360 on Downwind

AuntPeggy

AuntPeggy

Final Approach
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My local control tower (HPN) requests 360s on downwind from GA aircraft. I don't like to do it because they are disorienting. The first one is bad enough, the second one right after it is nearly always difficult and forget about the third, I have passed my workload limit. I once suggested that I could reduce speed for spacing and was told that was unacceptable. 360s are what they use for spacing.

I clipped this from The Impossible Turn thread:
jesse said:
Actually . I personally don't do a 360 basically ever because I don't like putting my back at a target poweroff.
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On one occasion, when the second 360 was requested, I just asked to leave the pattern and the class D because I knew it just wouldn't work.

What else can be done in this very busy airspace?
 
360s are an easy maneuver if not rushed or unstable. If you're becoming disoriented, you may be trying to turn too steep. Keep your rate of turn to a standard rate so a full turn will take two minutes. Make use of the Turn Coordinator and the Heading Indicator while maintaining a level altitude until continued to land. Keep yourself coordinated with rudder and the turn will be smoother. With that, you shouldn't have any sense of disorientation.

If the controller asks for a "quick 360" still make it standard rate. If he/she wants you to speed up the turn after you're in it, declare "Unable." Maybe they will work things out differently or rearrange sequential spacing on future approaches.

But, the key factors... standard rate and ball centered.
 
Have you called/visited the tower to talk to them about this? Might be enlightening. I always recommend slow flight for spacing, but at your airport traffic might not allow it.

You did turns about a point for your private checkride...did you get disoriented and still pass? :goofy: If you go for a commercial checkride you will be expected to do two 360's back-to-back with a reversal of direction.

Bob Gardner
 
Do you have a heading bug? If so why not set it to your downwind heading?
 
I don't like to do a 360 power off meaning that I don't want to put my back at a landing target if at all possible when the engine isn't turning. Perhaps I'm not that great of a glider pilot--I just find that I can accomplish the same thing without pointing the airplane completely in the wrong direction.

Now, when it comes to doing a 360 on downwind, have you tried looking out the window? Not to sound harsh--but I've seen way too many pilots that just look at their turn coordinator and try to turn standard-rate and then end up getting way confused.

Screw the turn coordinator and the other instruments, look out the window, pick a target on the ground and keep the airplane going in a circle around it. It's hard to get disoriented when you're doing the turns based on ground references.
 
jesse said:
Now, when it comes to doing a 360 on downwind, have you tried looking out the window? Not to sound harsh--but I've seen way too many pilots that just look at their turn coordinator and try to turn standard-rate and then end up getting way confused.
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I do the 360s looking out the window and really don't like losing sight of the runway while on downwind. I'm always concerned (since we have crossing runways, but not at 90*) about getting too close or too far away or lining back up on the wrong one. I'm also concerned about maintaining altitude. I do glance at the heading indicator, but am more concerned about watching out the window. Knowing there is another airplane out there that is close enough to require the maneuver also makes me nervous, too.
 
I'd rather do anything else - S turns, slow flight, yo-yo. Doing a 360 when you KNOW there's traffic somewhere near just seems stupid to me. We do clearing turns before manuevers to ensure there isn't traffic nearby, yet ATC wants us to circle in the pattern?

Never been asked, but I think I'd say "unable, will give you a speed change or an s-turn"

Going to visit with the tower's a good idea, and talk it through with a supervisor, too.
 
AuntPeggy said:
I do the 360s looking out the window and really don't like losing sight of the runway while on downwind. I'm always concerned (since we have crossing runways, but not at 90*) about getting too close or too far away or lining back up on the wrong one.
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Understandable--The important thing is to pick a point on the ground and maintain the same track around it. That way you don't have to worry about getting blown where you shouldn't be.

I could count on one hand how many times I've been asked to do a 360 at a controlled field.
 
I've been asked once at a class Delta (KILG) for a Citation that was going to arrive about the same time as me. I was landing on 19 and the jet on 27, I pretty much picked a point and did a standard rate turn. Upon getting back on final I ran the checklist and landed.

I have also been no. 1 to land with a jet coming in and the jet was sent on the down wind for another runway so I could continue inbound. The tower folks at KILG are pretty good about keeping the balance.

I was holding short last week waiting to depart on 19 as a flight of two L-29's taxied behind me towards the end of the runway. We both were holding for a lost pilot trying to get into ILG with all the haze. I was watching her circle less then 5 miles from the runway. When she got squared away landed and cleared the runway I was cleared to take off first and given the option for my turn out. I tried to help by turning out east since I heard both jets wanted a west departure. The tower and the flight thanked me. It all works out.
 
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AuntPeggy said:
I do the 360s looking out the window and really don't like losing sight of the runway while on downwind. I'm always concerned (since we have crossing runways, but not at 90*) about getting too close or too far away or lining back up on the wrong one. I'm also concerned about maintaining altitude. I do glance at the heading indicator, but am more concerned about watching out the window. Knowing there is another airplane out there that is close enough to require the maneuver also makes me nervous, too.
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Since a 360 on downwind is normally used to sequence you behind a plane on final, the other plane shouldn't present much of a threat.
 
kkoran said:
Since a 360 on downwind is normally used to sequence you behind a plane on final, the other plane shouldn't present much of a threat.
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"Shouldn't" is the critical word here... I have learned that Tower should not take over seeing and avoiding when I am in the pattern VFR, so I don't like the idea of doing a 360 on any leg.
They do not always see everything, nor do they always judge spacing and time perfectly. Anyone who's ever found themselves in conflict, or nearly so, after giving the tower more responsibility than they should knows what I mean. :rolleyes:

But that's just my take on it (in short, I don't like it)- they may have a good reason to not want slow flight and S-turns in the pattern; a reason that's very sensible.

So if I were in Peggy's place, I'd most likely just practice my 360s a lot... it's certainly not un-doable or wildly unsafe, scan-wise. Just awkward.
 
In towered space.. (Class D) you need to be able to do what the controller "asks". A 360 can be standard.. but if he's got more than just you on the downwind, he's going to have to spin everyone.. not a good plan.

Easiest is to extend the downwind leg. That is the normal operation here.. "tower calls your base turn".. Based on local airspace configurations that may not be possible. It is not possible for us when downwind is a southerly heading as Class B is within 3nm.

At non towered airports.. we do not recommened downwind 360s for our glider operations to loose altitude or spacing.. you never know when a "nordo" glider is behind you that you will turn into and screw up his spacing/planning.

Fly your pattern, plan your own spacing.. and if someone is infront of you.. where will you land if they do not roll clear? We do have alternate landing areas on the airport.
 
KennyFlys said:
360s are an easy maneuver if not rushed or unstable. If you're becoming disoriented, you may be trying to turn too steep. Keep your rate of turn to a standard rate so a full turn will take two minutes.

<snip>

But, the key factors... standard rate and ball centered.
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I agree the common thing I see students do is rush this turn. Controllers typically expect standard rate turns. So when they ask for a 360 they are expecting it to take 2 minutes.


If you rush it you my just have to do another one.

Brian
 
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jesse said:
I could count on one hand how many times I've been asked to do a 360 at a controlled field.
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I can count on no hands! This seems really bizarre to me. It seems much safer (and easier) to just extend the downwind.
 
jesse said:
I could count on one hand how many times I've been asked to do a 360 at a controlled field.
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Same here. I think I've been asked for a 360 2-3 times, and a 270 turn to base once. Usually, though, if there's a traffic issue at the home drome they ask me to extend my downwind, which would seem to be a much better option for Peggy.

AuntPeggy said:
I do the 360s looking out the window and really don't like losing sight of the runway while on downwind. I'm always concerned (since we have crossing runways, but not at 90*) about getting too close or too far away or lining back up on the wrong one. I'm also concerned about maintaining altitude. I do glance at the heading indicator, but am more concerned about watching out the window. Knowing there is another airplane out there that is close enough to require the maneuver also makes me nervous, too.
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Hmm. The "nervous" part is what's getting you here, I think.

When you do the 360, you aren't yet close to another airplane. If you did not do the 360, you would eventually end up close to another airplane.

Do you know which particular component of the situation makes you nervous, and why? It might be a good exercise to just go out and do some turns around a point away from an airport, and then maybe go to a non-busy uncontrolled field and try doing a 360 on downwind (staying on the radio with your intentions of course, and watching out for traffic and all other prudent-pilot activities :yes:). Heck, it may be nothing more than navigating through a 360 to the right, because it's a lot harder to see the ground on that side. For that reason, a faster 360 (maybe 30 degrees of bank) might be better than a slower one.

This would actually be a good question for your CFI as well.
 
I can't recall ever being asked to do a 360 on downwind, but I know that I have done them on occasion on final, either because I was asked or because I asked them. In the cases where I asked them it was in order to lose altitude. If I was in Peggy's situation, though, I think I would go out and practice 360s until I was more comfortable with them. I'm in the camp that thinks you ought to be looking mostly outside instead of at the turn coordinator, and be a little bit steeper than a standard rate turn, perhaps 20-30 degrees or so.
 
TMetzinger said:
I'd rather do anything else - S turns, slow flight, yo-yo. Doing a 360 when you KNOW there's traffic somewhere near just seems stupid to me. We do clearing turns before manuevers to ensure there isn't traffic nearby, yet ATC wants us to circle in the pattern?
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When doing a 360, at least in a high-wing airplane, you are turning toward your blind spot. Granted, at a towered airport, you are getting traffic separation from the controller, but I agree that extending a downwind is preferable to doing 360 turns.

A quick story--I was flying an airplane with a dead transonder to the avionics shop located inside the mode-C ring around Philly. I looked up the FARs to make sure this was allowed, and found that with permission from ATC, I could enter. When Philly approach could finally hear my radio transmissions, I was right at the boundary. They told me to stand by, so while waiting for their permission, I decided to do turns around a point. After about 5 or 6 turns, I came around looking right at the side of a low-wing Piper travelling in a straight line toward me, just slightly below my altitude. I assume that he saw me, and figured that I wasn't a factor, but I'll never know for sure. There was probably more separation than it seemed, but it was too close for my comfort.

In thinking about this afterwards, I should have flown racetrack patterns. That way, I would have some wings-level time to look for traffic.
________
essential vaaapp
 
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Peggy, if you're not comfortable doing the 360 don't let them bully you. State "unable," and they'll find another solution. Either slow flight, s-turns, or they'll move someone else, but don't ever feel that they have the right to force you to do something you're not comfortable with.

Remember, you're the Pilot in Command, they have the luxury of watching from up a mile away with binoculars.

Now, personally, I do 360s without a problem in this situation, just making sure that I keep my eyes open for traffic (and also at the ground...you should only lose sight of the runway for about 15 seconds in a 172).

Again, if that's not comfortable, say "unable" and the controller will figure it out. Its technically his fault anyways for letting the pattern become too tight.
 
BillTIZ said:
...Easiest is to extend the downwind leg....
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Not necessarily. If the controller extends your downwind to follow a faster aircraft (say, a jet), he'll end up with a lot of space between you and the aircraft ahead, and have to make a have to do something to delay any faster aircraft sequenced behind you. Very inefficient and not the way to make friends at a busy airport.
 
SkyHog said:
Peggy, if you're not comfortable doing the 360 don't let them bully you. State "unable," and they'll find another solution. Either slow flight, s-turns, or they'll move someone else, but don't ever feel that they have the right to force you to do something you're not comfortable with.
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So, you say "unable" to a 360 because you're not "comfortable" turning away from the runway and the controller instructs you to extend your downwind. If you then you say "unable" because your're not "comfortable" being beyond gliding distance of the runway, what do you expect the controller to do? If he says those are your options, are you ready to declare an emergency for "discomfort"?

SkyHog said:
Again, if that's not comfortable, say "unable" and the controller will figure it out. Its technically his fault anyways for letting the pattern become too tight.
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Easy for the controller to prevent...N1234, remain clear of the delta airspace. Call me in 10 minutes and I'll see if I can get you in.
 
kkoran said:
So, you say "unable" to a 360 because you're not "comfortable" turning away from the runway and the controller instructs you to extend your downwind. If you then you say "unable" because your're not "comfortable" being beyond gliding distance of the runway, what do you expect the controller to do? If he says those are your options, are you ready to declare an emergency for "discomfort"?
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I'm not saying any of that, nor was any of that part of the original scenario. Controllers are not flying the airplane, the pilot is. The pilot is ultimately responsible for the safety of the flight (as has been shown by controller mistakes in the past).

Easy for the controller to prevent...N1234, remain clear of the delta airspace. Call me in 10 minutes and I'll see if I can get you in.
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Well, sure, there's that, but there's also other ways to separate aircraft before getting to downwind in the first place, and that was my point.
 
SkyHog said:
Well, sure, there's that, but there's also other ways to separate aircraft before getting to downwind in the first place, and that was my point.
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Not sure about that...

I fly into a not-so-busy Class D quite often, and have had an average of extended downwind or 360 once a month.

VFR airplanes mix it up with IFR arrivals, Army SF transports, and LifeFlight helicopters, and the VFRs often wait utnil 5 miles out to request landing.

5 miles at 110-130 knots is not alot of time to get everyone in sequence.
 
360 on downwind is usually requested on right downwind for 34, so it is a left 360. In addition, downwind is usually extended about 5 miles to the shore. All this is because they have a mixture of airliners, freight, other jets, training flights and small aircraft like mine. There may be several jets on approach while I'm on final.

I think they request the 360 when they have several jets and don't want to send me to the shore and slow down the jets that would pile up behind me. They intend to drop me down to the numbers as soon as there is a break, but keep me circling on downwind until that break appears. (You are right, I need to go to the tower and talk to the head controller about this. She's pretty nice and I heard a year ago that she was beginning to take flying lessons.)

I've shown you my downwind path in magenta, and a jet's final in lime on the attached image. Also notice that many heavy aircraft are descending on V99 on their way to LGA.
 

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AuntPeggy said:
I think they request the 360 when they have several jets and don't want to send me to the shore and slow down the jets that would pile up behind me. They intend to drop me down to the numbers as soon as there is a break, but keep me circling on downwind until that break appears. (You are right, I need to go to the tower and talk to the head controller about this. She's pretty nice and I heard a year ago that she was beginning to take flying lessons.)
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I was coming in from the Tappan Zee bridge and had just turned onto left downwind 34. Due to radio traffic I was expecting the 360, but "4508x, can you make a short approach?" Yes, cleared for the same, full flaps, full slip, on the numbers and off the runway at Kilo. Happy controller! :yes:

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
I was coming in from the Tappan Zee bridge and had just turned onto left downwind 34. Due to radio traffic I was expecting the 360, but "4508x, can you make a short approach?" Yes, cleared for the same, full flaps, full slip, on the numbers and off the runway at Kilo. Happy controller! :yes:

-Skip
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That sure feels good, doesn't it?

:-)

What were you flying, Skip?
 
That's Nancy, she's great. I don't think she's taking lessons anymore though. HPN is a pain with those 360s, but I prefer them to the extended downwinds to almost the long Island sound! I really don't like doing pattern work there anymore unless I get there before 8am, it's just too busy.
 
Skip Miller said:
I was coming in from the Tappan Zee bridge and had just turned onto left downwind 34. Due to radio traffic I was expecting the 360, but "4508x, can you make a short approach?" Yes, cleared for the same, full flaps, full slip, on the numbers and off the runway at Kilo. Happy controller! :yes:



-Skip
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Those are sweet. Fun to practice too.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Those are sweet. Fun to practice too.
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Got to do one of those with my dad and his friend on board. I took them up in IMC for a a demo.

Returning to the home field was a CTL. Vis below the ragged clg was 5 or so.

We spotted the airport off the left wing and were at MDA, I pulled the power, gave it 40 degrees of flaps, and slipped off about 200 feet on final.

Wheeeeeee!
 
Our flights out of busy BFI Class D have included 360s requested by the controller ever since I was a new student. By no means rare, they can also "disappear" for many weeks, then it seems like they're requesting them every other flight.

Slight nervousness seems fine to me when flying. The controller has your other traffic in sight, which is probly part of why they asked for the 360 for separation plus, there's a good chance of spotting the traffic while doing the turn if not in sight already.

Spatial awareness practice helps in reducing excessive nervousness and in visualizing the airport in a blind spot -and at least we know it's one thing that's not going anywhere.
 
Talk about an odd 360* on downwind, we routinely do it in the E-3(B707). Those pesky fast movers and thier "low fuel states" screw up the sequence. (note: sarcasm about the fast movers for all of you former fighter types!)
 
kkoran said:
Not necessarily. If the controller extends your downwind to follow a faster aircraft (say, a jet), he'll end up with a lot of space between you and the aircraft ahead, and have to make a have to do something to delay any faster aircraft sequenced behind you. Very inefficient and not the way to make friends at a busy airport.
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In any case.. if he extends me or 360s me.. there needs to be the appropriate spacing between me and that jet for wake turbs.. ATC is not going to make any friends pushing me in closer behind the jet.
 
Skip Miller said:
I was coming in from the Tappan Zee bridge and had just turned onto left downwind 34. Due to radio traffic I was expecting the 360, but "4508x, can you make a short approach?" Yes, cleared for the same, full flaps, full slip, on the numbers and off the runway at Kilo. Happy controller! :yes:
Click to expand...

Being able to be fully in control of your airplane and perform such maneuvers makes happy controllers, and also will often help you out as the pilot. I had a similar situation going into MDW last month where the controller asked if I could do a short approach and let me land on the runway the big boys were landing on to save me some taxi time.

Those skills are especially useful at OSH during the big show. :yes:
 
BillTIZ said:
In any case.. if he extends me or 360s me.. there needs to be the appropriate spacing between me and that jet for wake turbs.. ATC is not going to make any friends pushing me in closer behind the jet.
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You still control how close you turn behind another plane; however, if your extended downwind results in a 4-mile final at 80 kts, it will cause problems for faster aircraft behind you.
 
AuntPeggy said:
360 on downwind is usually requested on right downwind for 34, so it is a left 360. In addition, downwind is usually extended about 5 miles to the shore. All this is because they have a mixture of airliners, freight, other jets, training flights and small aircraft like mine. There may be several jets on approach while I'm on final.

I think they request the 360 when they have several jets and don't want to send me to the shore and slow down the jets that would pile up behind me. They intend to drop me down to the numbers as soon as there is a break, but keep me circling on downwind until that break appears. (You are right, I need to go to the tower and talk to the head controller about this. She's pretty nice and I heard a year ago that she was beginning to take flying lessons.)

I've shown you my downwind path in magenta, and a jet's final in lime on the attached image. Also notice that many heavy aircraft are descending on V99 on their way to LGA.
Click to expand...


I'll bet the reason they want you to circle is because extending your downwind means they've got to leave a huge gap behind you so the next fast mover in line won't run up on you as you slog along on the long approach.

One option might be turning away from the airport and flying an extended base after a 180 (or two 90s). But I don't really understand your concern over flying a shallow 360. Keeping the bank at 15-20 degrees will minimize the pitch issues. With a high wing airplane you may want to roll level every 90 degrees to get a better look around and this is perfectly OK.
 
kkoran said:
You still control how close you turn behind another plane; however, if your extended downwind results in a 4-mile final at 80 kts, it will cause problems for faster aircraft behind you.
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Let's see.. if I get extended by tower for wake turbulence to land behind a jet.. ahh.. 3 minutes at 80knts.. it's still going to be almost a 4 mile final..
It is not going to matter if I roll in off the perch from a close in downwind or from a long final. 3 mintues is 3 minutes.

The problem is the jet behind me and the towers, not mine.

Must be why the built the parrallel runway.
 
Something about turning head-on to faster traffic or people joining downwind makes me nervous, even in a controlled environment (class C). I always prefer to extend downwind and most of the controllers at ALB seem to concur. I've only been asked for a 360 once here (on the dead side of the airfield) and to extend downwind (or have ATC "call my base") almost every time I fly the pattern.

Cheers,

Gareth.
 
lancefisher said:
<snip> With a high wing airplane you may want to roll level every 90 degrees to get a better look around and this is perfectly OK.
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At my home drome (Orlando Executive, KORL) they generally prefer the extended downwind, but on occasion ask for a 360. My instructor drilled into me two things: Use 30 degrees of bank to get around, and roll level or a little more to clear your blind spot every 90 degrees. A shallow bank, or even standard rate turn takes up a lot of room. The roll to level to clear your blind spot every 90 degrees helps keep you oriented and clear of other's in a see and avoid environment. So far, so good and the tower has never complained (and they're not shy!).

John
 
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