A little ice

Dave Siciliano

Dave Siciliano

Final Approach
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Feb 27, 2005
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Dave Siciliano
Went mostly around a huge convective system on the way to Wisconsin last Thursday, but still got some ice at FL190 and some light to moderate chop for a short time. We were on the east side going north and out of anything but green on NEXRAD, but still picked this up. About -12C at that altitude. Almost the entire trip was IMC. Went on instruments shortly after takeoff from Addison and went visual at about 450 feet on the ILS into Rockford.

Best,

Dave
 

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I always enjoy ice pictures. Although I typically don't get around to taking them since I'm too busy dealing with it to get the camera out.

Sounds like a fun flight.
 
I can enjoy them when they're someone ELSE'S ice pictures! :hairraise: Fortunately, I don't have too many of my own.
 
My co pilot was taking the pics. As you said, I was busy, but nice to see all systems were working properly. Small right turn would have gotten us out if necessary.

Best,

Dave
 
It looked like you had a helper taking pictures. That's usually when I'd get the good ones.

How much speed loss did you see for that level of ice?
 
Dave Siciliano said:
My co pilot was taking the pics. As you said, I was busy, but nice to see all systems were working properly. Small right turn would have gotten us out if necessary.

Best,

Dave
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Even in a King Air you want to get out if possible. The ice that slings from the prop can hit the nose section and make dents. Many, maybe yours, have ice plates installed.

Usually they are installed after the damage has been done, to hide the dents!
 
No speed loss noticeable at that point. We had just cycled boots. The windscreen heat was on, but not defrost. We turned that up and it cleared the windscreen. No ice shields on this plane. Had them on the baron. Haven't gotten into a position where we heard ice slinging from the props. We were just feeling our way east of the convective system and turned a bit more right after a bit which ended accumulation. Still a bit bumpy for awhile, but not long.

Best,

Dave
 
That isn't much, that is a fun amount. Some good weather out there yesterday.
 
That's exactly what we thought. Nice to see everything work correctly, no big deal.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Went mostly around a huge convective system on the way to Wisconsin last Thursday, but still got some ice at FL190 and some light to moderate chop for a short time. We were on the east side going north and out of anything but green on NEXRAD, but still picked this up. About -12C at that altitude. Almost the entire trip was IMC. Went on instruments shortly after takeoff from Addison and went visual at about 450 feet on the ILS into Rockford.

Best,

Dave
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Please review the NASA video on tail plane ice/stall. They cover detection, onset and recovery.
No autopilot in icing conditions is a big time recommendation
 
78bonanza said:
Please review the NASA video on tail plane ice/stall. They cover detection, onset and recovery.
No autopilot in icing conditions is a big time recommendation
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In some aircraft the requirement is a/p off in moderate or greater icing conditions. It varies. I would think a/p off in any icing is recommended for a light single. I'm sure Dave knows the recommended procedures in his king air.
 
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I've shown that vid several times. Periodic control movements with AP on to see if controls are free. I wasn't making an approach where small movements were critical. I've been in mod ice where AP does come off and on any approach/departure where control movements may be affected. Keeping airspeed up is also critical. I was way above minimum ice accumulation speed. It's not something to be paranoid of in a K-ice plane unless something isn't working properly; certainly is something to respect and monitor.

Best,

Dave
 
The moral of the story is, of course, we all need to fly King Airs! ;)
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I've shown that vid several times. Periodic control movements with AP on to see if controls are free. I wasn't making an approach where small movements were critical. I've been in mod ice where AP does come off and on any approach/departure where control movements may be affected. Keeping airspeed up is also critical. I was way above minimum ice accumulation speed. It's not something to be paranoid of in a K-ice plane unless something isn't working properly; certainly is something to respect and monitor.

Best,

Dave
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I'm confused as to what you mean by "control movements" and " Controls are free". Are you talking about control surfaces becoming jammed because of ice? Just to clarify, the autopilot needs to come off in bad icing because as the tailplane accumulates ice and loses lift, the autopilot will continue to try and maintain pitch attitude and altitude and will continue to trim until it reaches it's limits. Then when the AP disconnects all hell breaks loose, and you had no idea what happened because the AP was engaged. Also, just because you have a known-ice airplane doesn't mean it's ok to be in poor icing conditions. Anything close to MOD icing means start finding a place where the conditions are better. Most airplanes with known-ice aren't even certified for anything above MOD ice. The recommended icing speed for your airplane really means nothing if you are loaded like a frat party keg with ice(not that you were, just saying).If I'm reading into your reply wrong then please disregard my comment. Take Care
 
Folks, Dave is one of the most safety oriented pilots I've met and puts more effort into proficiency and safety than about anyone on this board. He knows what he's talking about and is no stranger to ice or how to deal with it.

Now get back in your armchairs so you can yell at the football players on tv how much better you'd do. Don't forget the beer and pork rinds to nurse your pot belly.
 
If the tail starts to lose lift, won't the plane slow down? If the auto pilot tries to maintain lift, wouldn't it trim up?
I check to see if controls are free to detect any accumulation that could inhibit control movement. I can see the horizontal stab on the right side of the plane; co-pilot can see the left.

Best,

Dave
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Folks, Dave is one of the most safety oriented pilots I've met and puts more effort into proficiency and safety than about anyone on this board. He knows what he's talking about and is no stranger to ice or how to deal with it.

Now get back in your armchairs so you can yell at the football players on tv how much better you'd do. Don't forget the beer and pork rinds to nurse your pot belly.
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Not trying to be "That guy" just making sure everyone understands the reasoning for disengaging the A/P in bad icing conditions.

Dave Siciliano said:
If the tail starts to lose lift, won't the plane slow down? If the auto pilot tries to maintain lift, wouldn't it trim up?
I check to see if controls are free to detect any accumulation that could inhibit control movement. I can see the horizontal stab on the right side of the plane; co-pilot can see the left.

Best,

Dave
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That is correct Dave and the reason why if the A/P is engaged you might not know that it is trimming full nose up as the tail is losing lift. The airplane is slowing down because of the increase in induced drag and AOA with the load of ice, as well as the increase in weight and the drag from the formed ice. Not a bad idea to check that the controls are free, but honestly if you are picking up ice bad enough to form at the hinge line then you probably have bigger issues. Don't forget whatever ice is on your wing you can count on possibly 3x that amount on the tail.
 
hkyplr18 said:
Not trying to be "That guy" just making sure everyone understands the reasoning for disengaging the A/P in bad icing conditions.



That is correct Dave and the reason why if the A/P is engaged you might not know that it is trimming full nose up as the tail is losing lift. The airplane is slowing down because of the increase in induced drag and AOA with the load of ice, as well as the increase in weight and the drag from the formed ice. Not a bad idea to check that the controls are free, but honestly if you are picking up ice bad enough to form at the hinge line then you probably have bigger issues. Don't forget whatever ice is on your wing you can count on possibly 3x that amount on the tail.
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Even if you are new here, I think it's safe to assume Dave has been to this rodeo more than once based on the aircraft he is flying. Also, judging from the photos and description, and aircraft capability, this was not an alarming situation, but rather a very routine one for any of us who fly in IMC.

You have some valid points, but they really aren't pertinent to this situation. It would make for a great discussion in a new thread, IMO. Then perhaps you can share your icing experience that has you so passionate about A/P use/non-use. :)
 
Isn't that what I have GPSS? So I can take a nap while Otto flies me around? :D
 
Laurie said:
Even if you are new here, I think it's safe to assume Dave has been to this rodeo more than once based on the aircraft he is flying. Also, judging from the photos and description, and aircraft capability, this was not an alarming situation, but rather a very routine one for any of us who fly in IMC.

You have some valid points, but they really aren't pertinent to this situation. It would make for a great discussion in a new thread, IMO. Then perhaps you can share your icing experience that has you so passionate about A/P use/non-use. :)
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I am not judging Dave or his abilities. I was simply curious as to what he meant about " Checking controls in icing". That is usually not a SOP when flying in ice, so I asked. Someone who fly's turbine aircraft is not a direct reflection of his or hers ability and if you think that then I have some stories for you... I think my points are valid since we are talking about icing right?
 
hkyplr18 said:
I am not judging Dave or his abilities. I was simply curious as to what he meant about " Checking controls in icing". That is usually not a SOP when flying in ice, so I asked. Someone who fly's turbine aircraft is not a direct reflection of his or hers ability and if you think that then I have some stories for you... I think my points are valid since we are talking about icing right?
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Isn't checking the controls one of the things they suggest in the NASA video? The purpose was not for freedom of movement but to make sure the plane is still responding normally vs heavy/mushy. My understanding was that's fairly standard in lighter aircraft and is a practice I do.

I've had a load of ice on the Aztec where the controls indicated that the plane was flying like crap. So I was careful with my inputs as a response while I got out of there.
 
I certainly agree with engineer Ted! Testing controls certainly tells the pilot how the plane feels and after a couple hundred hours in a plane, that can tell the pilot a lot. In addition, ice can bridge across a point where controls interface and interfere with those controls. Testing can let one know if there is an issue or not.
We all read these accident reports and know there are many factors that gang up to lead to problems. Speed did not decrease in this case, trim didn't materially move: I have a BIG trim wheel at my right that I do look at. Speed is important in icing conditions. If one slows and the nose goes up, more ice can accumulate on the underside of the plane where it's not easily detectable.
Great discussion, but this plane is very capable and if icing conditions are reasonable, it will handle them well. Moderate ice is something I avoid or leave as quickly as possible. This was trace to light at most.

Best,

Dave
 
Turbine Beech equipment take ice like super champions. "Checking the controls" isn't the craziest thing I have ever heard, but it is not SOP in any turbine equipment I have flown, especially in RVSM airspace.
 
Of course, I'm lower and slower. Not RVSM. Over the years, I've just become accustom to turning off AP on trips, checking handling and going back on AP if appropriate. May fly 10 ro 15 minutes by hand. In light icing with AP on, I constantly check, trim airspeed and how de-ice equipment is working; periodically check handling. A couple times, the plane has felt heavy (in my 58P) when only minor icing was visible. Found it could accumulate underneath in some conditions and stated putting deice stuff on the noticeable protrusions like large antennas, etc, if icing was probable. Don't see any downside to it. Many things aren't in any book that can be helpful at times.

In your equipment where stall is so close to cruise higher up and spacing is closer I could certainly see using the AP more. In this case, I was deviating anyway.

Best,

Dave
 
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Oh I wasn't directing my comment towards you. I guess I should have quoted, I was responding to the other guys question whether that was SOP or not. I don't think its bad practice at all. In the Lear, icing is never really an issue. In fact the thing I hate about it the most is that I don't get cool pics with the wings loaded up with ice anymore. So worrying about getting too much ice is just not a primary concern. The anti-icing equipment is also pretty darn good so when we are in icing conditions, they can take care of the job very well. That being said, I watch the trim, speeds and power settings to make sure they make sense.
 
Inverted said:
Oh I wasn't directing my comment towards you.
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Oh! Sorry. A lot of us sit around at chat about stuff like this at SIMCOM each year. We have a group of six or eight and we give presentations to the others and listen to theirs. One fella develops a supplemental training program for emergencies. Even with AP on, I have to stabilize this at times. It will start to roll in turbulence. I can dampen it a bit and do better.

Best,

Dave
 
What AP does the KA have?
 
Probably depends on the model. I have seen S-Tec 30, and 50 models in there. I flew one that had a Collins APC 65 in it.
 
This is a Century 41. Very solid AP but needs a tune up bad. I'll bet it hasn't been worked on in a L O N G time. Need to look back through the logs. Rolls a bit in turbulence, a bit late in GPSS on some turns and loses a bit of altitude in turns. Got it down for a trip to AP Central in Tulsa when we have time to put the plane in.

Best,

Dave
 
One thing I noticed immediately with the turbine aircraft I flew was that the APs were far more capable and nicer than what I was used to on the piston side. That's why I was curious - I bet after the tune-up it will be nice.
 
Yes, very solid compared to the KFC-200 I had in the 58P and TN A-36. That AP decoupled many times. I'd hear the alert and reset or hand fly it. I don't think this has ever just kicked off. I have, of course, kicked it off and early on accidentally a few times when I hit the incorrect button (g).

I also don't understand the problem with trim being up and the AP decoupling unless one was rotating on the takeoff roll. I've quickly forced the nose down and re-trimmed many times. Didn't reset trim correctly before departure once and noticed on the takeoff roll it yoke felt very light; immediately held it forward and re-trimmed on the way to rotating--non-event. I didn't like doing it, but don't understand why folks don't feel it coming and adjust.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Yes, very solid compared to the KFC-200 I had in the 58P and TN A-36. That AP decoupled many times. I'd hear the alert and reset or hand fly it. I don't think this has ever just kicked off. I have, of course, kicked it off and early on accidentally a few times when I hit the incorrect button (g).

I also don't understand the problem with trim being up and the AP decoupling unless one was rotating on the takeoff roll. I've quickly forced the nose down and re-trimmed many times. Didn't reset trim correctly before departure once and noticed on the takeoff roll it yoke felt very light; immediately held it forward and re-trimmed on the way to rotating--non-event. I didn't like doing it, but don't understand why folks don't feel it coming and adjust.

Best,

Dave
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I have a KFC200 in my Mooney and it is definitely my favorite AP I've ever flown with - dirt simple to run and it has electric trim which is nice.

The KAP140 in a 182 I flew was by far the WORST autopilot I have ever flown with.
 
DavidWhite said:
I have a KFC200 in my Mooney and it is definitely my favorite AP I've ever flown with - dirt simple to run and it has electric trim which is nice.

The KAP140 in a 182 I flew was by far the WORST autopilot I have ever flown with.
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As we discussed when you were looking at the Mooney, the KFC200 is my favorite piston autopilot.

But as much as you may like that AP, the turbine APs are worlds better. The first time I flew the Cheyenne with a KFC300, it was a heavenly autopilot expperience. The turbine world just has better autopilots, at least for the age of aircraft we fly.
 
DavidWhite said:
The KAP140 in a 182 I flew was by far the WORST autopilot I have ever flown with.
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Must have had a bad one, cause if that is the worst, you couldn't have flown many Ottos. Although KAP140 has some quirks, it still flies purty nice for pistons. Now a GFC700....:yes: Thats real nice.

Ted is right though, turbine A/C Ottos are so much nicer.

For what its worth I have only flown one A/C that is SOP to disconnect the AP in icing and that is the Caravan.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I also don't understand the problem with trim being up and the AP decoupling unless one was rotating on the takeoff roll. I've quickly forced the nose down and re-trimmed many times. Didn't reset trim correctly before departure once and noticed on the takeoff roll it yoke felt very light; immediately held it forward and re-trimmed on the way to rotating--non-event. I didn't like doing it, but don't understand why folks don't feel it coming and adjust.
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That's an interesting one. The Century IIIC in the Navajos would frequently have runaway trim. If you didn't catch it, the elevator servo would fight it until the thing just ran out of authority and let go entirely. It was the sort of thing that was annoying, but manageable. And the owner refused to fix it.
 
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