A good plane. Bad broker. My first experience trying to buy a plane.

So when someone offered to harass the broker a link to the ad was posted. When someone encouraged contacting the owner, his contact info was posted here. Regardless of the ease of access to contact info, I don't think it needs to be dragged further into the public eye here for retribution. A review of the POA TOS might be in order.

Nauga,
and a piece of PII

Actually, the ad link was first posted in the OP's other thread in which he stated his undying love for the perfect plane.

I agree with your point completely regarding harassing the broker. . As I stated in a previous post, "why bother with revenge, move on." But I don't think the OP was the one making threats (or threatening to make threats). Wasn't it the superpilot, super-businessman AZbb? And someone else was suggesting kicking the broker where it hurts. Those folks need to grow up. I never think it's appropriate to react to words with violence. Just walk away. So what if the broker cussesd at the potential buyer because of a lowball offer. How do those words cause harm, exactly?

I think the OP's intent wrt the owner was to let him know that the broker wasn't, in the OP's opinion, properly representing the seller's interests. My point about that is, again, why bother? The seller chose the broker, and if the seller really cared, he would have done his due dilligence and set the parameters for what he is willing to take. It may be that the seller is just as grumpy and curmudgenly as the broker was alleged to be.

My advice to the OP is just to move on and try again. No reason to try to "fix" either the broker's attitude or talk to the seller. Move on.


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Actually, the ad link was first posted in the OP's other thread in which he stated his undying love for the perfect plane.
...and reposted here directly in response to an offer to "mind f**k [the broker] so bad." The owner's name, address, and phone number were posted in this thread. I expect the harassment offer was posturing, the owner's info...not so much. I don't disagree with the need to let the owner know how his agent treated a potential customer, but I strongly disagree with the open posting when a PM would suffice.

Nauga,
and temporary permanence
 
Should have kicked him in the dick. If it is anything like car sales there are a ton of slimy sales guys out there.

I'm sure you'll get some jerks on here too saying he handled himself in a fine manner lollll

That would be assault and battery. How is it a good thing to react to a jerk's words with violence? Grow up.

The OP should have done exactly as they did and just walked away. There are plenty of other planes out there.


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That would be assault and battery. How is it a good thing to react to a jerk's words with violence? Grow up.

The OP should have done exactly as they did and just walked away. There are plenty of other planes out there.


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FFS...It was a joke. Christ...
 
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...and reposted here directly in response to an offer to "mind f**k [the broker] so bad." The owner's name, address, and phone number were posted in this thread. I expect the harassment offer was posturing, the owner's info...not so much. I don't disagree with the need to let the owner know how his agent treated a potential customer, but I strongly disagree with the open posting when a PM would suffice.

Nauga,
and temporary permanence

You're right, I reviewed the thread and saw that. Some really immature reactions to a bad experience.

I guess what I don't get is the desire for violence or revenge here. The OP and his father were somewhat naive when going into this deal and were treated poorly by the broker. Big deal. Move on and find another plane.

The person who showed off their "Google fu" skills and and posted the aleged seller's contact info may have been a bit out of line as there's no way to really prove that the person listed is in fact the seller. Online databases sometimes have incorrect info regarding people-address linkages. I know that in the past, when I've looked up my particular address, I've seen people listed who either have never lived here or don't live here now. That might be the case with the person posted. I did try to look up that person in the FAA database, I could find no record of that person as a pilot, which leads me to believe that there may have been an error in associatiing that person as the seller.

I do think it was appropriate for the OP to post about his bad experience and to name the broker. That's a potential service to others who may be thinking about potential business interations with that particular broker. Poor customer interactions should be publicized, with the potential consequences being that people might chose to take their business elsewhere. Although a Yelp review might be more appropriate.


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This is a recap of what happend this past few days seriously looking to buy a plane.

We talked on the phone with the broker and arranged a meeting, so we drove 3 hours from north Houston to Dallas. It was me my dad and my brother. We got in late and got a hotel so the next day we drove to the airport and met with a mechanic I had been emailing with. We met at the restaurant at the field and talked about what we wanted and this is the first time we got a clue about the broker. The way the mechanic described the Broker (who I will name him and his company shortly) I started to have a feeling. So we left the mechanic and drove over to the FBO to meet the Broker.

The Brokers name is David Dick of metroplex aviation, little did I know he would live up to his last name. Our first meeting went ok, it was me and my dad and him. He seemed nice and we made small talk and walked over to the hanger and pulled the plane out. The plane was beautiful, I kept my poker face on and examined the plane and it did indeed look nice, we popped off a few inspection plates and everything looked good inside and out. Mr Dick went of his sales pitch saying there was no corrosion anywhere and this was the finest archer ever. He also said he would not take anything but the asking price, which was 84,500!

We flew the plane and everything looked good. We went back over to the FBO to look over the log books and talk while the mechanic we first talked to was on his way. We made small talk with Mr. Dick and we explained we were very new at this and might need some help figuring things out. He went on about how he had 3 people already looking at the airplane and it was going to be gone if we didn't get it. The mechanic took a few minutes to come over so we made some more small talk about the industry and how he knew everything about the business. and this is we're things got weird, he braggingly told us a story about how he almost got fired from being a car salesmen becuae a woman was asking him the prices of some cars and he told us he told the woman "Go check your own f**king prices" we just kind of smiled and let him keep talking. So that was our first heads up something was wrong.

The mechanic came and he went over and he checked the plane over. He said everything in general looked good but... there was corrosion all around the battery and all down the tail were all the paint had bubbled up and flaked off, and the wheels were worn out. On the engine there was a few bolts that were not the right kind and some fasteners missing and a few other things i don't remember.

So we thank and paid the mechanic and we turn around and Mr. Dick was in his car and we shook hands and he left. So we shut up the hanger and left.


Fast forward to the next day, we spend the night at my grandmas house and we were trying to do some research on the things that needed to be done on the airplane before we made our offer, the mechanic was putting together a list for us of things he noticed on the airplane that needed to be worked on.

This is were things went wrong, and I want to say we did NOTHING WRONG in this entire thing. Me and my dad want to get the ball rolling on this so we call Mr. Dick to give him our first offer. My dad did all the talking and I just listened, my dad mentioned several of the things the mechanic saw, and my dad gave our first FIRST offer. I want to stress that we are very new to this and my dad made sure to tell him that we maybe off the mark with our first offer but atleast the ball would be rolling.

My dads first offer was 75k and the words had barely left his mouth when this so called "professional" LOST HIS FREAKING MIND. It wasn't even on speaker and this guy in his late 60s was calling my dad a mother f**ker and how we "wasted 4 total hours of his f**king time"...

in all this my Dad never even raised his voice... he tried to tell him we maybe off but let's have a conversation on this, but David Dick
just screamed over him and now my dad was fed up, in a firm tone my dad
Told him to settle down then he just hung up on us.

I could hardly believe that he talked to us this way EVEN IF WE WERE OFF ON THE PRICE. Me and my dad took off work to drive up here for 2 days and we were very serious buyers, we had cash in the bank ready to go and he cursed and yelled over a few hours of his time JUST BECAUSE OF OUR FIRST OFFER, I thought this was a negotiation! Looking back I realize that this guy was a condescending pr!ck from the start. Me and my dad work together and we have to deal with customers and we would never dream to treat even someone who was rude to us with such contempt.

My dad tried to call him back right after and left a voice mail when he would not pick up. My dad told his exactly what I just said about customer service and that all we wanted was to start talking about a price NOT GET BERATED AND CURESED OUT BY A ^]^{^|*]+¥|€\*&&@&&

So I was really bummed out and also ****ed about this. We got on the road immediately because by this point I knew the entire trip was a bust. I sent a final email to the mechanic (who was really awesome and nice and will definitely use again) a email telling him we appreciated his help and that the deal went south because of the Mr Dicks distain for customers. To my surprise the mechanic called me minutes later wanting to know what happend, so we explained to him what did happen and here's what he said "I'm not surprised he did that" because he knew he had an attitude and he agreed that he was WAY out of line.


So that's it. That's our first ever experience working with a broker and our first serious effort to get a plane.

I tried to be as honest as possible when writing this because with as small as aviation is I'm sure someone here has delt with David Dick but let me say this again
THIS GUY ONLY CARES ABOUT HIS CUT AND DOES NOT GIVE A RATS A$$ ABOUT THE CUSTOMER. So if you are in the Dallas/FortWorth area DO NOT DEAL WITH THIS WORLD CLASS ****OLE.

[RANT_OFF/]


Based on what you posted, did your offer have any stipulation for a real pre-buy inspection how discrepancies would be handled?
 
As Ted mentioned, there isn't a SOP for buying planes. My $0.02 for your next purchase process (based purely on what worked for me). I would review the plane as advertised. Make sure it is what you want initially. Get all the scanned logs emailed to you and go over them in detail (can send them to your mechanic). Verify that all installed equipment is operational. Go and look at the plane (if practical). Run Vref (understand the limitations). Get opinions of like owners (owners group is very valuable). Make an offer and settle on an agreed price (paperwork applicable, ensure pending the pre-purchase,etc). Then coordinate for your mechanic to do a pre-purchase at the agreed place. Get the write-up from your mechanic and negotiate if needed a lower price to cover deficiencies, buy because of no major deficiencies or cancel because you don't agree on how to move forward.
 
But all of that posted info is publicly available and can be derived from the N number of the plane as seen in the Trade-A-Plane ad. The broker's info is also in the ad.

The only thing I think the OP should be careful of is clearly deliniating his facts from opinions in his original post made when he was angry. I see no harm in the OP sharing his experience with others.


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I agree with this post.
 
The real disconnect here is novice airplane buyers didn't start with a Cessna 150. They started with a fairly capable and expensive airplane. That makes the purchase considerably more complex. During my last airplane purchase I was up front about telling the seller that I wouldn't agree to a price until I (and the mechanic of my choice) saw the aircraft. I would advise anyone to do likewise. My two questions are always (1) is the aircraft priced appropriately? If not, be up front about it and why. My second question is after the inspection, is the aircraft as advertised? If not, what will it take to get it to that point and who's going to pay what to get it there?
I doubt I'd want to deal with anyone who wouldn't tak these simple things into consideration.
 
*** Something that has also helped, is having a paying for a mechanic on the field for a walk over. Just peak in everything that is open and take pics and document. Usually about one hour of time. This lets the seller know you are serious, and also gives a good early indication of the plane.
Tim

Brilliant! Thanks.
 
But all of that posted info is publicly available and can be derived from the N number of the plane as seen in the Trade-A-Plane ad. The broker's info is also in the ad.

Yep, all that info is public and on the internet elsewhere. Nothing wrong with anyone posting it here too regardless of what some think.
 
Nothing wrong with anyone posting it here too regardless of what some think.
Have you read the POA TOS recently? "Participants shall not post messages containing personal contact information other than their own. This includes, but is not limited to, phone numbers, email addresses and mailing/physical addresses."

The fact that one can find contact info for someone doesn't mean one should broadcast it themselves.

Nauga,
who values his privacy
 
Have you read the POA TOS recently? "Participants shall not post messages containing personal contact information other than their own. This includes, but is not limited to, phone numbers, email addresses and mailing/physical addresses."

Nauga,
who values his privacy

Yep. The person who wants the info needs to locate it themself and others should stay clear of it.
 
Have you read the POA TOS recently? "Participants shall not post messages containing personal contact information other than their own. This includes, but is not limited to, phone numbers, email addresses and mailing/physical addresses."

Who reads any of that when it's not in the warning or ban message from .......
 
During my last airplane purchase I was up front about telling the seller that I wouldn't agree to a price until I (and the mechanic of my choice) saw the aircraft. I would advise anyone to do likewise.
Seeing the airplane is one thing. Allowing a unknown mechanic twist wrenches on my plane with no money in escrow or a purchase agreement, I wouldn't allow. That's just me.
 
I agree on two whatever parties.

All are invited.
Somebody post their address and we'll get started.
 
Seeing the airplane is one thing. Allowing a unknown mechanic twist wrenches on my plane with no money in escrow or a purchase agreement, I wouldn't allow. That's just me.

Agreed. Better for both parties to get an agreement on price prior to wasting time on a pre-buy or traveling to see the plane. Buyer doesn't waste time if an agreement can't be reached, and the seller knows that the buyer isn't just a tire kicker. Doing the deal this way doesn't preclude the buyer from walking away based on the pre-buy uncovering deal breaking issues, but it saves time in the long run for both parties.


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Now carefully remove the 1/2" bait hook from your lip and move on .... :D


Maw! Ah saaad MAW! I'z gutz 'nudder one! Yee-haw! :D

566b7e3c7deed779a6862e3d04a301a5.jpg
 
Boy am I happy that when I bought my plane it was from a gentleman at my local airport who was ending his flying career and knew I was looking.
 
When I bought my Mooney I really wanted and would have been happy to pay for an inspection at a local Mooney center. The seller balked, and I certainly can't blame him. That said, had he indicated the no qualified mechanic would have been good enough to inspect his airplane, I would have walked and that would have been the end of it.
As it is I found a perfectly competent mechanic on the field, saw the aircraft was as clean as indicated, and went ahead with the deal. Didn't hurt that a former owner (before the guy from whom I was buying it) was still quite enthusiastic about the aircraft (he had to sell it because of a carreer change).
Those of you who would not allow an inspection of your aircraft will sell it to naught but fools. Then again, you may be all right. In this world fools abound.
 
So, the buyer normally agree on price from a remote location based on the photos and related description within an online ad to show seriousness, takes a test flight, and has a professional inspection, and then adjusts down or cancels based on the inspection?

Is that normal?

As a future buyer, it seems odd to agree on a price before physically seeing the plane. Or am I missing something?

My 310 is under contract with a deposit sight unseen. We have to negotiate on airworthiness items found during the prebuy at a mutually agreed neutral shop. They cover delivery costs, inspection costs, and have to return the plane to me in the same condition it was brought to the shop. They can back out for non-airworthy squawks, but I keep the deposit which was not negligible.
 
My 310 is under contract with a deposit sight unseen. We have to negotiate on airworthiness items found during the prebuy at a mutually agreed neutral shop. They cover delivery costs, inspection costs, and have to return the plane to me in the same condition it was brought to the shop. They can back out for non-airworthy squawks, but I keep the deposit which was not negligible.

Also think through the problem of resolution for what you, the buyer or the mechanic disagree on airworthy items; or in a what SHTF scenario of the mechanic finding something which effectively grounds the plane and the buyer is unable to return the plane back to your airport.

Tim
 
I can share a story... It involves a guy named Barron Thomas and a Beech Skipper.... But I am assuming just the mere mention of the name Barron Thomas can save me 20 minutes of typing..

Sorry to hear of your bad experience....
 
I'm looking at a plane that is listed on 3 different brokerage sites in 3 different states (not the big on-line sites). All the sites are owned by the same guy.
The same plane is listed on all three sites.
I called one of the numbers to verify the "N" number and identity of the plane.
The total number of hours on the plane is in the range of 200hrs different on all three sites.
The description of what is installed in the plane is wildly different on all three sites.
The price is different on all three sites, by as much as $2,000.00 per site.
"No Damage History", yet I know the plane had a prop strike. Also he has three different hours listed for the prop.

BTW: The same type plane, same year, fewer hours, fully equipped, on the big, on-line sites, is averaging @ $18,000.00 less.

After I get done mowing the lawn, I think I might see what kind of fun I can have with this.
"Hi. Is this "Sleazy Al's House of Aircraft?"
"I'd like this "N" number, with this number of hours, with this installed, for this much money." I'll mix and match the particulars from the different sites. :)
 
My 310 is under contract with a deposit sight unseen. We have to negotiate on airworthiness items found during the prebuy at a mutually agreed neutral shop. They cover delivery costs, inspection costs, and have to return the plane to me in the same condition it was brought to the shop. They can back out for non-airworthy squawks, but I keep the deposit which was not negligible.

James,

It would be nice if all deals met your criteria. Most don't. I've seen some real "peaches", best described by a fellow IA as "Old whore, new dress". Only one was perfect. Flown from southern Ohio to KPTK and inspected for a buyer in New York. It had been maintained so well the buyer skated through his first annual with no squawks. That doesn't happen often.
 
So, the buyer normally agree on price from a remote location based on the photos and related description within an online ad to show seriousness, takes a test flight, and has a professional inspection, and then adjusts down or cancels based on the inspection?

Is that normal?

As a future buyer, it seems odd to agree on a price before physically seeing the plane. Or am I missing something?
As I posted early in this thread, it isn't abnormal, but every airplane deal is just a little bit different. How the deal is handled depends entirely on what the parties involved are comfortable with and agree to whether in writing or verbally.

Ive done deals where I bought two airplanes sight unseen (my Baron and the Beech 18). Others involved seeing the airplane in person and working out a price after the fact.

So many variables to say "this is how it is done" on an Internet forum.
 
did the broker ever tender your offer to the seller as is the norm and in most broker contracts I have signed as a seller?
 
Also think through the problem of resolution for what you, the buyer or the mechanic disagree on airworthy items; or in a what SHTF scenario of the mechanic finding something which effectively grounds the plane and the buyer is unable to return the plane back to your airport.

Tim
I'm pretty sure a mechanic doing an "inspection" can't ground anything.
 
I am the broker in question, and I am deeply embarrassed by my reaction to buyer’s offer and my unprofessional tirade with him. I had just returned to my office from a huge traffic jam and was in no mood to talk with anyone. I should have cooled off before returning his call, but I had been out all afternoon and knew he wanted to speak with me ASAP. I have apologized to the father and son as well as informed the owner of the airplane of my inappropriate behavior and the essence of what happened.

So, I would like to tell my side of the story:

I sent a copy of the Vref report that I prepared prior to their arrival in Dallas along with a detailed spec sheet, copies of logbooks, etc. After demonstrating the airplane to his son, I spent over an hour talking with them, answering their questions and sharing again the Vref report and Vref reports on several other Archer II’s showing that they were all priced much higher than Vref and mine was priced well below Vref, indicating that the Archer II market appeared to be strong. I also told them that with less than two weeks on the market I had already shown it to one person from California who is arranging financing and had serious interest from a couple others including one who was coming in from out of town a couple of days later, and who said that his Vref agreed with mine and “I have no problem with your price”. I made it clear to the father and son that considering my airplane was clearly a better value and investment than the others, that I was expecting the airplane to sell for asking price or very close to it. I never said that the price was firm.

The father asked about how the sales process worked, title searches, etc. and I replied that the next step would be to make an offer, and if accepted, I would work up a Purchase Agreement for the party’s signatures and he would bind it with a deposit either to me directly or to an escrow/title company. Then, it would go to a mechanic or shop of his choosing in the DFW area for a prebuy inspection, and that Seller would be responsible for correcting any “airworthiness issues” found.

He asked if he could have the mechanic on the airport first take a look at the airplane in its hangar and just walk around and point out anything obvious – not a prebuy inspection. And since they didn’t know anything about airplanes, this would enlighten them a bit more before proceeding. They had already talked to the mechanic and he had agreed to do this. I said “sure, no problem” and left them alone with him.

The next day during our phone conversation, the father said that he still hadn’t received the discrepancy list from the mechanic with the estimated costs to remedy a few discrepancies which included worn MLG tires, peeling paint (not corrosion) on the belly as a result of battery acid, some non standard bolts on the engine and some fasteners missing, but “the mechanic said that none of the items on the list were non-airworthy and that it was a very nice airplane”. Then the father said to me that it was probably going to be $6,000 to remedy all of them. Therefore, I would like to make an offer of $75,000. And, since I know that you are going to take a hit on your commission, I will make up the difference between what you would have made at $84,900. Well, my commission does not EVER play a part in what I am trying to sell an airplane for. Since I represent the seller, I am obligated to get him the most that I can – a fair market price within a reasonable period of time. And, anyway the difference in commission would have been less than $300.00 -hardly an amount that would influence me.

I have been selling airplanes on and off since 1973 and have had my own sales company since 1985. I have many, many satisfied customers. A few of these have written Testimonials on my website. Yet, I do occasionally make mistakes, but I learn from them. I certainly have learned from this experience.
 
Thanks for telling your side of the story. Takes courage to wade into this.

So has any of your other prospects worked out yet?
 
I am the broker in question, and I am deeply embarrassed by my reaction to buyer’s offer and my unprofessional tirade with him.
Takes a big man to step up to the plate and admit their mistakes. There's always two sides to a story and you've said your piece. My props go out to you.
 
For some reason, I am inclined to believe the broker's side of the story. Does not excuse any bad behavior but it does help to explain why he would have been upset at the buyers.
 
I suppose I'm waiting for the late Paul Harvey to tell me "That's the rest of the story".

For those younger than 99, you can look him up.

"Good Day"

Cheers
 
There appears to be a buncha way to buy a plane. I've had mechanics look at two planes in the past 6 weeks with no offer and no money in escrow.

Mr Dick, welcome to PoA and props for telling your side and admitting to a mistake. Takes some stones, especially with this buncha yahoos.
 
I am the broker in question, and I am deeply embarrassed by my reaction to buyer’s offer and my unprofessional tirade with him. I had just returned to my office from a huge traffic jam and was in no mood to talk with anyone. I should have cooled off before returning his call, but I had been out all afternoon and knew he wanted to speak with me ASAP. I have apologized to the father and son as well as informed the owner of the airplane of my inappropriate behavior and the essence of what happened.

So, I would like to tell my side of the story:

I sent a copy of the Vref report that I prepared prior to their arrival in Dallas along with a detailed spec sheet, copies of logbooks, etc. After demonstrating the airplane to his son, I spent over an hour talking with them, answering their questions and sharing again the Vref report and Vref reports on several other Archer II’s showing that they were all priced much higher than Vref and mine was priced well below Vref, indicating that the Archer II market appeared to be strong. I also told them that with less than two weeks on the market I had already shown it to one person from California who is arranging financing and had serious interest from a couple others including one who was coming in from out of town a couple of days later, and who said that his Vref agreed with mine and “I have no problem with your price”. I made it clear to the father and son that considering my airplane was clearly a better value and investment than the others, that I was expecting the airplane to sell for asking price or very close to it. I never said that the price was firm.

The father asked about how the sales process worked, title searches, etc. and I replied that the next step would be to make an offer, and if accepted, I would work up a Purchase Agreement for the party’s signatures and he would bind it with a deposit either to me directly or to an escrow/title company. Then, it would go to a mechanic or shop of his choosing in the DFW area for a prebuy inspection, and that Seller would be responsible for correcting any “airworthiness issues” found.

He asked if he could have the mechanic on the airport first take a look at the airplane in its hangar and just walk around and point out anything obvious – not a prebuy inspection. And since they didn’t know anything about airplanes, this would enlighten them a bit more before proceeding. They had already talked to the mechanic and he had agreed to do this. I said “sure, no problem” and left them alone with him.

The next day during our phone conversation, the father said that he still hadn’t received the discrepancy list from the mechanic with the estimated costs to remedy a few discrepancies which included worn MLG tires, peeling paint (not corrosion) on the belly as a result of battery acid, some non standard bolts on the engine and some fasteners missing, but “the mechanic said that none of the items on the list were non-airworthy and that it was a very nice airplane”. Then the father said to me that it was probably going to be $6,000 to remedy all of them. Therefore, I would like to make an offer of $75,000. And, since I know that you are going to take a hit on your commission, I will make up the difference between what you would have made at $84,900. Well, my commission does not EVER play a part in what I am trying to sell an airplane for. Since I represent the seller, I am obligated to get him the most that I can – a fair market price within a reasonable period of time. And, anyway the difference in commission would have been less than $300.00 -hardly an amount that would influence me.

I have been selling airplanes on and off since 1973 and have had my own sales company since 1985. I have many, many satisfied customers. A few of these have written Testimonials on my website. Yet, I do occasionally make mistakes, but I learn from them. I certainly have learned from this experience.


Just wanted to let you know we appreciate your apology, and good luck selling the airplane and no hard feelings :thumbsup:
 
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