2017 Cirrus SR-22T G6 $993,000 !

[FloridaPilot]

Understood. I just don't think the supercharger thing will scale as Tesla goes into mass produced non-rich-guy vehicles. They pushed it pretty hard for the luxury sports cars to get uptake to happen, but they're obviously relying on home chargers for the common man scale size.

The people who bought the expensive version will whine and ***** heavily when they have to sit and wait behind twenty of the cheaper model on that same route during the vacation season while Clark Grizwold charges up the family truckster and the dog pees on the charging unit, lined up waiting for the charger. Haha.

They're about 50/50 the type who are convinced they're better than others, and will happily tell you so. That's the reason they bought the high end one. They needed something to show off at dinner parties.

I don't think that will ever happen. They will simply have charging stations to fit certain models. The "Super Duper" model gets to charge everywhere and specialty places made just for them.

 

[FloridaPilot]

New Mooneys just got certified:
https://generalaviationnews.com/2017/03/28/mooney-ultras-certified/

So if you want to go 50 knots faster for $200,000 less...

I'm actually excited to take a look at this bird at Sun and Fun!

Since we are on the topic of Mooney's how do you think the new CEO is going to do for the company. (Vivek Saxena)

He has a Linkedin page in case your interested:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/vivsaxena/

He just recently updated his profile, you think he's looking for another job?

 

[mtuomi]

I don't think that will ever happen. They will simply have charging stations to fit certain models. The "Super Duper" model gets to charge everywhere and specialty places made just for them.

Unlikely, they need the widest possible charging network so they don't want to differentiate.

 

[denverpilot]

I don't think that will ever happen. They will simply have charging stations to fit certain models. The "Super Duper" model gets to charge everywhere and specialty places made just for them.

Unlikely, they need the widest possible charging network so they don't want to differentiate.

He's right though. If they get enough of them they'll have ones with gold plated commodes for the repeat high end customers and a Starbucks deal. LOL.

 

[GRG55]

that's a good point.

I have to assume though that the Cirrus Jet is a lot more economical to fly than a CJ2?

That's like saying a 172 is more economical to fly than a Bo.

The Cirrus jet is a logical step up for SR22T owners, and if Cirrus did not provide an option then many of those owners would likely end up going elsewhere - perhaps Hondajet or Eclipse.

I don't think Cirrus is done. They will next need to look at a step up to perhaps a larger 2-engine jet in the family.

 

[SoonerAviator]

400 mile day trip is nothing. You have to make one 50-minute stop for lunch halfway through.

I dont know if you generally stop for lunch in a 400 mile ICE trip or not, but it's really not a burden to have to make that stop.

Only 50-minute stop if it's a Supercharger station. No Supercharger stations in between Tulsa and KC without detouring for an hour to Springfield. Without the Supercharger, you're limited to about 20 miles of range per hour of charge time. Not my idea of fun or acceptable, and I only stop for bladder relief and eat on the road. It would turn a 3.5-4hr trip in an ICE into a 8+hr trip. I understand the tech, and hope it improves to get that 400+ miles to a charge, but it isn't there yet, so it can't replace the family ICE vehicle for many middle-Americans. It would work well for a DD/in-town car, and you'd keep an ICE for the long trips.

I don't plan my car trips based off of where I might be able to fill up. When Supercharger stations are as common in every town as a fuel station, the EC will truly take off over ICE vehicles.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[weilke]

New Mooneys just got certified:
https://generalaviationnews.com/2017/03/28/mooney-ultras-certified/

So if you want to go 50 knots faster for $200,000 less...

Not really.

Premier Aircraft sales has a 2017 Ultra listed on Controller at $797,900. It does have AC but it doesn't show fiki tks (if that is even an option). The avionics sheet lists TAWS but doesn't include active traffic.

A similarly equipped SR22T sets you back:
base aircraft $639,900
AC $26,900


As for the performance claims. The 242ktas is at 25k. While occasionally someone is foolish enough to fly a longer trip at that altitude, that is going to be the exception. The same silly 25k cruise number for the SR22T is 213ktas.

So its '29kts faster for 131k more'

You could throw in active traffic, fancypants paint, infrared camera and a Yaw damper and you are still short of the cost of the Mooney.

 

[GRG55]

You made an assumption. But I do think a large part of Cirrus' success is the chute.

It had horrible safety numbers until a ton of remedial training despite the chute, isn't the fastest or best range. Sure it has comfort. A number of planes have the same avionics and TKS... so yes I think the chute has been a factor and kudos to them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I seriously doubt if Mooney installed chutes on their top end new airplanes it would move the sales needle much.

There's a comparatively small cohort of piston airplane buyers that can afford what a new high performance single costs. In the past those buyers might have looked to Beechcraft or Mooney. What is impressive is how completely Cirrus took that market and those customers away. The venerable Bo might not have many more years of production left, and Mooney has responded by adding a left hand door and trying to create a more customized, unique personal airplane experience to compete. But their sales numbers are modest, at best.

Try to convince 'Mom' its no problem stuffing two teens and baggage into a Mooney after she's had a good look at a Cirrus. No contest.

 

[Art VanDelay]

Understood. I just don't think the supercharger thing will scale as Tesla goes into mass produced non-rich-guy vehicles.

Looks pretty well scaled to me ! Keep in mind the Superchargers are just for long distance travel. What with Spirit, Frontier and Southwest charging what they do the Griswolds don't drive anywhere anymore !

 

[denverpilot]

Looks pretty well scaled to me ! Keep in mind the Superchargers are just for long distance travel. What with Spirit, Frontier and Southwest charging what they do the Griswolds don't drive anywhere anymore !

There's very large swaths of my State totally uncovered by them. But I suppose one can bring an extension cord and be a mooch at the hotel or whatever.

That map isn't anywhere near "scaled" up for the number of vehicles they're already holding pre-orders for.

 

[Art VanDelay]

There's very large swaths of my State totally uncovered by them. But I suppose one can bring an extension cord and be a mooch at the hotel or whatever.

That map isn't anywhere near "scaled" up for the number of vehicles they're already holding pre-orders for.

????? What do presuppose their range is ? I could go from Limon to the Utah state line without needing to charge. 320 mile range and CO is only 280 miles wide. Plus it wouldn't poop out going up Floyd Hill or Vail Pass.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

There's very large swaths of my State totally uncovered by them. But I suppose one can bring an extension cord and be a mooch at the hotel or whatever.

That map isn't anywhere near "scaled" up for the number of vehicles they're already holding pre-orders for.

You're way ahead of North Dakota though!

 

[denverpilot]

You're way ahead of North Dakota though!

Everyone is way ahead of ND on almost everything except nuclear weapons. Don't **** them off.

 

[weilke]

You're way ahead of North Dakota though!

Too cold for the batteries to work.

 

[denverpilot]

????? What do presuppose their range is ? I could go from Limon to the Utah state line without needing to charge. 320 mile range and CO is only 280 miles wide. Plus it wouldn't poop out going up Floyd Hill or Vail Pass.

Not talking range. Talking number of vehicles who need to do a significant charge (be there a little while) vs how many of them are about to be sold. What's here probably isn't going to cover summer vacationer demand.

Really I don't care, it's Tesla's problem. And not a bad one to have. With all the greenies they won't have any trouble getting public land taken to put the things on, and they won't even have to try hard.

I'm amazed they haven't made a deal with the National Park Service yet, honestly. The marketing for that would play well with their customers.

 

[Art VanDelay]

Not talking range. Talking number of vehicles who need to do a significant charge (be there a little while) vs how many of them are about to be sold. What's here probably isn't going to cover summer vacationer demand.

Really I don't care, it's Tesla's problem. And not a bad one to have. With all the greenies they won't have any trouble getting public land taken to put the things on, and they won't even have to try hard.

I'm amazed they haven't made a deal with the National Park Service yet, honestly. The marketing for that would play well with their customers.

I don't think you understand how the Superchargers work. You only use them when you're driving cross country. 85% of the time you're charging up at home going to and from work, running errands all on that one charge you got at home. As for summer vacationing - do people still actually drive ? Its far more likely that battery technology will improve to the point that we don't even need the Superchargers that we have now ! Think about that one for a moment and if you think I'm wrong I'll buy you a beer !

 

[GRG55]

Not really.

Premier Aircraft sales has a 2017 Ultra listed on Controller at $797,900. It does have AC but it doesn't show fiki tks (if that is even an option). The avionics sheet lists TAWS but doesn't include active traffic.

A similarly equipped SR22T sets you back:
base aircraft $639,900
AC $26,900


As for the performance claims. The 242ktas is at 25k. While occasionally someone is foolish enough to fly a longer trip at that altitude, that is going to be the exception. The same silly 25k cruise number for the SR22T is 213ktas.

So its '29kts faster for 131k more'

You could throw in active traffic, fancypants paint, infrared camera and a Yaw damper and you are still short of the cost of the Mooney.

TKS is an option on the Ultras. However I understand that TKS and A/C cannot be combined on the same airframe.

 

[Art VanDelay]

Only 50-minute stop if it's a Supercharger station. No Supercharger stations in between Tulsa and KC without detouring for an hour to Springfield. Without the Supercharger, you're limited to about 20 miles of range per hour of charge time. Not my idea of fun or acceptable, and I only stop for bladder relief and eat on the road. It would turn a 3.5-4hr trip in an ICE into a 8+hr trip. I understand the tech, and hope it improves to get that 400+ miles to a charge, but it isn't there yet, so it can't replace the family ICE vehicle for many middle-Americans. It would work well for a DD/in-town car, and you'd keep an ICE for the long trips.

I don't plan my car trips based off of where I might be able to fill up. When Supercharger stations are as common in every town as a fuel station, the EC will truly take off over ICE vehicles.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nope - they got one in Joplin now - you got no excuses !

 

[midcap]

That's like saying a 172 is more economical to fly than a Bo.

The Cirrus jet is a logical step up for SR22T owners, and if Cirrus did not provide an option then many of those owners would likely end up going elsewhere - perhaps Hondajet or Eclipse.

I don't think Cirrus is done. They will next need to look at a step up to perhaps a larger 2-engine jet in the family.

I wonder if the logical step for Cirrus would be a 6 place single engine jet. One big CJ-610 in the back.

 

[denverpilot]

I don't think you understand how the Superchargers work. You only use them when you're driving cross country. 85% of the time you're charging up at home going to and from work, running errands all on that one charge you got at home. As for summer vacationing - do people still actually drive ? Its far more likely that battery technology will improve to the point that we don't even need the Superchargers that we have now ! Think about that one for a moment and if you think I'm wrong I'll buy you a beer !

They do to the national parks. Did you miss that part? Clark Grizwold is headed out for a road trip, baby. In that new cheaper Tesla he signed up for to save the planet.

Nobody gets on an airliner to go to Yosemite.

As far as battery tech goes...

Battery tech hasn't changed significantly in my lifetime. All Tesla did was package them into a car. That chemistry isn't new by a long shot.

Which is great, but it wasn't a tech change. There's old battery tech (NiCD) that's been operational on orbit for multiple decades now.

We've always known how to properly monitor and charge the battery chemistries we have, consumer products simply didn't bother for price and complication reasons.

There's been MINOR gains in Lithium by messing with what it is mixed with, but even those aren't truly new ideas. (LiFePo for example - now produced in much larger quantity that ever and a pretty useful chemistry... but you still have to charge them very carefully compared to say, Lead-Acid.)

Maybe there will be a breakthrough in battery tech, but I doubt it.

 

[weilke]

TKS is an option on the Ultras. However I understand that TKS and A/C cannot be combined on the same airframe.

They try to avoid a recreation of the 'chubby mooney' which had a full fuel payload of 72lbs. One of the last Bravos iirc.

 

[GRG55]

... Its far more likely that battery technology will improve to the point that we don't even need the Superchargers that we have now ! Think about that one for a moment and if you think I'm wrong I'll buy you a beer !

This is where you and I disagree. Battery technology improvements are now incremental, and there won't be breakthrough capacity improvements.

These are chemical devices and already there are thermal problems with the latest technologies trying to stuff energy into them, or take it out of them rapidly.

The electric car is a great urban vehicle, especially if one can use your own solar off grid to charge it at home. i just got back last night from 5400 mile, 16 day, 7 State excursion in my 6.2 l GMC Denali. There's no f'ing way I would have ever considered doing that in a Tesla.

 

[Art VanDelay]

They do to the national parks. Did you miss that part? Clark Grizwold is headed out for a road trip, baby. In that new cheaper Tesla he signed up for to save the planet.

Nobody gets on an airliner to go to Yosemite.

As far as battery tech goes...

Battery tech hasn't changed significantly in my lifetime. All Tesla did was package them into a car. That chemistry isn't new by a long shot.

Which is great, but it wasn't a tech change. There's old battery tech (NiCD) that's been operational on orbit for multiple decades now.

We've always known how to properly monitor and charge the battery chemistries we have, consumer products simply didn't bother for price and complication reasons.

There's been MINOR gains in Lithium by messing with what it is mixed with, but even those aren't truly new ideas. (LiFePo for example - now produced in much larger quantity that ever and a pretty useful chemistry... but you still have to charge them very carefully compared to say, Lead-Acid.)

Maybe there will be a breakthrough in battery tech, but I doubt it.

If Clark wants to see Yosemite he flys into Sacramento and rents a Tesla ! If it's Yellowstone he flys into Jackson Hole, Grand Canyon - Vegas, they're all within range.

 

[Art VanDelay]

This is where you and I disagree. Battery technology improvements are now incremental, and there won't be breakthrough capacity improvements.

These are chemical devices and already there are thermal problems with the latest technologies trying to stuff energy into them, or take it out of them rapidly.

The electric car is a great urban vehicle, especially if one can use your own solar off grid to charge it at home. i just got back last night from 5400 mile, 16 day, 7 State excursion in my 6.2 l GMC Denali. There's no f'ing way I would have ever considered doing that in a Tesla.

Why'd you bother becoming a pilot if you're just gonna do all that driving ? Didn't you have anything a little more economical than 6.2 liter Denali to do it in ? I hope somebody else is footing that fuel bill !

 

[GRG55]

Why'd you bother becoming a pilot if you're just gonna do all that driving ? Didn't you have anything a little more economical than 6.2 liter Denali to do it in ? I hope somebody else is footing that fuel bill !

LOL.
First, there's a LOT more that goes in to my choice of vehicles than just fuel economy (which is why I don't own a Mooney either).
Second, the Denali is cheap to fuel compared to the Aztec And when you are trying to get around a string of 16-wheelers going uphill on a secondary highway there's nothing that beats a larger displacement American V8.
Third, the airplane was down due to an instrument failure and I could not defer the trip.

 

[denverpilot]

Why'd you bother becoming a pilot if you're just gonna do all that driving ? Didn't you have anything a little more economical than 6.2 liter Denali to do it in ? I hope somebody else is footing that fuel bill !

I don't mind footing the fuel bill on my Yukon. It's paid off. Along with the other three vehicles. Fuel is the least of the costs of vehicles.

If you're paying cash for Teslas, you're not worried about fuel prices either. If you're not paying cash, you paid a lot more than I pay in fuel!

One tip for really having nice stuff if you're middle class is to shop at the millionaire's garage sales. Get there early. ;-)

My Yukon is one step below the Denali trim package with all of the stuff re-added as features other than the airbag suspension available in that model year. I bought it off a Ford dealer who had six of them to choose from and wanted all the GMs off their lot. LOL.

Leather, upgraded stereo, butt warmers, back seat heat/radio controls, all the goodies. Whoever the real estate lady was in Colorado Springs who left all her personal information in the glove box, was... must have needed something fancier to cart customers around in to give that feel of success to her victims. Haha.

I paid WAY less than 1/3 of the new price of the thing at 40,000 miles. It's now at 145,000. Still as comfy as the day I bought it. And it handles the washboard road to the house with ease, or deep snow, or whatever else I've thrown at it. It doesn't mind the 10,000 lb cargo trailer but I don't load it that heavy behind that truck. That's a job for the Cummins.

Whole time I've owned it I've put tires on it, changed fluids on schedule, one serpentine belt, and a fuel pump and a 4WD sensor for shifting the transfer case. That's it for maintenance. I buy good tires and am on the second set.

Worst case scenario on it this year is a transmission and it seems like it's hanging in. That is based on well known problems with that trans but so far, no signs of it other than an occasional slip. It'll need brakes and probably new rotors this year too.

If you're the sort that likes a car payment in the driveway, the Tesla (and a lot of other options) are definitely for you. Had a loan on the Yukon for a year. Shouldn't have, but I was being lazy on the budget back then. It was bought in '08, paid off in '09.

 

[GRG55]

????? What do presuppose their range is ? I could go from Limon to the Utah state line without needing to charge. 320 mile range and CO is only 280 miles wide. Plus it wouldn't poop out going up Floyd Hill or Vail Pass.

So, if you are in a Colorado winter and have to heat the cabin, defrost the windshield, run the wipers, and use the headlamps, just how far will it take you?

How exactly does a heater/defroster in a Tesla work; is it a resistance heating element?

 

[Art VanDelay]

Well guys nobody's gonna force you to come out of the vehicular Stone Age and the A-Rabs no doubt appreciate your money. Just like my prognostication on the eventual lowering of ADS-B equipment price this one too will take time for you to see. And BTW you might want to check out solid state lithium batteries while your at it - I know a little ways into the future but then again so am I !

 

[Art VanDelay]

So, if you are in a Colorado winter and have to heat the cabin, defrost the windshield, run the wipers, and use the headlamps, just how far will it take you?

How exactly does a heater/defroster in a Tesla work; is it a resistance heating element?

Of course it's resistive heating but it doesn't seem to effect their sales in Canada. Here's a YouTube video of a Filipino guy in Calgary showing the effect on range.

 

[denverpilot]

So now that we've heard from the Tesla stockholder...

Anyone buying a million dollar Cirrus?

I honestly could save up for an SR20, in a few years, pretty easy, but I don't see it being much of a value to dollar proposition for me.

Fun to dollar ratio really isn't high enough.

Plenty of stuff that beats it in the place where it counts...

The 22? No way. The only way I'd do that is if a business took off and I needed one hell of a business expense and depreciation to offset taxes. That appears to be the majority of Cirrus owners I've talked to, really. And they're not even caring about the tax thing, they'd cover the nut to own it even without that. It's just gravy.

The only other way that's happening is a life insurance check on my wife, and I won't even joke about that. It's just a raw fiscal numbers observation.

 

[GRG55]

So, if you are in a Colorado winter and have to heat the cabin, defrost the windshield, run the wipers, and use the headlamps, just how far will it take you?

Of course it's resistive heating but it doesn't seem to effect their sales in Canada. Here's a YouTube video of a Filipino guy in Calgary showing the effect on range.

According to the video the first 97 km (60 miles) consumed 49% of the battery charge. Electrics are urban commuter cars. Period.

There's no way he would taking it from Calgary to Edmonton to visit the inlaws.

 

[deonb]

Only 50-minute stop if it's a Supercharger station. No Supercharger stations in between Tulsa and KC without detouring for an hour to Springfield.

There's one in Joplin. Isn't the I44 / I49 the fastest way to go anyway?

 

[deonb]

Electrics are urban commuter cars. Period.

I've driven Seattle to San Francisco in 1 day a couple of times (800 miles), and Seattle to Butte in 1 day many times (600 miles). (Tesla Model S).

How far exactly do you have to travel for it not to be just a commuter car anymore?

It's actually less tiring than in an ICE due to more frequent stops - well, more specifically because I can finally tell me family we HAVE to stop, rather than telling them I'm tired, and them wanting to push on and on. Not rationalizing here - you really do arrive in better shape. I've thrown a BBQ once after a day-trip from San Francisco to Seattle - would have NEVER done that after an ICE trip.

 

[MetalCloud]

Not really.

Premier Aircraft sales has a 2017 Ultra listed on Controller at $797,900. It does have AC but it doesn't show fiki tks (if that is even an option). The avionics sheet lists TAWS but doesn't include active traffic.

A similarly equipped SR22T sets you back:
base aircraft $639,900
AC $26,900


As for the performance claims. The 242ktas is at 25k. While occasionally someone is foolish enough to fly a longer trip at that altitude, that is going to be the exception. The same silly 25k cruise number for the SR22T is 213ktas.

So its '29kts faster for 131k more'

You could throw in active traffic, fancypants paint, infrared camera and a Yaw damper and you are still short of the cost of the Mooney.

Well there it is. And no FIKI and AC together? I'll pass. It's still not stacking up with the 22T or TTx. Especially when there are more options with those two and the useful load is still higher.

This will be 400k tops @100 hours on the used market. Less in two years.

So yeah there's a little more speed. So? I'm not convinced, and I don't think an objective buyer will be either. But there are definitely brand loyal folks out there. I'm one of them- until something better for me comes along.

As an aside.... I agree on the flight levels. Have been up there a few times, but it's not a place I regularly hang out. I tend to cruise at 11000 to 17000 for XC.

 

[FloridaPilot]

IF Cirrus decides to make bigger jets, it would be interesting to see if they would still go with a parachute or not. A parachute can't provide enough drag in flight.

 

[deonb]

A parachute can't provide enough drag in flight.

Why is there a limit? The Ares drogue parachutes were tested with a 50'000 lbs payload from a C-17. (Presumably at higher than stall speed).

 

[SoonerAviator]

Nope - they got one in Joplin now - you got no excuses !

It appears so, but if there's a line of people using the one station available, I'd be screwed. Like I said, the stations are going to have to be more prevalent than one station in each 60+ stretch. It'll get there eventually I'm sure, it's just too early for the central US. It's kind of like driving a CNG-powered vehicle. I *could* take it across the country on road trips, but you get limited by where you can go in order to get filled with CNG. All while being able to top it off at home, if you desired, just like electric. In the case of Tesla, you aren't getting a Model S for under $60K, which buys a ****l0ad of gasoline for a much cheaper ICE vehicle. Even the Model 3 won't be able to compete with other ICE economy cars (Honda Civic) if you consider total price per mile until you get a decade into ownership. It will get there, it just takes time.

 

[jbDC9]

ICE. ICE, ICE, ICE.

Since this thread has transitioned from overpriced Cirruses to electric cars, y'all keep throwing out the "ICE" thing. So, I had to Google this new secret code; Internal Combustion Engine. Ohhh, now I can understand what you guys are talking about...

 

[GRG55]

It appears so, but if there's a line of people using the one station available, I'd be screwed. Like I said, the stations are going to have to be more prevalent than one station in each 60+ stretch. It'll get there eventually I'm sure, it's just too early for the central US. It's kind of like driving a CNG-powered vehicle. I *could* take it across the country on road trips, but you get limited by where you can go in order to get filled with CNG. All while being able to top it off at home, if you desired, just like electric. In the case of Tesla, you aren't getting a Model S for under $60K, which buys a ****l0ad of gasoline for a much cheaper ICE vehicle. Even the Model 3 won't be able to compete with other ICE economy cars (Honda Civic) if you consider total price per mile until you get a decade into ownership. It will get there, it just takes time.

Most CNG vehicles are dual fuel. They won't leave you stranded or sitting around for long periods of time waiting to refill.

 

[MetalCloud]

Annnnyway I love Teslas but.... back on track

I doubt there'd be a parachute for a larger jet, if they go that route.

Maybe a pressurized Multiengine?