731NR

WWFeldman

WWFeldman

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Nov 11, 2019
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WWFeldman
I'm sure we all remember our favorite bravo buster. Friend of mine sent me this link today, https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/faa-records-for-n731nr-97015/

Looks like someone requested his FAA records under the FOIA. Unless I missed something, apparently he didn't have anything done to him over entering class B without clearance and then arguing with ATC.

I'm all for cutting people slack when they deserve it, but this guy was not only breaking the rules, but argumentative about it when called out on it. What say you all?
 
I just looked over the link you posted. There is a letter stating the request was denied because of an ongoing investigation.
 
TrueCourse said:
I just looked over the link you posted. There is a letter stating the request was denied because of an ongoing investigation.
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I looked back over it, and finally saw the one you mentioned, somehow missed it before. Thanks.

They sure don't get in a hurry do they?
 
If y'all get a chance list to the telephone recording between the pilot and the shift supervisor. He describes some extenuating circumstances (sick daughter in back, need to avoid terrain).

It's clear the supe was not impressed by how the controller handled the situation either. I suspect the way this will be (or has been) settled is that both the controller and the pilot will be counseled respectively on what they could have done to prevent the situation.
 
Not buying the sick daughter excuse. Both pilot and atc handled the situation poorly. He was the one that escalated the situation to where the ATC got flustered/put off by his response. She should have vectored him out after he refused. If he had a sick passenger he should have explained the situation to ATC better or at all. Instead he immediately gets defensive and then combative. ATC is trying to direct traffic and Mr Wachner regardless of a possible misunderstanding says to hell with you I'm doing what I want. Other pilots chimed in calling him for what he was. It should have gone 1NR, please exit the Bravo. I thought I was cleared, I have an ill 6 year old on board. Is there any way you can vector me through? ATC either turns him around or gives him a better heading. He never said he was unable to exit the Bravo due to terrain like he told the supervisor. He just flat out refused.
 
Racerx said:
Not buying the sick daughter excuse. Both pilot and atc handled the situation poorly. He was the one that escalated the situation to where the ATC got flustered/put off by his response. She should have vectored him out after he refused. If he had a sick passenger he should have explained the situation to ATC better or at all. Instead he immediately gets defensive and then combative. ATC is trying to direct traffic and Mr Wachner regardless of a possible misunderstanding says to hell with you I'm doing what I want. Other pilots chimed in calling him for what he was. It should have gone 1NR, please exit the Bravo. I thought I was cleared, I have an ill 6 year old on board. Is there any way you can vector me through? ATC either turns him around or gives him a better heading. He never said he was unable to exit the Bravo due to terrain like he told the supervisor. He just flat out refused.
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Agreed, both parties could have done better.
 
WWFeldman said:
I looked back over it, and finally saw the one you mentioned, somehow missed it before. Thanks.

They sure don't get in a hurry do they?
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COVID and actually wanting to engage in a proper investigation, so any course of action they take will be supported.
 
I take ATC's side on this one. There is no room for anti-authority in the Bravo. If he needed priority handling he should've said it.
 
Yeah, this whole sick daughter thing sounds like so much after action excuse making. He could have declared, he could have said he has a medical emergency, heck he could have said all sorts of things. I wish there was a portal where we could interject and tell the FAA to shove one up this guy's six. He's a danger to us all and I don't want to share the sky with him. I know the FAA is trying to do the whole kinder gentler thing but there is a time to make an example. I wonder if they're aware of how much exposure this has in the pilot community.
 
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Brad Z said:
It's clear the supe was not impressed by how the controller handled the situation either. I suspect the way this will be (or has been) settled is that both the controller and the pilot will be counseled respectively on what they could have done to prevent the situation.
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Honestly I'm not sure why. I didn't hear anything that I didn't find out of line. She was far better to him than a lot of NY approach controllers are to good pilots on a good day (and I like NY approach, by the way).

Pilot deserved to have the book thrown at him.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Honestly I'm not sure why. I didn't hear anything that I didn't find out of line. She was far better to him than a lot of NY approach controllers are to good pilots on a good day (and I like NY approach, by the way).

Pilot deserved to have the book thrown at him.
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For starters, she let him wander into bravo and didn't kick him out until he was well inside. When an aircraft is approaching your airspace and the destination is on the opposite side, it's obvious that they're going to need to descend at some point. She didn't take the high road when he became argumentative. She didn't offer a heading or instruction to resolve the issue. Yeah, he was a jerk, but she is paid to problem solve, and she didn't offer him any useful solutions other than to just leave.
 
Brad Z said:
For starters, she let him wander into bravo and didn't kick him out until he was well inside. When an aircraft is approaching your airspace and the destination is on the opposite side, it's obvious that they're going to need to descend at some point. She didn't take the high road when he became argumentative. She didn't offer a heading or instruction to resolve the issue. Yeah, he was a jerk, but she is paid to problem solve, and she didn't offer him any useful solutions other than to just leave.
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I agree, both parties are at fault here - the controller equally so in my opinion.

I am not a controller, but I am in the industry and the priority should have been put on maintaining safety and flow than bickering on frequency. A controller letting an aircraft enter their airspace uncleared, without prompting the aircraft before hand, is guilty of a bust the same as losing separation between aircraft. Some radar systems do have alerts that look for "intruders" the same way they calculate conflicts and low altitude alerts.

I wonder if the controller's reaction was partly due to knowing they were up for paperwork too.
 
steingar said:
Yeah, this whole sick daughter thing sounds like so much after action excuse making. He could have declared, he could have said he has a medical emergency, heck he could have said all sorts of things. I wish there was a portal where we could interject and tell the FAA to shove one up this guy's six. He's a danger to us all and I don't want to share the sky with him. I know the FAA is trying to do the whole kinder gentler thing but there is a time to make an example. I wonder if they're aware of how much exposure this has in the pilot community.
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