9mm handgun

[Alexb2000]

I thought I'd throw out another comment. We've talked a lot about carrying guns ourselves, but how do you feel about others in the general public walking around strapped?

For example:

How will you react when you're in your car with your family and some scrungy guy walks up to you while you're stuck at a light (cars in front and behind) to ask directions, you notice as he raises his arm to point that he has a poorly concealed nickel plated Desert Eagle .50, now what???

Are you in danger for your life, about to be robbed, kidnapped, murdered, etc.?

Then as you're considering the situation he reaches his hand toward his gun.

You draw first hoping to warn him off.

Seeing your gun he jumps back in surprise and tries to draw also.

You see him trying to get his gun and shoot first.

You are only 50% as good as everyone on the Internet says they are, so you put one between his eyes with the speed of a rabid cobra and the stone cold discipline that would get you an honorary membership on Seal Team 6.

Although you feel no emotion in the action hero tradition, your family around you is screaming and crying.

Later you're feeling pretty good about defending your family, doing what you had to do, taking care of business, showing some punk what's up, bustin' a cap in his ass, smokin some zero, etc.

Then the police show up and you find out he was a law abiding citizen, who worked nights in a bad part of town as a truck mechanic, so he also had a concealed weapon permit for protection. He was running late after work and trying to find directions to his disabled daughters dance recital. He was really reaching for the flyer with the address in his pocket, which just happened to be next to his weapon, but it's too late for that now.

How will you really know about anyone before its too late one way or the other?

 

[jesse]

I thought I'd throw out another comment. We've talked a lot about carrying guns ourselves, but how do you feel about others in the general public walking around strapped?

For example:

How will you react when you're in your car with your family and some scrungy guy walks up to you while you're stuck at a light (cars in front and behind) to ask directions, you notice as he raises his arm to point that he has a poorly concealed nickel plated Desert Eagle .50, now what???

Are you in danger for your life, about to be robbed, kidnapped, murdered, etc.?

Then as you're considering the situation he reaches his hand toward his gun.

You draw first hoping to warn him off.

Seeing your gun he jumps back in surprise and tries to draw also.

You see him trying to get his gun and shoot first.

You are only 50% as good as everyone on the Internet says they are, so you put one between his eyes with the speed of a rabid cobra and the stone cold discipline that would get you an honorary membership on Seal Team 6.

Although you feel no emotion in the action hero tradition, your family around you is screaming and crying.

Later you're feeling pretty good about defending your family, doing what you had to do, taking care of business, showing some punk what's up, bustin' a cap in his ass, smokin some zero, etc.

Then the police show up and you find out he was a law abiding citizen, who worked nights in a bad part of town as a truck mechanic, so he also had a concealed weapon permit for protection. He was running late after work and trying to find directions to his disabled daughters dance recital. He was really reaching for the flyer with the address in his pocket, which just happened to be next to his weapon, but it's too late for that now.

How will you really know about anyone before its too late one way or the other?

lmfao. Your story is just ridiculous and that doesn't happen. Just seeing a gun only freaks those out that aren't comfortable around firearms. If I see a poorly concealed firearm I'm sure the hell not about to shoot the guy. In fact, in Nebraska, it's perfectly legal for any average joe to open carry a handgun.

Intent can be pretty easily detected based on body language.

 

[jesse]

I picked up a Taurus PT790 slim in 9mm this weekend. I'm hoping that it'll be a good balance between my Sig P238 (380) and my Springfield XD40 (40S&W). The Sig is super easy to carry but I don't like 380 that much. The Springfield isn't that difficult to carry but limits my clothing options.

The Slim is actually slimmer than my Sig. Size comparisons, left to right, Sig P238, Taurus PT90 Slim, Springfield XD40SC:
http://jesseangell.com/forums/lineup/

I haven't shot it yet - so no idea if it works worth a crap - and of course like any firearm you Google people have had problems. But plenty of people also say they've shot thousands of rounds through theirs without an issue. So we'll see.

 

[denverpilot]

How will you react when you're in your car with your family and some scrungy guy walks up to you while you're stuck at a light (cars in front and behind) to ask directions, you notice as he raises his arm to point that he has a poorly concealed nickel plated Desert Eagle .50, now what???

Anyone who wasted that much money on a gun and then tried to conceal such a huge handgun is a moron, first off. So they're likely not much threat. Ever tried to draw something that big quickly?

Also anyone legally concealed carrying knows that not concealing properly is essentially "brandishing" under current law and doesn't do it. Allowing the weapon to show is effectively considered "threatening" to others under many State's statutes.

So the little story is already blown. But we'll play along.

Are you in danger for your life, about to be robbed, kidnapped, murdered, etc.?

Then as you're considering the situation he reaches his hand toward his gun.

"Move your hand away from that [rediculous cartoon sized] hand-cannon and back off! I'm armed."

Warning first. Loud and clear.

You draw first hoping to warn him off.

You don't draw to "brandish". If you draw, you shoot. You'd better be willing to go to jail for a long time over it.

Seeing your gun he jumps back in surprise and tries to draw also.

He would not see my gun, and it's likely the first shot would be through the door. But as I said, seeing a freakin' Desert Eagle stuffed in his pants isn't exactly going to worry me. He has to quickly draw that thing he's more likely to blow his foot off than get it leveled in my general direction.

You see him trying to get his gun and shoot first.

He's made so many really stupid mistakes up to this point if I had a car full of witnesses and the car behind that saw him reach, it'll be a sorry day at his funeral but it won't be mine.

You are only 50% as good as everyone on the Internet says they are, so you put one between his eyes with the speed of a rabid cobra and the stone cold discipline that would get you an honorary membership on Seal Team 6.

Not happening. Headshots are difficult. Everyone who fires for defense goes for center mass. Depending on the distance, a car door to the head also is damned effective and far less likely to end up with me in the slammer for the night.

Although you feel no emotion in the action hero tradition, your family around you is screaming and crying.

Yeah mostly because we didn't have ear protection on. We won't hear well for a few hours and could have permanent hearing loss.

Later you're feeling pretty good about defending your family, doing what you had to do, taking care of business, showing some punk what's up, bustin' a cap in his ass, smokin some zero, etc.

Now the story is really off in never-never-land. No one sane feels good about shooting someone. And you'll be hanging out at the local lockdown while the Police corroborate your story.

You'll probably go bankrupt defending yourself even if the shooting is considered justified by a jury of your peers. You'll likely be charged with 1st Degree Manslaughter at a bare minimum. You will be arrested prior to that. No matter how clean the shoot looks to the on-scene cops, witnesses, etc.

No one who carries legally takes drawing lightly. And you draw because you're in imminent danger. Him reaching for the cannon unless he wraps his hand around it and pulls, isn't imminent danger. With the verbal warning he'd stop if he had good intentions and keep his hands where they could be seen, extended.

Then the police show up and you find out he was a law abiding citizen, who worked nights in a bad part of town as a truck mechanic, so he also had a concealed weapon permit for protection. He was running late after work and trying to find directions to his disabled daughters dance recital. He was really reaching for the flyer with the address in his pocket, which just happened to be next to his weapon, but it's too late for that now.

How will you really know about anyone before its too late one way or the other?

No one I've met who can produce a real concealed carry permit would have done any of those things. They take their own life and Freedom too seriously.

When the police show up they're not going to tell you ANYTHING about the guy. You'll learn all about his sob story from your lawyer, later. In jail. You're arrested and separated from your family. Your stories better jive.

Your story is broken. I only bothered replying to say that really.

Note Jesse's comments about how difficult it is to conceal his "normal sized" (my words) 9mm.

People who carry are pretty serious about not giving away that they're carrying, for all sorts of reasons. Acting like a badass with a bulge showing is more likely a way to attract trouble than to avoid it, for one.

The whole story is laughable. His "disabled" daughter's dance recital. Had to throw the tear-jerker in there, right? LOL!

In the real world, anyone who carries and gets forced to shoot is going to be sitting in their jail cell that night saying to their lawyer, "I wish that dumbass didn't make me do it. I really do."

But they're not going to draw just because they saw a cannon in his pants. He'd be walking funny just from the weight.

Realistically a real bad guy would be brandishing some rediculous weapon on their way to the vehicle to look like a badass or they'd just shoot you from their jacket pocket with something small.

Talk to some real folks who carry and have had to use it. None are particularly happy about the experience. But none will have anything like this silly story either.

 

[Steve Foley]

I thought I'd throw out another comment. We've talked a lot about carrying guns ourselves, but how do you feel about others in the general public walking around strapped?

For example:

How will you react when you're in your car with your family and some scrungy guy walks up to you while you're stuck at a light (cars in front and behind) to ask directions, you notice as he raises his arm to point that he has a poorly concealed nickel plated Desert Eagle .50, now what???

that's when you say "nice gun. How's the recoil on that thing?

 

[Morne]

that's when you say "nice gun. How's the recoil on that thing?

Bingo.

Guns don't freak me, freaks do. And no, simple appearance is not enough to determine "freakines". It is a manner of acting, certain cues and that nagging little voice in your head.

 

[Alexb2000]

DenverPilot-

I was just trying to throw a little humor in there, obviously not very good humor, but still an attempt. I didn't mean to dissect it as a perfect literal scenario, but the question is still valid.

How do you feel about everyone else carrying a gun?

Part of the story was adapted from my trip to the store yesterday: I walked up to an older ladies car (she had just got in) to tell her she left the cart behind her car, she hits the locks, backs out quickly hitting the cart, and takes off. Looking at her she was obviously afraid. Over reaction or not, I'm glad she wasn't boxed in and armed.

Steve-

Ha, ha, in real life you probably wouldn't be afraid at all. There is no way someone could afford enough practice bullets to be able to hit anything, even if they gave the gun away.

 

[Anthony]

How do you feel about everyone else carrying a gun?

Great, if they are carrying legally, not so great if they are a criminal and carrying illegaly. Since criminals will carry whatever they want, whenever they want, I feel safer if some of the people out there are legally armed and can defend themselves and their families.


I wonder if Ken (the OP) made a decision on what to buy? There have been some great suggestions, between the OT stuff.

 

[airbornejohnny]

Reading the story, then it's actual event upon which it was based, the old lady did exactly what I was going to suggest- forget pulling and endangering your family, drive the hell away! If there is another vehicle in front of you that would negate such an option, honk the horn, lean on it, cause a scene. If the guy had intended bad things, he would likely reconsider his "plan" when people in the surrounding area are alerted to some crazy driver/horn-blowing moron. Think and avoid...

@Jesse- those are some nice pieces! Post up or PM me about the taurus after you put it through its paces. My next firearm purchase I am planning on is for something more concealable than my 1911...

 

[denverpilot]

I was just trying to throw a little humor in there, obviously not very good humor, but still an attempt.

Sorry, with having talked to people who really think your scenario is how things go down and are rabid anti-gun folk, I'm a little humor-impaired on the topic.

How do you feel about everyone else carrying a gun?

With proper training, sure. It's difficult to instill proper respect for firearms in some people though. So "everyone" wouldn't pass the class.

Part of the story was adapted from my trip to the store yesterday: I walked up to an older ladies car (she had just got in) to tell her she left the cart behind her car, she hits the locks, backs out quickly hitting the cart, and takes off. Looking at her she was obviously afraid. Over reaction or not, I'm glad she wasn't boxed in and armed.

At least she wouldn't have likely been able to aim worth a damn if she's that panicy in a parking lot in broad daylight.

In regards to having grown up knowing about firearms, and respecting them...

Dad recounts a story about the time he pulled an outside watch in Norfolk while in port once. Brand new butter bar walks up and asks him if his sidearm is loaded and chambered. Dad says no.

Butterbar decides to dress him down as an example. Dad draws the weapon (butterbar's eyes get big), pops out the magazine, proves the chamber is clear by racking it back and showing it, and hands the weapon to the Butterbar...

"If you're planning on shooting anyone on a Naval base in Virginia today, let me know now so I can take Sick Call, because my tour is up in a couple of weeks and I don't plan on extending it by shooting anybody."

Butterbar was ****ed. Section Chief calmed him down after he sent for him and winked at my dad as he verbally chided him and handed back the weapon.

 

[Len Lanetti]

Ken,

Ruger SR9 is nice, feeds anything, inexpensive, more accurate than I am and the trigger on the newest ones is better than the ones from a few years ago.

Len

 

[Anthony]

Ken,

Ruger SR9 is nice, feeds anything, inexpensive, more accurate than I am and the trigger on the newest ones is better than the ones from a few years ago.

Len

Holy crap!

Len,

How have you been, where have you been??? Great to see you here!

 

[gkainz]

Holy crap!

Len,

How have you been, where have you been??? Great to see you here!

X100!!!! Hey, Len!

 

[Len Lanetti]

Anthony,

I'm good. Family is good. I've been busy. I see Jesse is still alive. That's a surprise. :<)

Len

 

[Len Lanetti]

Sorry...maybe I had my J names mixed up maybe I meant Jason.

Len

 

[Anthony]

Anthony,

I'm good. Family is good. I've been busy. I see Jesse is still alive. That's a surprise. :<)

Len

That's great to hear Len! I'm back in the area, so if you can take a breath we'll have to get together.

 

[jesse]

@Jesse- those are some nice pieces! Post up or PM me about the taurus after you put it through its paces. My next firearm purchase I am planning on is for something more concealable than my 1911...

I put about 150 rounds through it yesterday. It functioned perfectly with all the ammo I tried. It shoots pretty nice, but it's not a target pistol. It's pretty light so it has a bit of bite for a 9mm but nothing significant. I'm pleased with it for the purpose of 9mm CCW.

The below target was shot at 12 ft with approx 1 second between each shot. The head shots were made with my Sig P238 and the center mass shots with the Taurus slim.

I was also able to shoot 8 rounds of the 9mm into the above target from 40 ft with 1 second between each round. The group was much larger, but all landed in section A or C.

I can actually shoot the Sig P238 more accurately even though it's a smaller gun because the sights are larger and it has a better trigger. But I can shoot the Taurus plenty good enough and I'm way more confident in 9mm. The Sig also has a tendency to have a lot of FTE(s). I may send it back to them.

 

[airbornejohnny]

I put about 150 rounds through it yesterday. It functioned perfectly with all the ammo I tried. It shoots pretty nice, but it's not a target pistol. It's pretty light so it has a bit of bite for a 9mm but nothing significant. I'm pleased with it for the purpose of 9mm CCW.

The below target was shot at 12 ft with approx 1 second between each shot. The head shots were made with my Sig P238 and the center mass shots with the Taurus slim.



I was also able to shoot 8 rounds of the 9mm into the above target from 40 ft with 1 second between each round. The group was much larger, but all landed in section A or C.

I can actually shoot the Sig P238 more accurately even though it's a smaller gun because the sights are larger and it has a better trigger. But I can shoot the Taurus plenty good enough and I'm way more confident in 9mm. The Sig also has a tendency to have a lot of FTE(s). I may send it back to them.

Yeah the center mass group looks a lot better than the head shot group. Have you put many rounds through the sig? Or possibly a lot of +P (maybe extractor is wearing out more quickly than it should)? I'm no gunsmith, but that just seems odd, especially from sig; my impression is they are pretty reliable/nuke proof.
Either way, that taurus is on my "considerations" list. Thanks for the report!

 

[jesse]

Yeah the center mass group looks a lot better than the head shot group. Have you put many rounds through the sig? Or possibly a lot of +P (maybe extractor is wearing out more quickly than it should)? I'm no gunsmith, but that just seems odd, especially from sig; my impression is they are pretty reliable/nuke proof.
Either way, that taurus is on my "considerations" list. Thanks for the report!

I've put about 3-400 rounds through the Sig and it's always had issues with extracting. I also had the recoil spring break in the first 50 rounds. It used to only FTEon the last round, and since I only carry one magazine, I didn't care. Yesterday it was happening on the 2nd round.

I've yet to find a gun chambered in 380 that is reliable and I've tried:
Keltec P3AT
Ruger LCP
Sig P238

The lack of reliability in 380 autos is what is causing me to desire 9mm for carry.
I'll probably call Sig up and send it back and see if they can make it right.

 

[airbornejohnny]

I've put about 3-400 rounds through the Sig and it's always had issues with extracting. I also had the recoil spring break in the first 50 rounds. It used to only FTEon the last round, and since I only carry one magazine, I didn't care. Yesterday it was happening on the 2nd round.

I've yet to find a gun chambered in 380 that is reliable and I've tried:
Keltec P3AT
Ruger LCP
Sig P238

The lack of reliability in 380 autos is what is causing me to desire 9mm for carry.
I'll probably call Sig up and send it back and see if they can make it right.

Ruger (I think) recently came out with a .380 that was reviewed in Shooting Illustrated, and fared very well. Aside from that, a friend who is a retired LEO has always carried his PPk and loves/swears by it.
To each their own, but IMO 9mm is the minimal way to go. I have never shot .380, but for nominal difference in size and capacity 9mm is a step up in performance.

 

[Ghery]

I've yet to find a gun chambered in 380 that is reliable and I've tried:
Keltec P3AT
Ruger LCP
Sig P238

The lack of reliability in 380 autos is what is causing me to desire 9mm for carry.
I'll probably call Sig up and send it back and see if they can make it right.

Try a Bersa Thunder 380. My son has one (with a laser sight) and I have the concealed carry version. Quite reliable. The BT380cc is no target pistol, but it goes BANG! when I pull the trigger and it hides in my pocket quite nicely.

 

[Frank Browne]

Also anyone legally concealed carrying knows that not concealing properly is essentially "brandishing" under current law and doesn't do it. Allowing the weapon to show is effectively considered "threatening" to others under many State's statutes.

True, but...

Many jurisdictions take into account the basic difference between inadvertent "printing" and brandishing. As they should. Here in Fla it's common for those guilty of inadvertent printing to be met with 'go forth and sin no more'. Brandishing however will definitely lead to jail time.

You don't draw to "brandish". If you draw, you shoot. You'd better be willing to go to jail for a long time over it.

Not always. If you draw and the threat immediately retreats, you might want to consider not pulling the trigger.

No one sane feels good about shooting someone.

No doubt.

And you'll be hanging out at the local lockdown while the Police corroborate your story.

Again, it depends on the jurisdiction.

You'll probably go bankrupt defending yourself even if the shooting is considered justified by a jury of your peers. You'll likely be charged with 1st Degree Manslaughter at a bare minimum. You will be arrested prior to that. No matter how clean the shoot looks to the on-scene cops, witnesses, etc.

See above

No one who carries legally takes drawing lightly. And you draw because you're in imminent danger.

Absolutely!

Him reaching for the cannon unless he wraps his hand around it and pulls, isn't imminent danger. With the verbal warning he'd stop if he had good intentions and keep his hands where they could be seen, extended.

Waiting for someone to respond to such a command before beginning your own draw may be too late.

People who carry are pretty serious about not giving away that they're carrying, for all sorts of reasons. Acting like a badass with a bulge showing is more likely a way to attract trouble than to avoid it, for one.

True that!

In the real world, anyone who carries and gets forced to shoot is going to be sitting in their jail cell that night saying to their lawyer, "I wish that dumbass didn't make me do it. I really do."

Either in jail or at home. Either way, it's better than being dead.

But they're not going to draw just because they saw a cannon in his pants. He'd be walking funny just from the weight.

Realistically a real bad guy would be brandishing some rediculous weapon on their way to the vehicle to look like a badass or they'd just shoot you from their jacket pocket with something small.

There are other behavioral actions than just brandishing that a potential bad guy might be displaying prior to committing a crime. Waiting for those particular ones to manifest may be waiting too late.

 

[wabower]

My personal favorite defense gun has always been a Beretta Jetfire in 22 short. I have carried it for many years including while hiking. I never leave without it in my pocket. Of course the first rule when hiking in the wilderness is to use the "Buddy System". This means you NEVER hike alone, you bring a friend, companion or even family. I remember one time while hiking with my friend in northern Alberta out of nowhere came this huge brown bear charging us and was she mad. We must have been near one of her cubs. Anyway, if I had not had my little Jetfire I would not be here today. Just one shot to my friend’s knee cap and I was able to escape by just walking at a brisk pace

 

[airbornejohnny]

My personal favorite defense gun has always been a Beretta Jetfire in 22 short. I have carried it for many years including while hiking. I never leave without it in my pocket. Of course the first rule when hiking in the wilderness is to use the "Buddy System". This means you NEVER hike alone, you bring a friend, companion or even family. I remember one time while hiking with my friend in northern Alberta out of nowhere came this huge brown bear charging us and was she mad. We must have been near one of her cubs. Anyway, if I had not had my little Jetfire I would not be here today. Just one shot to my friend’s knee cap and I was able to escape by just walking at a brisk pace

Although we have never met, I will NEVER go hiking with you.

 

[Bob Noel]

My personal favorite defense gun has always been a Beretta Jetfire in 22 short. I have carried it for many years including while hiking. I never leave without it in my pocket. Of course the first rule when hiking in the wilderness is to use the "Buddy System". This means you NEVER hike alone, you bring a friend, companion or even family. I remember one time while hiking with my friend in northern Alberta out of nowhere came this huge brown bear charging us and was she mad. We must have been near one of her cubs. Anyway, if I had not had my little Jetfire I would not be here today. Just one shot to my friend’s knee cap and I was able to escape by just walking at a brisk pace

And then there is the story of the crew commander talking to his new young navigator. The commander places his .45 on the table and tells the nav that the .45 is for navs that get him lost. The nav pulls out his 9mm and says "I'll know we're lost before you will."

 

[airbornejohnny]

And then there is the story of the crew commander talking to his new young navigator. The commander places his .45 on the table and tells the nav that the .45 is for navs that get him lost. The nav pulls out his 9mm and says "I'll know we're lost before you will."