone call away.

It is a matter of how the inspector interprets the reg. WE- THEY all have opinions. they just might give you the slip to take the test.
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I will definately confirm with FSDO...and I'm going to try for the internship regardless of the answer...the foot in the door and the knowledge and experience gained would be invaluable:D
 
Tom-D said:
And who will they show that to.
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The certificate of completion is shown to the DME who gives the practical test(s) and to the test proctor for the knowledge test(s).

The proof of practical experience has to be given to the FSDO who will then decide on whether or not it's adequate and issue the appropriate approval to hand to a DME or testing facility.

I can't see a FSDO mixing and matching practical experience and Part 147 training to approve testing but I suppose anything's possible with a FSDO. Heck, our FSDO thinks it's Fort Knox or a vital National Security agency based on the difficulty in just getting through the front door to talk to someone. I wouldn't be surprised by anything they come up with.
 
Tom-D said:
FAR 65.77,
Each applicant for a mechanic certificate or rating must present either an appropriate graduation certificate or certificate of completion from a certificated aviation maintenance technician school or documentary evidence, satisfactory to the Administrator, of-
I have seen sailors use their DD214 showing the proof of training in one field, for 1 portion of the requirement, and a school certificate for the other part.

I don't see why this student can't use both methods too.

As I have said before the inspector at FSDO might just buy it. It is up to them, not us.
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Sure you can use practical experience for say, the Airframe portion and school training for Powerplant or vice versa. They are separate certificates/ratings. The problem is trying to use a combination of both for one certificate which I don't believe would be allowed.
 
Witmo said:
The certificate of completion is shown to the DME who gives the practical test(s) and to the test proctor for the knowledge test(s).

The proof of practical experience has to be given to the FSDO who will then decide on whether or not it's adequate and issue the appropriate approval to hand to a DME or testing facility.

I can't see a FSDO mixing and matching practical experience and Part 147 training to approve testing but I suppose anything's possible with a FSDO. Heck, our FSDO thinks it's Fort Knox or a vital National Security agency based on the difficulty in just getting through the front door to talk to someone. I wouldn't be surprised by anything they come up with.
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That's where I am with this, why shoot yourself down before you try.
 
cleared4theoption said:
I seem to have a better understanding of the regs now. The apprentice time wouldn't count towards the 147 training and vice versa...If I need 30 months of apprentice time, I would most likely finish the school program first, so it wouldn't get me there any faster.
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Tom is confusing you by mixing criteria, and I suggest you ignore his posts on this thread.

You do not need 30 months of apprentice time if you complete the 147 program. OTOH, if you have not completed the 147 program, just having 2000 hours in your records doesn't get you the certificate. What the apprentice time gets you is useful experience and pay, not a faster route to the ticket.

Got it?
 
Ron Levy said:
Tom is confusing you by mixing criteria, and I suggest you ignore his posts on this thread.

You do not need 30 months of apprentice time if you complete the 147 program. OTOH, if you have not completed the 147 program, just having 2000 hours in your records doesn't get you the certificate. What the apprentice time gets you is useful experience and pay, not a faster route to the ticket.

Got it?
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What's confusing about asking FSDO?
 
RotorAndWing said:
http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=34EB500C9E377AF1862577290045480A
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Good link,,

5-1134 ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS. Applicants for a mechanic certificate must meet the requirements of part 65 subparts A and D.

Who makes the decision of whether they do or don't? Ron? or FSDO's ASI?

No body here knows what the OP's data package contains or what value the ASI will place on the hours of apprenticeship. yet Ron suggests that the OP ignore my suggestion to take his info to FSDO and see what the real decision maker thinks about if the OP can take the general, or even one of the major portions of the test.

that in my opinion is bad advice, because it cheats the OP out of the opportunity to take 1 or2 parts of the test, getting them out of the way so they can concentrate on the final portion.
I was an instructor in the military training program for over 12 years and have sent well over 100 sailors to see the ASI to get the slip. some made it, some didn't, but they all tried, the ones that did not get the slip came back studied and tried again.

telling the OP not to go to the FSDO and get the correct answers just isn't right.
 
Tom-D said:
Good link,,

5-1134 ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS. Applicants for a mechanic certificate must meet the requirements of part 65 subparts A and D.

Who makes the decision of whether they do or don't? Ron? or FSDO's ASI?

No body here knows what the OP's data package contains or what value the ASI will place on the hours of apprenticeship. yet Ron suggests that the OP ignore my suggestion to take his info to FSDO and see what the real decision maker thinks about if the OP can take the general, or even one of the major portions of the test.

that in my opinion is bad advice, because it cheats the OP out of the opportunity to take 1 or2 parts of the test, getting them out of the way so they can concentrate on the final portion.
I was an instructor in the military training program for over 12 years and have sent well over 100 sailors to see the ASI to get the slip. some made it, some didn't, but they all tried, the ones that did not get the slip came back studied and tried again.

telling the OP not to go to the FSDO and get the correct answers just isn't right.
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The hours of apprenticeship wont be nearly enough. See http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/lou/local_more/media/CE17-050-F1_A&P.pdf: The FAA considers a 40 hour work week for the 18 months/30 months, so by experience would be 160 hours per month or 2,880/4,800 hours for one or both.

I'd also be a bit wary of relying on the ASI if they tell you that you can mix--if another ASI is working by the time you finished, no guarantee they will let it go.
 
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