A models

[judypilot]

The quote that came up when I logged on this morning was "Never fly the A model of anything." I have to respectfully disagree. My airplane is an A model (C182A). I have a Toyota T100 from the first year they made them. They are both outstanding vehicles. My Cessna is one of the sweetest-flying airplanes I've ever had the privilege to control. I will never own another airplane. To me (and for my mix of missions, everything from flying all the way across this great country to landing on short strips in the mountains), it's the perfect airplane. My T100 has 158,000 of hard miles--I'm a geologist, and you wouldn't believe where I've taken it and how hard its frame, engine, and undercarriage have been abused--and it still runs like almost new, with a bare minimum of rattles and a good-looking and -running engine. Paint's a little milky after being parked in the Arizona sun for 8 years and spending lots of field hours in the sun, too, but that's about the only flaw.

So what's your experience with A models?

Judy

 

[Ken Ibold]

My S-2A is (so far) a great airplane. But I've only had it three months, so we'll see how it works in the long run.

My Honda Pilot (2nd year production) is a great car, but my 2nd year production Durango was the worst piece of crap I've ever owned, even worse than the Fiat I had in college -- and that's saying a LOT

 

[RotaryWingBob]

My Archer is a 1976, the first year Piper produced the 180 hp with a tapered wing.

My car is a 2000 Boxster S, the first year Porsche produced the S.

I have no complaints with either.

 

[Anthony]

but my 2nd year production Durango was the worst piece of crap I've ever owned, even worse than the Fiat I had in college -- and that's saying a LOT

OMG. Worse than a Fiat? (Fix it again Tony)

 

[Ken Ibold]

OMG. Worse than a Fiat? (Fix it again Tony)

4 years, 51,000 miles with oil changes every 3,000 miles. In the shop (two different dealers) for unscheduled repairs 21 times, including multiple repairs of the same items. Never, not a single day in its life, was there NOT something broken on it. The Fiat, on the other hand, would work fine for a couple of months, and then, oh, the brakes would fail when you were going 45 mph and the traffic signal ahead turned red.

 

[tonycondon]

the question is, which kind of maintenance program would you prefer?

 

[fgcason]

My dad had a van of some kind that was a first generation model that would fall apart just sitting there in the drive way on it's own.
87 mustang with quite a few design changes from the previous model. Even the aftermarket parts are junk. I learned my lesson.
Myself and people I know have had first generation stuff as well as later models and it's a coin toss. Some perfect, others self destruct.

I think for mechanical stuff it's more random chance than anything else for the most part. Part of it is design issues. Part is the transition from design/prototype to mass production. Part of it is the assembly line drone worker putting the same exact part on the same exact way with the same exact wrench using the same exact bolts standing in the same exact spot looking at the same exact wall across from him for the last 237,643 vehicles all exactly the same.
OTOH computer software is a junkpile of countless subroutines all interacting with each other. Computer hardware rate of change is so high that I'm surprised anything works. You just know something isn't right when the patches hit the market before they get copy #1 in the box at the factory. IMNSHO, computers is where you avoid 1st generation stuff like the plague unless you like playing russian roulette with a machine gun.

 

[Dean]

I have two "A" models in the driveway and so far only one problem. I have a 2004 Nissan Titan and it had brake problems in the first 6000 miles. Nissan replaced the rotors, calipurs and pads and so far so good and its at 38,000 miles. The other A model is a 2000 Lincoln LS and it has been outstanding, it as 68,000 miles and I have had no problem with it what so ever.

 

[jkaduk]

Having worked for electronic manufacturers for most of my life I would never buy rev A of anything. At least not new.
Did you buy your C182A new? Or did the first few owners work out the bugs? Also keep in mind that your 182 was not a clean sheet design. It is a tweak of a well proven design. Same thing with Bob's Archer.

 

[Pilawt]

In the Cessna model number system, the 'A' model is the second version (e.g., 182, 182A, 182B, ...). Same for Beech (35, A35, B35, ...).

-- Pilawt

 

[alaskaflyer]

In the Cessna model number system, the 'A' model is the second version (e.g., 182, 182A, 182B, ...). Same for Beech (35, A35, B35, ...).

-- Pilawt

Ah, you beat me to that! However, I am buying a "B" model, as it is better than the aforementioned "A"

There are regular dogfights on the 170 association forum about this exact topic. Don't ever tell an "A" model owner theirs isn't the best!

The Cessna 172E might have been the best 172 ever built, by the way, better than A, B, C, D, F, G, etc models

 

[tonycondon]

but the 170B is better than an A! hasnt it got metal wings and a bigger engine or something?

 

[alaskaflyer]

but the 170B is better than an A! hasnt it got metal wings and a bigger engine or something?

Oh boy...!

Actually both have metal wings. Engine is identical, though "mine" (haven't closed yet) has a different one installed by STC.

Some updates you want. For example, the only difference in the A and B model on 170's is improved cabin heat design, fowler flaps instead of simple hinged ones, and landing gear that is just a bit stiffer (and that was later in the B production.) Also, a bit more wing dihedral. So if you were looking at a nice A, and a nice B, why wouldn't you go with the B?

OTOH, I hate electric flaps for small planes. If I bought a 172 for the kind of flying I do I would buy the best model from the early sixties I could find. Many new high wing aircraft still have manual flaps - not to save money,but to save weight and also because they are more responsive (for lack of a better way to put it.)

 

[tonycondon]

hmmm i couldve sworn there was a difference, apparently i was suckered in by too many 170B owners

 

[alaskaflyer]

hmmm i couldve sworn there was a difference, apparently i was suckered in by too many 170B owners

Like Pilawt said above, the A model was the second in production. The straight 170 made for one year had fabric wings, v wing struts and a rather interesting fuel tank arrangement, but the same engine as the rest, the good 'ole C-145/O-300 6 banger.

 

[tonycondon]

aha, that is probably the source of my confusion. its nice to know where some of my confusion is coming from. weird, no quick reply on the thread.

 

[Pilawt]

the only difference in the A and B model on 170's is improved cabin heat design, fowler flaps instead of simple hinged ones, and landing gear that is just a bit stiffer (and that was later in the B production.) Also, a bit more wing dihedral.

Didja know there was a prototype 170C flying and ready to go into production in '55?

I've heard the 170A was a nice flying airplane. They always looked a bit unusual to me, though ... the gear looked "sprung" and the wings looked like they were sagging.

-- Pilawt

 

[tonycondon]

yea the 170C was ready to go, then a couple guys put a wheel up front and a legend was born right?

 

[Pilawt]

yea the 170C was ready to go, then a couple guys put a wheel up front and a legend was born right?

Yeah, it was just a 'B' with the squared tail surfaces for better control response with the big flaps down. Then they went and messed with the landing gear ("Are you crazy?! A lovely 170 with a big ol' wheel hanging from the nose?? That'll never sell...")

-- Pilawt

 

[mgkdrgn]

There ARE exceptions to every rule.

I drive a 1989 Ford ProbeGT (actually a re-engineered Mazda MX6). Its the first year they were out, and they didn't make them like that (4 cyl turbo) all that long. I am the orig and only owner.

I've put 217K+ miles on it, still on the orig engine, orig clutch, and still outruns, out handles and out brakes 90% of what is on the road. Just the smallest bit of rust now showing up. Trying to decide if I should spend the $ to have a new clutch installed and have it repainted.

The quote that came up when I logged on this morning was "Never fly the A model of anything." I have to respectfully disagree. My airplane is an A model (C182A). I have a Toyota T100 from the first year they made them. They are both outstanding vehicles. My Cessna is one of the sweetest-flying airplanes I've ever had the privilege to control. I will never own another airplane. To me (and for my mix of missions, everything from flying all the way across this great country to landing on short strips in the mountains), it's the perfect airplane. My T100 has 158,000 of hard miles--I'm a geologist, and you wouldn't believe where I've taken it and how hard its frame, engine, and undercarriage have been abused--and it still runs like almost new, with a bare minimum of rattles and a good-looking and -running engine. Paint's a little milky after being parked in the Arizona sun for 8 years and spending lots of field hours in the sun, too, but that's about the only flaw.

So what's your experience with A models?

Judy

 

[tom.]

I drive a 1989 Ford ProbeGT (actually a re-engineered Mazda MX6). Its the first year they were out, and they didn't make them like that (4 cyl turbo) all that long. I am the orig and only owner.
quote]

I occasionally visit the Mazda (Flat Rock, MI) plant for work. There is a line of brand new cars in the hallway, one of everything they ever built at the plant back to the early 80s. They have maybe 3 miles on them. It's a sight to behold.

 

[tom.]

The quote that came up when I logged on this morning was "Never fly the A model of anything." I have to respectfully disagree. My airplane is an A model (C182A). I have a Toyota T100 from the first year they made them. They are both outstanding vehicles. My Cessna is one of the sweetest-flying airplanes I've ever had the privilege to control. I will never own another airplane. To me (and for my mix of missions, everything from flying all the way across this great country to landing on short strips in the mountains), it's the perfect airplane. My T100 has 158,000 of hard miles--I'm a geologist, and you wouldn't believe where I've taken it and how hard its frame, engine, and undercarriage have been abused--and it still runs like almost new, with a bare minimum of rattles and a good-looking and -running engine. Paint's a little milky after being parked in the Arizona sun for 8 years and spending lots of field hours in the sun, too, but that's about the only flaw.

So what's your experience with A models?

Judy

We love our 1958 172-A. My 16-year old soloed it last year, and the 15-year old will be next, in about 8 months. Sometimes I even get the keys

 

[SkykingC310]

The concept of the Cessna 310 came about in the very early 1950's. Two prototypes flew in 1953. Production began in 1954 with the Cessna 310. It wasn't until 1957 that the 310A was developed. In total, 160 'A' models were produced. 80 of those were ordered by the USAF and labeled the L-27A. These 310's had some unique qualities that set them apart from the rest. Although the same engines, slight variations in the airframe allowed a 400' higher ceiling, single engine ceiling was up 500', you could go 12 mph faster, and they weighed 200 pounds heavier. These also came with 1/4" plexiglass windows and windshield. All that is to say, if you have a 310A, you have a rather unique bird.

 

[ScottM]

The quote that came up when I logged on this morning was "Never fly the A model of anything." I have to respectfully disagree. My airplane is an A model (C182A). I have a Toyota T100 from the first year they made them. They are both outstanding vehicles. My Cessna is one of the sweetest-flying airplanes I've ever had the privilege to control. I will never own another airplane. To me (and for my mix of missions, everything from flying all the way across this great country to landing on short strips in the mountains), it's the perfect airplane. My T100 has 158,000 of hard miles--I'm a geologist, and you wouldn't believe where I've taken it and how hard its frame, engine, and undercarriage have been abused--and it still runs like almost new, with a bare minimum of rattles and a good-looking and -running engine. Paint's a little milky after being parked in the Arizona sun for 8 years and spending lots of field hours in the sun, too, but that's about the only flaw.

So what's your experience with A models?

Judy

In airplanes is the 'A' model actually the second run? That the C182 was first in 1955 then followed by the C182A in 1957 would mean that you really are not flying the first generation aircraft of that varient but the second one with the bugs worked out.

 

[judypilot]

In the Cessna model number system, the 'A' model is the second version (e.g., 182, 182A, 182B, ...). Same for Beech (35, A35, B35, ...).

-- Pilawt

Good point, Pilawt, and my airplane is actually the third year the A models were made.

Judy

 

[gkainz]

There's a similar axiom in software - "Never install version 1.0 of anything" which I believe can be extended to "Never install version X.0 of anything; always wait until at least X.1"

 

[ScottM]

There's a similar axiom in software - "Never install version 1.0 of anything" which I believe can be extended to "Never install version X.0 of anything; always wait until at least X.1"

Definetly never install 0.0.x of anything onto a computer that you have usefull info on and want to keep.

 

[gkainz]

Definetly never install 0.0.x of anything onto a computer that you have usefull info on and want to keep.

Having done occasional Alpha and Beta testing, I concur. Dedicated machine in a seperate corner of the office!

 

[RotaryWingBob]

There's a similar axiom in software - "Never install version 1.0 of anything" which I believe can be extended to "Never install version X.0 of anything; always wait until at least X.1"

I'd take that one step further -- never install an even-numbered minor version -- they always fix the bugs in the odd numbered one. For example, count on version 3.2 to have bugs and 3.3 (or 3.21) to fix them

 

[Len Lanetti]

What I find funny about the quote is that the A model is usually the second iteration of the original.

For example, there was a Grumman AA1 before there was an AA1A, also an AA5 before there was an AA5A (interesting side note that the AA5B came out before the AA5A)...a Cessna 172 before a 172A...a Mooney M20 before an M20A.

Len

 

[gkainz]

What I find funny about the quote is that the A model is usually the second iteration of the original.

I've thought about that ... I wonder if the "A" model is the second iteration because when you're designing something, you're focused on that design. Revisions and model changes don't come into the thought process? Well, except software, where the most common phrase is "that will be in the next release"...

 

[ScottM]

I've thought about that ... I wonder if the "A" model is the second iteration because when you're designing something, you're focused on that design. Revisions and model changes don't come into the thought process? Well, except software, where the most common phrase is "that will be in the next release"...

In my field the first version is called 'O' for original then it is follwed by A, B, C, etc.