A friend wants a Mooney J

FloridaPilot

FloridaPilot

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Hello,

I have to admit since I have been on this flying journey I have been encouraging my friends who "Always wanted to do that" to just go out and try it. I even give them free intro flights at the flight school that I attend when they have them. I have a friend who always wanted to get into Mooney's (J model). He asked me (Which I didn't have a decent answer) "Why should I fly a Cessna 172 to train to fly in a Mooney? Shouldn't I train in a Piper because it's low wing like a Mooney" My Flight school drums into his head you have to learn in a Cessna 172 first.

What do you folks think?
 
sounds like they're saying everyone who ever trained in something other than a cessna then went to a mooney did it wrong.
 
They pretty much all work the same, pull back to go up, push forward to go down.

Did you have to learn to drive in a Chevy but you wanted a Ford?
 
FloridaPilot said:
Hello,

I have to admit since I have been on this flying journey I have been encouraging my friends who "Always wanted to do that" to just go out and try it. I even give them free intro flights at the flight school that I attend when they have them. I have a friend who always wanted to get into Mooney's (J model). He asked me (Which I didn't have a decent answer) "Why should I fly a Cessna 172 to train to fly in a Mooney? Shouldn't I train in a Piper because it's low wing like a Mooney" My Flight school drums into his head you have to learn in a Cessna 172 first.

What do you folks think?
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I think your flight school has C172's
 
this gets brought up on mooneyspace a fair amount. As far as the learning aspect, I think it's fine. It's just one more thing to remember, but it's not rocket science. You also have to watch your speed a little closer IMO. My main reason for recommending someone else's plane is because of the wear and tear during the learning phase. I'm sure my mooney would have been fine, but I do recall hitting the earth pretty hard several times during my PPL training. If my son wanted to get his license, I would have him rent initially.

edit--nevermind, I read the post wrong. I trained in a 172 then went to a 180 cherokee before the mooney. Really not a big deal.
 
So you guys are saying that once he gets his PPL in a Cessna 172 he can purchase a Mooney right away? Our school has an archer but they are hard to rent because they are always booked.
 
Would it be better to find a place that teaches in a Piper instead? Speeds are really slow in a 140/180.
 
I don't think anyone is saying what he can or can't do. regardless of what you've flown in the past, what most of the mooney guys will recommend is to get mooney-specific transition training, hopefully from a mooney knowledgeable CFI.
 
FloridaPilot said:
So you guys are saying that once he gets his PPL in a Cessna 172 he can purchase a Mooney right away? Our school has an archer but they are hard to rent because they are always booked.
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All you need to fly a Mooney (after your PPL) is a complex endorsement. It has constant speed prop, retractable landing gear and flaps. If it's a model which has more than 200HP you also need a high performance endorsement.

Most of the relevant arguments have already been addressed: primary training puts wear & tear on an airplane that you might not want on YOUR airplane. Complex systems are more to deal with when you're learning basics, although there is an argument to be made for primacy and ab-inito training in what you will fly. Insurance for the Mooney will be significantly higher until your friend accumulates a number of hours of complex time.

High wing vs. low wing is not a big deal. The biggest problem I have switching is remembering to look for traffic toward the turn (before the wing comes down and blocks the view) in high wing vs away from the turn (before the wing comes up and blocks the view) in a low wing. There is more ground effect on a low wing but I guess I'm not a good enough stick to have ever noticed that much difference.

A Mooney is very slick and requires good speed management and planning. But that's not a high wing/low wing issue.

John
 
He needs an M20D.
 
Now that's a mooney with some leg room!... My wife would even agree with it!..

on another note, the only thing about training in the Mooney is more $$$.... would love to have my Dad's old M20K.... great plane!
 
FloridaPilot said:
Would it be better to find a place that teaches in a Piper instead? Speeds are really slow in a 140/180.
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No. There's little to almost no difference. I trained in a Cherokee. I've since flown 172s and 182s with no transition training. There's just not that much of a difference between them procedures wise and in how they land (well, you've got the the constant speed prop on the 182 procedures wise).

I've also flown a friends M20J (who's also a CFI, but it wasn't a training flight) for about 5 hours. If I had steady access to one and zero time in a Mooney, I'd absolutely require transition training, mostly because of how it lands and just getting comfortable with managing the plane in all phases.

No matter what, when he goes to the Mooney, he'll need training in it to feel comfortable and to get his complex endorsement. Training in a Cherokee isn't going to get him ready for a Mooney in any real tangible way over a 172. Low wing vs. high wing is not an issue. It's the fact that the Mooney is a much faster plane, is a complex airplane, can get ahead of you way easier, and is more challenging to land.
 
I only had 150ish hours when I bought my mooney, and nearly all of those were 21 years previous.

Mooney is a fun little airplane. Transitioning was a non event. And it's only really slick compared to cessnas, and if you don't train in those to start with, you won't be used to all that drag.

But. I would rather learn to land in someone else's airplane. Also, the rubber doughnuts (shock absorbers) make a bounce tricky. If you can already land a plane, it's a non issue. I don't know that I'd want to try to learn to land and deal with it, though.
 
I just went from flying a C150 (Slow simple plane) to flying a Mooney M20E. I don't see the big deal with the 172 thing. I have noticed that a Mooney requires faster thinking especially when I was flying a training IFR flight last weekend. What plane is the guy coming from?
 
I would get past solo, then it doesn't make a difference. The landing gear has no suspension like a 172 or cherokee. Not quite as forgiving but otherwise easy to fly. Insurance will require at least 10-15 hours dual, maybe more if you still have a student cert.
 
Mike5250 said:
I would get past solo, then it doesn't make a difference. The landing gear has no suspension like a 172 or cherokee. Not quite as forgiving but otherwise easy to fly. Insurance will require at least 10-15 hours dual, maybe more if you still have a student cert.
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My insurance required 10 duel and 5 solo.
 
eman1200 said:
I don't think anyone is saying what he can or can't do. regardless of what you've flown in the past, what most of the mooney guys will recommend is to get mooney-specific transition training, hopefully from a mooney knowledgeable CFI.
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+1

The transition training will also be an insurance requirement. Find an instructor who is familiar with the Mooney and its power management.
 
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eman1200 said:
I don't think anyone is saying what he can or can't do. regardless of what you've flown in the past, what most of the mooney guys will recommend is to get mooney-specific transition training, hopefully from a mooney knowledgeable CFI.
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^^^^ This. ^^^^

I bought my Mooney five weeks after my PPL checkride, with 62 hours in my logbook (all in the FBO's two 172s). Get a Mooney-knowledgable CFI, join the Mooney Aircraft Pilots Assn. and go to their weekend-long Pilot Proficiency Program. It's a great education, and will take you from knowing how to fly your Mooney to knowing how to correctly fly your Mooney (16 hours classroom, 4 hours flying in your plane with a CFII).

This all happened > 700 hours ago, but I still remember both my initial Mooney instructor and the nice MAPA guy I flew with a month later; I hit 100 hours enroute to the PPP. You will need a quality instructor who really knows Mooneys, and I had two of them.

My story isn't unusual with Mooney owners.
 
My mooney doesn't fly much like a piper, and it also doesn't fly like a cessna, so choosing one over the other to train in doesn't really make any difference in terms of similarity of flying characteristics. I did my PPL in a Cherokee, then flew cessnas a bunch then bought my Mooney. They all have the same controls and work the same, but the cherokee and the cessna fly very similar to each other, and less like the Mooney. Pick whichever plane is cheap and available, learn to fly and then transition to whatever plane you wanna buy.
 
I bought my low wing Super Viking a month after getting my PPL in a 172. The transition training covered everything needed including hp/complex enforcement and any nuances between high wing and low wing. If your friend plans to get insurance they will mandate so many hours of transition training regardless of what he trains it. So it really doesn't matter much.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
 
I had the similar question to my CFI when I started. The answer was, "learn on someone else's plane to land." I know I had some pretty exciting arrivals when learning to land and flare. I am sure there are divots on some of the runways around me still to this day. After you stop flaring at treetop heights and actually stop checking if your fillings came out after each landing, then they can decide. Remember, if the goal is become a PPL quickly, then switching planes will extend the lessons and time. But if you are certain of the plane you want and the mission, then why not?
 
SCCutler said:
Edit:

There's actually an M20D, unconverted, for sale, and look at that panel.

https://www.globalair.com/aircraft-for-sale/ListingDetail/Mooney-M20D?AdId=78795

If you go through all the pictures, you'll see the incredible skill those wizards in Kerrville have with interior packaging. They can make a mere 4-seater seem almost jet-like inside!
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That is one of only three M20Ds known to exist with their original fixed gear left in the world. This particular one is the only one with it's original fixed pitch prop. All the other Ds have either been written off the registry, or converted to be M20Cs... just as the factory intended.

To the op- Your friend can go straight to the Mooney as long as he gets a good instructor in Mooneys IMO. I also think that having time in Pipers Cherokees or any low wing plane is beneficial, but not necessary. If your friend is planning to get their IR right after PPL, then I would hold off, get the IR first, then transition to the Mooney.
 
Dav8or said:
If your friend is planning to get their IR right after PPL, then I would hold off, get the IR first, then transition to the Mooney.
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I disagree with this last part. I would have him transition to the Mooney then start the IR in the Mooney. 40 hours of flying (for the IFR) is a long time and a lot of flying for that rating, I don't think it would hold up a sharp pilot very much hour wise, Mooney are great IFR planes. Plus, he will probably need 10 hours of dual anyway to transition as a brand new PP. Might as well be studying for a rating while knocking those hours out.
 
If he's got the $$ for it, why not just buy his mooney and train in that?

I doubt any experienced pro pilot / CFI would have a issue, I wouldn't.
 
Learn to fly in a 172, I'd rather bang those early bad landings in some else's plane, because:
  1. Mooney landings require precise approach speeds.
  2. Those rubber biscuits are not real tolerant of drop in landings.
  3. The old sealant in those old wet wing tanks are not real tolerant of drop in landings.
  4. Three bounces and you're bought a prop and engine teardown.
  5. The engine is tightly cowled, power on stalls are fairly abusive to the engine IMHO.
  6. No brakes on the passenger side.
Seriously, learn in a 172, then transition. On the plus side, 172's are everywhere, you can be anywhere in the world and rent a 172 if you're comfortable in them.
 
dell30rb said:
I disagree with this last part. I would have him transition to the Mooney then start the IR in the Mooney. 40 hours of flying (for the IFR) is a long time and a lot of flying for that rating, I don't think it would hold up a sharp pilot very much hour wise, Mooney are great IFR planes. Plus, he will probably need 10 hours of dual anyway to transition as a brand new PP. Might as well be studying for a rating while knocking those hours out.
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I would agree with this, too. I got my IR in my mooney, and I'm glad I did.
 
James331 said:
If he's got the $$ for it, why not just buy his mooney and train in that?

I doubt any experienced pro pilot / CFI would have a issue, I wouldn't.
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Exactly! nothing strange or mysterious about a mooney. It's all about managing ones speed. It's a forgiving ,stable airplane and excellent for IFR. Get someone with time in one to fly with you for two three hours and it's bingo . I did this in two hours, from flying taildraggers, champ, stearman and 195 Cessna. The mooney was easy. Now if you've only flown a 172 from a 5-6000 ft. Runway , you may have a problem! I think my taildragger time was a big help. I landed the mooney and took off mainly from a 2200 ft. Runway.
.
 
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ChemGuy said:
They pretty much all work the same, pull back to go up, push forward to go down.

Did you have to learn to drive in a Chevy but you wanted a Ford?
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They obviously do NOT all work the same. In my plane you pull back to slow down and push forward to go faster. There's some goofy knob in the middle that makes the plane go up and down ... that's the way I was taught so your plane must be different. Need to check these things carefully, wouldn't want to buy the wrong kind of airplane and have to relearn everything.
 
forseth11 said:
I just went from flying a C150 (Slow simple plane) to flying a Mooney M20E. I don't see the big deal with the 172 thing. I have noticed that a Mooney requires faster thinking especially when I was flying a training IFR flight last weekend. What plane is the guy coming from?
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Is it because Mooney's are generally faster so you have to stay 1 step ahead?

Dav8or said:
That is one of only three M20Ds known to exist with their original fixed gear left in the world. This particular one is the only one with it's original fixed pitch prop. All the other Ds have either been written off the registry, or converted to be M20Cs... just as the factory intended.

I don't have much experience in Mooney's but from the outside looking in they look like awesome airplanes.

To the op- Your friend can go straight to the Mooney as long as he gets a good instructor in Mooney's IMO. I also think that having time in Pipers Cherokees or any low wing plane is beneficial, but not necessary. If your friend is planning to get their IR right after PPL, then I would hold off, get the IR first, then transition to the Mooney.
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Where would you find a GOOD Mooney instructor? Do they even exist in Florida?
 
FloridaPilot said:
Is it because Mooney's are generally faster so you have to stay 1 step ahead?



Where would you find a GOOD Mooney instructor? Do they even exist in Florida?
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Any decent CFI with more than 15-20 hrs in a Mooney would probably do.
 
FloridaPilot said:
Is it because Mooney's are generally faster so you have to stay 1 step ahead?



Where would you find a GOOD Mooney instructor? Do they even exist in Florida?
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dell30rb said:
Any decent CFI with more than 15-20 hrs in a Mooney would probably do.
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We were referred to a guy who was supposedly a Mooney expert, and on the first lesson he had us landing waaay too fast, like 80kts over the numbers. We fired him, contacted our old CFI who had no Mooney experience, and he agreed to study the POH and the aircraft and teach us. It went swimmingly well, and he liked the Mooney so much he bought one for himself not long after we were done with the transition.

Any good CFI who is willing to follow the POH and willing to beat you over the head with it until you're on the numbers will do well.
 
Bill Jennings said:
We were referred to a guy who was supposedly a Mooney expert, and on the first lesson he had us landing waaay too fast, like 80kts over the numbers. We fired him, contacted our old CFI who had no Mooney experience, and he agreed to study the POH and the aircraft and teach us. It went swimmingly well, and he liked the Mooney so much he bought one for himself not long after we were done with the transition.

Any good CFI who is willing to follow the POH and willing to beat you over the head with it until you're on the numbers will do well.
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Right on. There is nothing complicated about them. They have a few quirks that you can figure out in an hour of flying, that's about it. I went for my commercial checkride with 6 hrs in a J model Mooney, and I only had 300TT at the time. Its not an MU-2
 
I'm enjoying the airplane shopping part of it, (Especially due to the fact it's not my Money involved) but I'm trying to talk him into a M20C instead. From the research I've come up with: The initial costs are low, plus fuel and ownership costs are very reasonable as well. This will be his first airplane and with a J he admitted that he would be close to max budget so nothing major can happen. But you know how it is trying to talk someone out of something once their mind is made up.

I've never owned an airplane but from what I have gotten from all of you guys, (Thank you) is always have a reserve for those "Just in case" events that happen. He won't have that in a J.

In this situation a Ranger will satisfy the flying bug for a new pilot after transition training and give him the budget he needs to fly where ever he wants to and in my opinion that is what it's all about....freedom!
 
If you want to save money on a Mooney, by an F model.

The extra room and power just makes sense IMO. And the F models are usually significantly less than the J models. You lose a bit of speed but that's about it.
 
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