a couple of newbie questions

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injb

Pre-takeoff checklist
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jb
Hi, I'm a new member here just starting out ppl training. I just had my second lesson and although my instructor has been great in answering questions, there are 2 things we can't quite get to the bottom of. I wonder if anyone could shed any light on these things?:

1. I cannot feel what he refers to as "buffeting" during a stall. We did stalls on the second lesson and at first he demoed a few and asked me to call it when I felt this buffeting. Then I did a few myself. The whole thing terrified me, especially the feeling when a wing drops, but that's another story lol! Anyway, for a few seconds leading up to when he said "there's the stall", I could feel a light, high-frequency vibration in the yoke. That lasted for maybe 1.5-2 seconds, then he would call it as the nose dropped. I could not sense any change at the moment he called it, and he said that what I felt wasn't it. It was the same when I did them myself. He said that in this particular plane (a 150) it's very subtle and hard to detect. We will be doing most of the training in a 172 but we used the 150 this time because I wanted to try it. Anyway, I still think I should have been able to sense something. I usually have pretty decent mechanical sympathy, and it bothered me that I couldn't figure out what he was referring to. Hopefully it will be clearer when we do it again in the 172. Can anyone explain what it actually feels like?

2. It's physically easier to bank right than to bank left (that is, it takes less force on the yoke). My instructor says this is backwards. He said it should be easier to bank left. This is the 3rd plane I've flown in and it's the same every time. (I did 2 discovery flights at different schools, and I've tried 2 planes at this school, the 172 and 150). When I bank left I feel like I'm fighting against wind or something. When I bank right I'm always surprised at how quickly the plane leans over. My instructor draws a blank on this one. Maybe it's an illusion caused by being on the left hand side of the plane? Can anyone explain this?

If you're still with me at this point, thanks for reading!
 
I started in a C150 and I remember the same thing. Not much of a buffet. The turning thing could be lots of things. Airplane out of rig. Uneven fuel usage. Does it seem to be worse later in the flight than earlier? It could be how you are reacting to the left turning tendencies and you have a death grip on the yoke. Maybe your instructor needs to lose a few pounds, lol. Next time you're up get straight and level. Now let go of the airplane, hands off the yoke, feet off of the rudder. See what happens.
 
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1)The buffeting he is referring to and the vibration you refer to is the same thing. It is the air on top of the wing starting to separate as you increase the angle of attack. The closer to the critical angle (stall) the separation is increased and you can feel the turbulent air separating in the yoke.

2)The actual turning of the airplane left and right is essentially the same. Most students do a better job of turning left in the pattern and practicing steep turns because of the sight picture sitting in the left seat.
 
luvflyin said:
I started in a C150 and I remember the same thing. Not much of a buffet. The turning thing could be lots of things. Airplane out of rig. Uneven fuel usage. Does it seem to be worse later in the flight than earlier? It could be how you are reacting to the left turning tendencies and you have a death grip on the yoke. Maybe your instructor needs to lose a few pounds, lol. Next time you're up get straight and level. Now let go of the airplane, hands off the yoke, feet off of the rudder. See what happens.
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Well he's quite a bit taller than me and definitely weighs more. I hadn't thought of that but maybe that does have something to do with it.

Radar Contact said:
1)The buffeting he is referring to and the vibration you refer to is the same thing. It is the air on top of the wing starting to separate as you increase the angle of attack. The closer to the critical angle (stall) the separation is increased and you can feel the turbulent air separating in the yoke.

2)The actual turning of the airplane left and right is essentially the same. Most students do a better job of turning left in the pattern and practicing steep turns because of the sight picture sitting in the left seat.
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Interesting...several times I said "there's the stall" after I had felt that vibration for a second or so, and he was adamant that I was calling it too early. Maybe there is a change in it near the end that I just haven't picked up on yet.

abqtj said:
I got nothing for either of those :D Sorry.

But welcome!
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Haha no worries, thanks!
 
Right turn easier is probably perception/increased sensitivity as you turn to your blind side.

As for recognizing the buffett, that'll come as you gain experience and get over your uneasiness about stalls. At first that 1-1/2 seconds prior to the stall seems like an instant. After time it'll seem like an eternity.
 
injb said:
Interesting...several times I said "there's the stall" after I had felt that vibration for a second or so, and he was adamant that I was calling it too early. Maybe there is a change in it near the end that I just haven't picked up on yet.
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Him telling you this isn't incorrect. The start of the buffet (your vibration) is not the stall. It's the airflow separating just prior to the stall. The stall is when the wings drop.
 
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Have him demonstrate "stalled", then do it yourself, then repeat until yours 'feel' like his.

As mentioned, you're in a 150... pretty docile stall characteristics.
 
Radar Contact said:
Him telling you this isn't correct. The start of the buffet (your vibration) is not the stall. It's the airflow separating just prior to the stall. The stall is when the wings drop.
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Got it. I think what he's telling me is consistent with this - he also said that the vibration I felt was not the stall. But I think he could tell a fraction of a second before the wings dropped and he was trying to get me to pick up on it too. I'm sure it will all become clearer with time. I'm going to have to do a lot more of them regardless because they scared the hell out of me and I couldn't concentrate for the rest of the lesson!
 
injb said:
Got it. I think what he's telling me is consistent with this - he also said that the vibration I felt was not the stall. But I think he could tell a fraction of a second before the wings dropped and he was trying to get me to pick up on it too. I'm sure it will all become clearer with time. I'm going to have to do a lot more of them regardless because they scared the hell out of me and I couldn't concentrate for the rest of the lesson!
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I edited my post, meant to say "incorrect". To clarify, your instructor is right. And I agree, it will get clearer with time. Good luck.
 
injb said:
I'm going to have to do a lot more of them regardless because they scared the hell out of me and I couldn't concentrate for the rest of the lesson!
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A very normal reaction to the event because it's new to you and it does feel scary to intentionally put the aircraft into a situation where it "quits flying".

But remember the point of the instruction is to learn the proper reaction for when a stall occurs because you weren't paying attention to what was going on. You're learning how to keep the wing from dropping, and what the sight picture looks like. All of this so that if you find yourself in the same situation in the future, you know the proper reaction to recover safely.
 
There is essentially no detectable buffet in the C150. In that airplane, buffeting is an "honorable mention" as far as stall characteristics go, as it is one of the signs of a stall (in addition to the warning horn and mushy controls), but in a C150 it simply will not be detectable. Focus on control mushiness and the stall warning horn as your two primary signs of a stall.

Piston singles like your C150 and C172 have a natural tendency to yaw left in nose-high attitudes and to yaw right in nose-low attitudes. In that sense, during a climb when the airplane is in a nose-high attitude, it is technically easier to bank left. During a descent, when the airplane is in a nose-low attitude, it is technically easier to bank right. This assumes no corrective rudder input is being applied during the climb or descent.

In straight-and-level flight, there should be no yawing tendency unless the pilot is accidentally applying pressure on one of the rudder pedals, in which case the airplane will want to yaw towards the direction of the rudder input.

On the topic of rudder pedals, you should be adding a small amount of rudder pressure any time you are moving the ailerons. From the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook, p. 3-12:
The purpose of the rudder in a turn is to coordinate the turn. As lift increases, so does drag. When the pilot deflects the ailerons to bank the airplane, both lift and drag are increased on the rising wing and, simultaneously, lift and drag are decreased on the lowering wing. [Figure 3-12] This increased drag on the rising wing and decreased drag on the lowering wing results in the airplane yawing opposite to the direction of turn. To counteract this adverse yaw, rudder pressure is applied simultaneously with aileron in the desired direction of turn. This action is required to produce a coordinated turn. Coordinated flight is important to maintaining control of the airplane. Situations can develop when a pilot is flying in uncoordinated flight and depending on the flight control deflections, may support pro-spin flight control inputs. This is especially hazardous when operating at low altitudes, such as when operating in the airport traffic pattern. Pilots must learn to fly with coordinated control inputs to prevent unintentional loss of control when maneuvering in certain situations.

During uncoordinated flight, the pilot may feel that they are being pushed sideways toward the outside or inside of the turn. [Figure 3-13] A skid is when the pilot may feel that they are being pressed toward the outside of the turn and toward the inside of the turn during a slip. The ability to sense a skid or slip is developed over time and as the “feel” of flying develops, a pilot should become highly sensitive to a slip or skid without undue reliance on the flight instruments.
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Finally, if your wings are dropping during a stall, that means you are probably stalling in an uncoordinated condition. More rudder is likely needed to offset the uncoordinated condition throughout the stall entry and recovery. "Failure to maintain proper coordination with the rudder throughout the stall and recovery" is one of the most common errors made while practicing intentional stalls.
 
To try to say the same thing as others in a different way...

1. as a new student everything is buffeting and vibrating so it will take a while to learn what is normal and what isn't. aka, Stall buffet. as others have said it varies from airplane to airplane also.

2. Since you have noticed it in several different airplanes it is likely just your perception that left turns are harder. It will get better with more time and practice.


Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
injb said:
Hi, I'm a new member here just starting out ppl training. I just had my second lesson and although my instructor has been great in answering questions, there are 2 things we can't quite get to the bottom of. I wonder if anyone could shed any light on these things?:

1. I cannot feel what he refers to as "buffeting" during a stall. We did stalls on the second lesson and at first he demoed a few and asked me to call it when I felt this buffeting. Then I did a few myself. The whole thing terrified me, especially the feeling when a wing drops, but that's another story lol! Anyway, for a few seconds leading up to when he said "there's the stall", I could feel a light, high-frequency vibration in the yoke. That lasted for maybe 1.5-2 seconds, then he would call it as the nose dropped. I could not sense any change at the moment he called it, and he said that what I felt wasn't it. It was the same when I did them myself. He said that in this particular plane (a 150) it's very subtle and hard to detect. We will be doing most of the training in a 172 but we used the 150 this time because I wanted to try it. Anyway, I still think I should have been able to sense something. I usually have pretty decent mechanical sympathy, and it bothered me that I couldn't figure out what he was referring to. Hopefully it will be clearer when we do it again in the 172. Can anyone explain what it actually feels like?

2. It's physically easier to bank right than to bank left (that is, it takes less force on the yoke). My instructor says this is backwards. He said it should be easier to bank left. This is the 3rd plane I've flown in and it's the same every time. (I did 2 discovery flights at different schools, and I've tried 2 planes at this school, the 172 and 150). When I bank left I feel like I'm fighting against wind or something. When I bank right I'm always surprised at how quickly the plane leans over. My instructor draws a blank on this one. Maybe it's an illusion caused by being on the left hand side of the plane? Can anyone explain this?

If you're still with me at this point, thanks for reading!
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WELCOME to POA.
Good luck with your training.
 
The fun begins when you have try to explain to your non-pilot friends (the proverbial laymen) that a stall doesn't mean the engine stopped and you are headed for a smoking hole...

As with anything, it will get easier with experience... You'll be surprised, later in your training, when you'll feel it in your butt (seat of your pants flying)... The 150 is a real docile trainer... Enjoy!
 
welcome to POA. I did stall not to long ago and I didn't feel the buffet either, because u know the whole tin can always buffets :p
it gets whole lot easier and things starts to slow down as you do more. personally I enjoy the power off stall a hell lot more than the power on stall
its easier to turn to left for me because it hardly needs any rudder input, still trying to "feel" how much rudder is too much rudder when turning right
 
Agreed, it gets better the more you fly. Oh wow, you now have an EXCUSE to fly more, the humanity! :D

The "buffet" is just a light vibration. Some airplanes vibrate more, some less. But yes, it is light vibration. Noticeable for sure.

For the left-vs-right bank force, could it be due to different muscles required to bank different directions? As in: left triceps to bank left, left biceps to bank right. What if you use your other hand? Does that feel differently? What about both hands?
FWIW, I don't fly by gripping the yoke. She flies on her own, I just nudge her with a single finger as I need. There shouldn't be much force required to make slight corrections.

Enjoy flying!
 
IS NOBODY GOING TO SELL HIM AN AOA?!!

Welcome to POA. You will develop more touch over time. I think we were all impatient starting out and felt like we were lagging in picking up on concepts and such. It'll come with repetition.

Best of luck in your training.

(BTW, do a search for AOA threads if you're curious):rolleyes:
 
I agree with other responses here. I trained in Pipers and even having completed training I still barely feel a buffet at all since they are just so naturally stable. Your first real symptom will be mushy controls (you can moved the yoke left and right and it won't do much of anything at all) and then the stall warning horn. Keep your feet active to control the roll and keep wings level.

As for turning, I agree that it's probably a number of factors that make it feel one way or another. I still remember very vividly how much handling the plane felt different on my first solo when suddenly I didn't have this ballast weight in the right seat! This is also the reason I pressed my instructor to allow somebody to sit in the back during one of my training flights so I could feel the opposite sensation of being way more heavy than I was used to.

Good luck and welcome!!
 
I thought I had stalled a plane during ppl training... I could feel the very subtle buffeting while the stall horn was blaring. Nose down and recover. It was so benign.

Then I took my chekcride and did a couple stalls for my DPE. He said my recognition and recovery was just fine but then asked if that's as far into a stall as I'd ever been... Says let's do another one and I'll tell you when to recover... holy smokes, that pa-28 180 was shaking like crazy. I wanted to recover long before he gave me the green light to do so. It was a pretty nerve racking experience.

I learned that day that a stall comes in "stages" and different planes / wings stall differently.
 
Welcome to POA, injb!

Like others have already said, there really isn't much buffeting in a C-150 (or C-172 for that matter). I have stalled both quite a bit and rarely feel anything like a buffet. Curious why you are planning to use a C-172? The cost is usually quite a few bucks higher per hour.
 
I initially learned to fly in a C-150, which has no appreciable "buffet", nor "adverse yaw". So both of these are hard for a student to grasp, since they have no idea what that crazy instructor is talking about (btdt). When you fly in a glider, at least the ones I fly, you feel very clearly both buffet and adverse yaw, so that's a great platform for primary learning. If it were up to me, I'd require every power pilot to start out on gliders, at least past solo.
 
somorris said:
Welcome to POA, injb!

Like others have already said, there really isn't much buffeting in a C-150 (or C-172 for that matter). I have stalled both quite a bit and rarely feel anything like a buffet. Curious why you are planning to use a C-172? The cost is usually quite a few bucks higher per hour.
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The cost is quite a bit more. When I looked at what the school had in the fleet, I decided I should learn in the 150 because it seemed so much cheaper. I thought the money would be better spent on more hours. But when I asked my instructor, he said that what isn't so obvious was that you can get a lot more done in a given amount of time with the 172's 180hp compared with the 150's 80hp. He said you could probably do 12 take offs and landings in an hour in the 172, compared with maybe 6 in the 150. I thought about this and I decided that I'm more concerned with building skills than clocking up hours in the cockpit, at least for now.

Nevertheless he scheduled our next lesson with the 150 to let me see for myself, and left it up to me from that point on. But I agree with him now. It takes forever to get any altitude in the 150. And I actually found it a little more twitchy and harder to control anyway. And it's a tight squeeze in there too! To top it all off, it's a little more complicated to operate (carb heat etc.). I'd like to come back to it and master the 150 some day but I'm going to make life a little easier on myself for a while and go with the 172.
 
arkvet said:
holy smokes, that pa-28 180 was shaking like crazy. I wanted to recover long before he gave me the green light to do so. It was a pretty nerve racking experience.
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Are you saying you never experienced a real stall?
Well, you never will again because they were banned by the FAA. Since so many pilots kills themselves by not recognizing or recovering from a stall, let's not teach a stall recognition or recovery at all and nobody will die ever again. :screwy:

I hope you stalled a plane with another CFI later. It is a great fun experience. :)
 
BigBadLou said:
Are you saying you never experienced a real stall?
Well, you never will again because they were banned by the FAA. Since so many pilots kills themselves by not recognizing or recovering from a stall, let's not teach a stall recognition or recovery at all and nobody will die ever again. :screwy:

I hope you stalled a plane with another CFI later. It is a great fun experience. :)
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I heard that too that ACS doesn't require a full stall, can anyone confirm that? I can't seem to interpret the ACS. Having said that, it won't matter for me since my CFI won't let me come down unless I do full stall, when we practice stalls and I am glad for that.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
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