steingar
Taxi to Parking
I meant it. A modern sportbike can stop scary fast, even without putting the rear tire in the air, and even with a putz like me riding it.
3 things I wish bikers would remember
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I meant it. A modern sportbike can stop scary fast, even without putting the rear tire in the air, and even with a putz like me riding it.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
The physics don't support it. You can't stop a modern sportbike at any decent speed in a "few feet". Have you ever tried? Don't you have one?
A Honda CBR1000RR will take 126 feet to stop from 60 mph. That is with a very skilled rider, really sticky tires, on a good traction surface. I don't think you're going to find many sport bikes that can stop in less than 120 feet from 60 mph.
A lot of the lighter sports cars *WILL* out stop a motorcycle. They have four tires with a lot more grip on the road.
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steingar
Taxi to Parking
Sport cars also have more weight. I've stopped my bike in a boatload less than 126 feet. The bad part of having such a fire-breathing sportbike is I very unwisely ride more aggressively, and find more occasions to need heavy braking.
Whether or not you agree with my assessment, the important part of my little rant (at least to me) is that a rider shouldn't go faster than local conditions and his or her own bike will support. There is simply no excuse for running into a stationary obstacle on the road. Either you should have seen it in time to stop or been going slowly enough that when it appeared around the bend or over the hill you could get stopped in time. Argue if you want, but blaming stationery objects for your crash is pretty fruitless. Blaming those who planted them there may or may not give you financial redress, but you still get to suffer the aftereffects of the crash, which can be uncomfortable to say the least.
Its your six, so do what you want. But you are correct about the laws of physics being immutable. Two objects can occupy the same space at the same time, and it hurts like hell, so better not to go there.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Sure. I just mentioned that some of them will outstop almost any motorcycle. Find me a bike that can beat:
Porsche 911 GT2 60 to 0 mph in 98 feet.
You haven't stopped it from 60 mph in much less than 126 feet. Unless you've got rockets pointed in reverse and something to hold you onto the motorcycle.
I agree. It's not a matter of not agreeing with your assessment as much as stating it simply isn't possible to stop a motorcycle from any decent speed in "a few feet". It just isn't. I've been riding them for the last 18 years of my 23 year life.
I almost smoked the back of a semi that was going about 20 mph under the speed limit without trailer lights. Barely missed it. Scared the crap out of me.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
I can't see any way to interpret this except that you were claiming to be able to stop from 45 mph in 2 feet (what did you really mean?):
" Someone couldn't stop from 45 mph? My bike will do that in a couple feet, easily (believe me, I've done it)."
I think you're confusing me with someone else here, I never posted anything about my encounter with an obstacle. I do agree that debris in road rash is likely painful to remove. I only have one experience with that and although I wasn't wearing proper riding gear, I came out of it relatively unscathed. But the anatomical parts that did suffer from asphalt contact weren't very pleasant.
IME, bikes seem to have the ability to tempt the "animal" out of some riders but I don't profess to know why. FWIW, the same thing happens to a large portion of otherwise "normal" folks when they gain control of a "Personal Watercraft".
Gerhardt
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Gerhardt
In steingar's case, it's the keyboard that brings the animal out.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Last night, 45mph to nothing in a little more than a car length. Couldn't do it from 60, nowhere to attempt that safely.
kevin47881
Final Approach
Trapper John
Ejection Handle Pulled
Lincoln Town Car or Smart car?:wink2:
Rail car?
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Good point. Land Yacht (SUV) of some variety.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
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Trapper John
Ejection Handle Pulled
That I completely agree with. If you're on a motorcycle and you collide with something in the 150° from dead in front of you down both your sides, it is your fault. That's why I only like liter bikes and bigger. I had that 600 Yamaha sport bike, and it was tricked to run, but it needed to be too tightly wound for my taste. In order to get away from the ones coming from the 60° behind me, I had to down shift a couple of gears. Liter or better and you just turn the throttle and be gone. My V-Max was awsome, and my XS Eleven Special was one bad a$$ed bike for its day, but shaft drive....
The reason I harbor evil will upon those who ride like ****oles is that they ruin it for me. The scare people and p-ss them off and as I come down the line, they f-ck me up, and I've had people open the door on me on the 405 and change lanes on me because of the people that have come before me and were riding like ****oles. If you're going to blithely f-ck up the world, expect karma to pay you back through the ones you've effected most. I am an evil bastard amongst other things.
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steingar
Taxi to Parking
The wheel of karma always turns. There is no escaping it. What goes around comes around, always.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
OK, I am seriously calling BS on this claim.
The stopping distance on a wet weight F4 from 60-0 is 115.5ft.
There is no way that going 3/4 of that speed the stopping distance is reduced by 83%
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Bob Noel
This I'd have to see to believe.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
I did it yesterday on my way home from work, and I honestly don't care what anybody says about it.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Then you are either mistaken on your speed or distance, or a liar. I hope it is the former rather than the latter. I have the same bike you do. My ass end is coming over if I try to go to from 66fps to 0fps in 20ft.
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steingar
Taxi to Parking
I have not calibrated the speedometer on the bike, so it could conceivably be off. It gives speed in big numbers, so I wasn't mistaken on that score, and the distance was what I said, a car length and a bit. Can't say I much like being called a liar.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Physics says that an deceleration rate over 115.5ft from 88fps (60mph) is around 67fps. Using the that deceleration rate, give a stopping distance of about 65ft from 66fps (45mph). Around 2Gs. Stopping in 20ft is over 6Gs. Doubt you are hanging on, or the rear end stays down.
fgcason
En-Route
Even if a motorcycle, or any other vehicle, could stop in 5 feet from 100mph, it never would in the real world even under ideal conditions. The person (typically untrained and not proficient) at the controls will grab however much brake feels like a comfortable hard stop to them...which IMO typically doubles or triples the distance that the machine can actually stop in. That region anywhere near the top of the friction curve is often unexplored scary territory and if you don't go there on a regular basis, you're not likely to go there when things go bad. And that's assuming their brain recognizes a problem and deals with it appropriately which is seldom done on the roads of today.
A fast stop from 25mph to 0mph is something like 30 feet which is the extent of most riders nerve. Even without high efficiency brakes and tires, real world stopping distance is considerably less than that...IF and only if you have regular experience with sudden extreme nose dive as the front forks compress to the stops and the rear braking power drops to about 5%. When all that's going on, the front tire is making scary skittering back and forth across the friction limit noises while risking a low side crash.
A fast stop from 25mph to 0mph is something like 30 feet which is the extent of most riders nerve. Even without high efficiency brakes and tires, real world stopping distance is considerably less than that...IF and only if you have regular experience with sudden extreme nose dive as the front forks compress to the stops and the rear braking power drops to about 5%. When all that's going on, the front tire is making scary skittering back and forth across the friction limit noises while risking a low side crash.
Unbeliever
Pre-takeoff checklist
I'm a sportbike rider as well. Taken track schools with braking exercises as well. My bike's model had the production record for stopping for a while for sportbikes. Cruisers have better stopping rates, interestingly enough. Longer wheelbase and better straight line traction.
I call major BS on stopping from 45mph in a car length. Physically impossible to even stay on the motorcycle at that rate.
A car length stop is only about a 12-15 miles an hour starting speed at best. And that doesn't include reaction time.
--Carlos V.
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steingar
Taxi to Parking
Lightest liter sportbike ever made in the $10K price bracket. Not a lot of gas, and not a lot of rider (just tiny little me) means not a lot of weight being stopped by a top of the line braking system (just as good as the bikes now, except no ABS. Good riders don't need that merde).
Most cruisers are loads heavier than sportbikes. Braking distance depends on deceleration, which varies proportionately to mass and logarithmically to velocity. Even if a cruiser had the braking system a sportbike does (most don't) there is still more mass to decelerate. One might have an easier time keeping the rear wheel down due to the longer wheel base, but that isn't likely to counter the increased mass.
Most cruisers are loads heavier than sportbikes. Braking distance depends on deceleration, which varies proportionately to mass and logarithmically to velocity. Even if a cruiser had the braking system a sportbike does (most don't) there is still more mass to decelerate. One might have an easier time keeping the rear wheel down due to the longer wheel base, but that isn't likely to counter the increased mass.
Unbeliever
Pre-takeoff checklist
Common accident forensic analysis has the modern sportbike with a skilled rider capable of decelerating at 1-1.2G. No more. Not the 6 Gs you're claiming.
http://mfes.com/motorcyclebraking.html
Motorcycle USA has the ZX-10R at 123 feet for 60-0. Honda CBR1000RR at 126 feet, Ducati 1198 S at 121 feet. Suzuki GSX-R1000 at 127 feet. These are all Liter bikes, with excellent brakes, and they're all 6-10 car length stopping distances. (assuming a 12-20 foot car length).
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/156/6847/Motorcycle-Article/2010-Kawasaki-ZX-10R-Comparison-Track.aspx
Transport Canada has 30-0 on the VFR at about 35 feet at right about 1G. (a car is 12-20 feet). 80-0 at 238 feet with ABS, 261 feet without. (note: 48.3kph == 30mph, 128.8kph == 80mph) These are all discounting reaction times.
http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2004/wp29grrf/GTRBR-2004-01-04e.pdf
The Motorcycle Safety foundation has similar numbers:
http://www.msf-usa.org/imsc/proceedings/a-green-comparisonofstoppingdistance.pdf
Both say that ABS gives consistently better stopping distances than no ABS. And a smaller statistical standard deviation on those stopping distances as well.
So you're saying that you can perform 6 times better than a skilled rider and have perfect reaction times?
Pardon us of those with real Sportbike training and experience ignore a squid with an exaggerated sense of personal ability. Did you really think that stopping distance testing by both manufacturers and 3rd party testing facilities isn't easily Googleable?
--Carlos V.
http://mfes.com/motorcyclebraking.html
Motorcycle USA has the ZX-10R at 123 feet for 60-0. Honda CBR1000RR at 126 feet, Ducati 1198 S at 121 feet. Suzuki GSX-R1000 at 127 feet. These are all Liter bikes, with excellent brakes, and they're all 6-10 car length stopping distances. (assuming a 12-20 foot car length).
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/156/6847/Motorcycle-Article/2010-Kawasaki-ZX-10R-Comparison-Track.aspx
Transport Canada has 30-0 on the VFR at about 35 feet at right about 1G. (a car is 12-20 feet). 80-0 at 238 feet with ABS, 261 feet without. (note: 48.3kph == 30mph, 128.8kph == 80mph) These are all discounting reaction times.
http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2004/wp29grrf/GTRBR-2004-01-04e.pdf
The Motorcycle Safety foundation has similar numbers:
http://www.msf-usa.org/imsc/proceedings/a-green-comparisonofstoppingdistance.pdf
Both say that ABS gives consistently better stopping distances than no ABS. And a smaller statistical standard deviation on those stopping distances as well.
So you're saying that you can perform 6 times better than a skilled rider and have perfect reaction times?
Pardon us of those with real Sportbike training and experience ignore a squid with an exaggerated sense of personal ability. Did you really think that stopping distance testing by both manufacturers and 3rd party testing facilities isn't easily Googleable?
--Carlos V.
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Gary
En-Route
Can't see this happening, unless there was a brick wall about a car length ahead. Just isn't physically possible. Would suspect there is an error in your estimation of speed and/or stopping distance.
Gary
A motorcycle with street tires on it will never out stop or out turn a car, the only safety valve you have is the throttle. Braking means nothing, I never have to brake hard on the street. I leave that riding for the track. I ride in shorts, flip flops and shades, that's it. If I have to brake hard, I screwed up. I do typically find 2 situations per ride where I need a good bit of throttle. I like riding without all the gear (as I've been doing since around 8 or so...) so I pay very close attention to what goes on well out in front of me. How far I can see dictates how fast I ride. The wild card is the guy between 4:30 and 7:30 that can get me. It's typically the guy shooting down the on ramp straight into the left lane, or the guy (or gal for that matter) pressing their car through traffic at 20-30mph above the common rate of traffic dropping in from the left. Those are the typical people who have tried to kill me without even seeing me (yes, loud pipes save lives, I wish someone would make a muffler with an "off" switch) and they are what I rate as the most hazardous thing to me. Typically they are 1.5 seconds away from impacting me by the time they first come into view. That's when big bikes shine, because I just turn the "go" handle and get from 60-100 and put 2 cars between me and them in less than that 1.5 seconds. I rarely pull over a 1/3rd of a g stopping, I've barked tires accelerating though. I have in racing applications though applied brake heavily, I've even f-d it up and highsided, but then, I have the gear for that and it's a whole different thing. What kinda ticks me off is the Walter Middy sport bike riders (and I've had sport bikes forever, even had an RG-500 Gamma back in the day) who treat the street as if they were in some kind of "Fast and Furious" movie. Movies are movies, they're not reality. Wanna play at the ends of the performance envelope, race locally. Doing it on the street just breeds ill will to all motorcyclists. You scare people, and scared people get mad.
BTW, I've never seen 2 gs out of a motorcycle except 1 and that was back in the day when they had Fuel Bike classes, those were insane and so was my buddy. There is no bike on the street that can pull over 2gs in any direction. Perhaps that car you were stopping next to was still rolling when you hit the brakes.
BTW, I've never seen 2 gs out of a motorcycle except 1 and that was back in the day when they had Fuel Bike classes, those were insane and so was my buddy. There is no bike on the street that can pull over 2gs in any direction. Perhaps that car you were stopping next to was still rolling when you hit the brakes.
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Cap'n Jack
Final Approach
I remember a graphic from one of the driving books you get when you move to another state. Not being a rider myself, it may have been BS. The graphic showed stopping distances for various vehicles. A full 18-wheeler truck had a long stopping distance. An empty 18-wheeler also had a long stopping distance because the wheels skipped on the ground and were locked (surprising to me). Flying Cheesehead would be the best person to verify that bit of info.
The motorcycle was depicted as having the shortest stopping distance. For this reason, I'll leave extra space behind a motorcycle, although cars often jump in front of me. If this depiction was true, I think a danger to motorcycles is stopping to avoid someting and getting rear-ended by a cager.
The conclusion you draw about throttle being your friend is generally valid since I think one can menuver around problems rather than stop on a motorcycle.
I don't pretend to know if a motocycle can out-turn a car, but they are smaller and can drive where a car can't and avoid trouble (and sometimes get into trouble as mentioned earlier in the thread).
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jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
45 mph to 0 in a car length? Absolutely no way. Paint a line two car lengths away from a cement wall. 45 mph until you hit that line then stop. Let me know how it works out. That's double the stopping distance you claimed...shouldn't be an issue.
No reasonable person would continue to argue impossible stopping values that defy physics and the capabilities of the best motorcycle riders in the world. I don't debate anything with unreasonable people. So I'm done trying.
Change of subject....what do you all have for bikes?
My Bandit:
No reasonable person would continue to argue impossible stopping values that defy physics and the capabilities of the best motorcycle riders in the world. I don't debate anything with unreasonable people. So I'm done trying.
Change of subject....what do you all have for bikes?
My Bandit:
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gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
I think the wiggle room here is the "a little more" part. As long as that "little more" was around 40 ft and the car length was about 20 ft we'd be getting into the realm of real numbers. In all fairness to Steingar, without some decent instrumentation it's easy to be fooled into thinking you can stop in a lot less distance than the physics dictate. Just "observing" the distance covered while making a max effort stop is gonna have a very wide margin of error for anyone and if your pre-conceived notion is a short distance, that's what you will "observe".
Gary
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Ghery
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Last bike I had was a 1970 Honda CL-175. And I sold it in 1975. After getting it fixed after a 1968 Ford Mustang hit it broadside in Dec 1973, putting his radiator back into the fan, and us in the hospital.
kevin47881
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bigred177
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