2014 hottest year on record

You trust the process, many of us don't, and we ample documented evidence of why we don't.

This is not just a debate among scientists. This is a matter of public policy. So the public will be the finder of fact just like a jury. If one party lies and deceives, avoids public debate, and continues to cry wolf, guess which side will prevail.

At least you have conceded the Greenhouse experiments have some relevance.

I'm not that pessimistic about the future. Probably looks better now looking at our prospects for the future than from the perspective of someone in 1939.

You make an apt analogy. Just like with a jury, those with the biggest bank rolls get to buy justice; by whatever means. Look at OJ, he got off when he could afford the dream team. Then when he was broke he landed in prison for a robbery. You have to look at government as the ring master of the Barnumist economy and society we live in. P.T. Barnum was the Anti Christ and we are living his influence as infidels. That's why we don't catch on and also why Islam is coming after us.
 
I was thinking about this while proctoring my exam and it suddenly hit me that you might be asking whether the mass of the Earth can hold enough heat absorbed from the Sun to raise its surface temperature above the theoretical blackbody temperature like the greenhouse effect does - is that it? That's a reasonable question but the answer is no - because all that mass can do is slow the temperature change as heat is absorbed or radiated away. It can't block outgoing radiation like GHGs do. If you started from absolute zero and started exposing this toy moon to day/night cycles it would, if its heat capacity was large enough, absorb more heat than it radiates away - for a while, until a steady state was reached. In that steady state the average energy stored by the "moon" would be constant and it would radiate away exactly the same amount of energy, averaged over each day/night cycle, as a blackbody with zero heat capacity.

Sorry, I realize that I've been impatient and brusque with you in a way that I would never be with one of my students that I interact with in person. That was wrong of me. You don't have the background to recognize that papers like that Moon paper are completely off base. They seem to talk the language, and the conceptual errors they make are errors that even students with some science background often make, so no one should expect a lay person to be able to spot them.

Have you ever slepped in an adobe house in the desert? You don't need any help from theories. The walls radiate heat all night long, keeping the house nice and toasty. On the other hand, put your hand on a single pane window ( infared absorber) that has had sunlight streaming through it. Cool to the touch.
 
It doesn't matter. The deceptions are multi fold and irrelevant from the meaning of the information. The meaning of the information is that we need to hurry our asses up and get off the planet or go extinct. One way or another it is going to happen, God has it covered from many angles not to mention the cosmic wildcards with lottery level odds.
I believe that you are a really smart guy and may be on to something but you are beginning to sound like the wisdom of Chopra.

http://www.wisdomofchopra.com/
 
Because we are not producing sufficient quality thought and energy. We are failing to evolve into a fully productive species, and God needs his planet back to reseed in something new that has a better chance.

Quality thought and energy? By whose standard? God needs his planet back? Did He tell you this? I think we are a very productive species and I think the progressive movement is killing that production, maybe the answer is to tell the know it alls to F off get out of the way......
 
Have you ever slepped in an adobe house in the desert? You don't need any help from theories. The walls radiate heat all night long, keeping the house nice and toasty. On the other hand, put your hand on a single pane window ( infared absorber) that has had sunlight streaming through it. Cool to the touch.
??? :dunno:

Not sure what your point is. The thin window conducts heat to the outside better than the thicker walls. It isn't cooler because it's an infrared absorber. The walls absorb infrared too - most of the materials that the surface of the Earth is made of are very good IR emitters/absorbers.
 
Quality thought and energy? By whose standard? God needs his planet back? Did He tell you this? I think we are a very productive species and I think the progressive movement is killing that production, maybe the answer is to tell the know it alls to F off get out of the way......

Basically, God is telling you the exact same thing, the message is being broadcast loud and clear, you just aren't listening. It's the point Christ was trying to get across and Buddah... Just listen. God is not secretive in the slightest, in fact everything God knows is yours to access, if you can figure out how. That's the tricky part because our brains haven't developed quite that far yet and have filters in place to protect us from being flooded by information not in our sequence, in our wave of time. That is schizophrenia, when you're perceiving your existence in other folds of time, it's hugely confusing if you don't understand what you are looking at. It's one thing to see when you pull down the filter and understand what you are looking at, it's quite another for those guys it just disappears on and they don't have a freaking clue.

The thing is, and this is where the view is really complicated, you can view your timeline from the end looking back, but you can only see the result that applies that moment and it cant take into account any future choices you may make. Basically you can see two timelines in their 'fuzzy state'. You can see what destiny is, the end of the information script God supplied at the Big Bang, and you can see where current inertia takes us as a result of the consequences of our production, our thoughts, our Free Will.

That product is the meaning of our existence, it is why God created up, we feed God Energy, information, and sensation. Right now the quality of what we supply is poor, and we have polluted our thought process through our Barnumist faith in money rather than faith in God. It's why most people don't hear God, they don't want to because they know it will cost them money, or at least that's what the propaganda says. In a way it's true, it will cost us all money, as it will disappear. It's not particularly necessary anymore, the technology is far out dated as is the principle under which we manage it.

What we are producing is butt grade crap for the most part. When 2/3rds of the children on the planet are hungry with no clean food, God is not having a good time. When we hate and kill for greed, God is not having a good time. When we torture, God is ****ing ****ed right off. We are really productive at producing bummer experiences. We suck out loud and are either going to learn or be gone.
 
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??? :dunno:

Not sure what your point is. The thin window conducts heat to the outside better than the thicker walls. It isn't cooler because it's an infrared absorber. The walls absorb infrared too - most of the materials that the surface of the Earth is made of are very good IR emitters/absorbers.

I did some more research of the pro Greenhouse side of the debate . It does not surprise me that you don't fully understand the Greenhouse mechanism. When you look to find a definition(mechanics) of the Greenhouse effect there are many variances. One thing they have in common is that they are all complicated.There is consensus among these people that the effect exists, but far from consensus on how it actually works. Lots of arguments going on. Ironic.

Maybe your school could get a small grant and recreate the Wood experiment. Do a whole bunch of little houses and put various levels of CO2 in them to see if that makes a difference.
 
I did some more research of the pro Greenhouse side of the debate . It does not surprise me that you don't fully understand the Greenhouse mechanism.
The reason I don't "fully understand" it isn't because it is complicated, but because I haven't studied it in depth. When I get time I plan to rectify that.
When you look to find a definition(mechanics) of the Greenhouse effect there are many variances. One thing they have in common is that they are all complicated.There is consensus among these people that the effect exists, but far from consensus on how it actually works. Lots of arguments going on. Ironic.
Could you point me to some of the sources you've been reading that seem to disagree with each other? I'd be very surprised if physicists who have worked in this field this disagree on the mechanism. I doubt there is any argument about the basic physics - at least none that would affect the result.
Maybe your school could get a small grant and recreate the Wood experiment. Do a whole bunch of little houses and put various levels of CO2 in them to see if that makes a difference.
I've been toying with the idea of doing something like that. It might actually make a nice senior project for an physics major. I'm not sure a proposal like that would have much chance of getting funded today, not as basic research anyway, but there are other ways to sell it.
 
Hey, look who wants to do anything they like internationally with full immunity from any kind of prosecution:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-immunity-from-prosecution/?intcmp=latestnews

That's right, the Green Climate Fund wants an unlimited get out of jail free card for every country, for every action, for everyone who advances their policy.

Sure - it's not about the power, it's about the planet. Utopia can only be achieved where the actors have no responsibility for their actions.
 
Hey, look who wants to do anything they like internationally with full immunity from any kind of prosecution:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-immunity-from-prosecution/?intcmp=latestnews

That's right, the Green Climate Fund wants an unlimited get out of jail free card for every country, for every action, for everyone who advances their policy.

Sure - it's not about the power, it's about the planet. Utopia can only be achieved where the actors have no responsibility for their actions.

Geez....

If the greenies are so sure of themselves and their data... What are they afraid of :dunno::dunno::dunno:.....:confused:..


Oh yeah,,,, It is that pesky little thing called the TRUTH...:mad2::mad2::mad2:...:rolleyes2:
 
I don't think some here realize the severe limitations of climate models. There system is far too complex to describe with software. To get around gaps in understanding climate scientists have had to make many assumptions. The ability of models to predict results in the short term has been abysmal so why should I believe that they can predict conditions decades in the future?

I studied mathematical modeling of electronic systems as both an undergraduate and graduate student in electrical engineering. Even relatively simple circuits restricted to linear ranges could be difficult to model. The complexity increases dramatically as the number of components increases. In modeling climate we would need to incorporate an unbelievable number of data points where components often interact in a non linear and unpredictable fashion.
This is a very good point, and there's no question that climate is orders of magnitude more complex than the kinds of systems engineers need to model. But demanding engineering-level accuracy in climate modeling may be missing the point somewhat. The models aren't intended to predict features that are within the bounds of "natural variability". The paradigm that's usually invoked is that of chaos - the system is so exquisitely sensitive to initial conditions that initial states that are almost identical diverge fairly quickly. It's why we can't accurately predict the weather more than a day or two out, and more than a week or so is no better than guessing. But a climate model doesn't need to predict the weather decades in the future, it only needs to reproduce the *statistics* of the weather over timescales long enough that natural variability averages out. The exact state of a chaotic system may be impossible to predict but it may still be bounded by what chaos theorists call an "attractor" - a limited region of the parameter space. The system never leaves the attractor as long as the boundary conditions don't change and it spends a predictable fraction of its time in each part of the attractor. So the models don't care about predicting whether California has a drought in 2014 or the eastern US gets clobbered with snow this year or next year, they only care about whether California gets 200 inches per decade vs 20,000, and what fraction of the time California has extreme drought conditions, i.e. long term statistics given the known forcings and initial conditions such as landform configuration, ice cover, etc. To my understanding, the forcings are boundary conditions on the models. I don't know whether the known sources of year-to-year and decadal-scale variability (like ENSO, PDO, AMO, etc.) are also put in to tune the models or whether they emerge from the physics -- that's something I've yet to learn. But models that reproduce the long-term climate statistics for a given set of forcings are the ones of interest to try to predict how those statistics change if the forcings change - e.g. if the Sun's output changes, or if more GHGs are added to the atmosphere.

One avenue for skepticism that I think is well-founded (though that might be because I don't yet know enough about the subject) is whether we know enough about the timescales on which natural variability occurs that is not connected with changes in forcings. If you can't tell the difference between forced and unforced variations then you have no way to validate your models against long-term statistics. How long does it take a chaotic system to visit every corner of the attractor? How do you establish a good timescale for telling the difference between "weather" and "climate"? How did the WMO arrive at 30 years as the cutoff? Should it be shorter or maybe much longer? There's an interesting discussion going on about these issues here.
Many climate scientists are completely dependent on government funding for their livelihood. Political bias can have a large impact on the awarding of grants. As long as the scientist's conclusions support the desires of the politicians the money will keep flowing.
That depends on the process that is used to evaluate proposals. Based on my experience (I'll admit mostly from 20 years ago), political bias for particular results has little effect on whether individual proposals are funded because the politicians are not the ones deciding merit, scientists are. I would worry more about bias on the part of the scientists themselves - not political bias so much as conceptual bias. As Feynman said, the easiest person to fool is yourself.

The AGU fall conference at San Francisco wraps up today. I listened to some of it yesterday via live streaming, mostly talks on global environmental change and mitigation. This is a scientific union not a political body, yet I saw not a single paper or lecture that doubted that AGW is real.
 
I'm not sure who said this, but it is such a complete load of unadulterated crap:

"Many climate scientists are completely dependent on government funding for their livelihood."

I really, really doubt this. At least not in terms of grants. Most scientists have a job as a researcher and/or educator. Grant money generally covers the costs of running a specific research project and is not the main source of the researcher's income. (Note: I'm not talking about guys who work for government agencies. Of course the government funds their livelihoods. The poster was referring to those who receive grant money.)

"Political bias can have a large impact on the awarding of grants. As long as the scientist's conclusions support the desires of the politicians the money will keep flowing."

In general, basic science grants are not awarded directly from the government. The government provides the money, but don't oversee how it is doled out. PhDs, researchers, and academics take turns serving on grant committees. They study the grant proposals, evaluate their merits, and make the decision whether or not to award funds. This canard that grants are awarded based on politics is just plain ignorance of how the process works.
 
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In general, basic science grants are not awarded directly from the government. The government provides the money, but don't oversee how it is doled out. PhDs, researchers, and academics take turns serving on grant committees. They study the grant proposals, evaluate their merits, and make the decision whether or not to award funds. This canard that grants are awarded based on politics is just plain ignorance of how the process works.
Right, and I think that's pretty much what I said in the post directly above yours. Politicians do not evaluate proposals, people actively working in the field do. Proposals are evaluated based on scientific merit not on whether the topic conforms to the administration's or anyone else's political bias.

That said, areas of research can lose funding from specific agencies based on political considerations. One example is DoD funding for basic research into atomic collision processes. My thesis research was in that area. The funds flowed freely when applications to developing SDI systems were of interest, mainly in the 1980's to around 1990. Then the Berlin Wall fell and peace started breaking out. The Clinton administration came to power. The funds dried up. My adviser lost his grant and I took a job in an unrelated field. So politics isn't entirely out of the picture, but it doesn't bias the science in the simplistic way that Gary implied.
 
I'm not sure who said this, but it is such a complete load of unadulterated crap:

"Many climate scientists are completely dependent on government funding for their livelihood."

I really, really doubt this. At least not in terms of grants. [snip]

This is not really supporting your case very well...

I have no particular dog in this fight, I just think you're doing yourself a disservice by this kind of response.
 
This is not really supporting your case very well...

I have no particular dog in this fight, I just think you're doing yourself a disservice by this kind of response.
As an academic, I can say that it's mostly true. Academic salaries for tenure-track research faculty are not paid out of grant money. Reputation and advancement, of course, are important to one's livelihood and getting published (which usually requires getting proposals funded) bears directly on promotion and tenure, so early career academic scientists are tied to government funding. And for an active research academic, publication rate bears on salary. (Later on, once one has established oneself as a researcher of merit, there are ways of surviving and even thriving that don't involve grant funding - my former adviser is now associate chair of the department and has a typical administrative salary, i.e. significantly higher than when he was doing research.) But again, as both of us have said, proposals are evaluated according to merit not political bias. So the idea that researchers must tow the line politically is simply not true. I doubt seriously that politics plays a direct role for people working in the national labs either - lots of basic research is done there, again projects are funded depending on scientific merit.
 
This is not really supporting your case very well...

I have no particular dog in this fight, I just think you're doing yourself a disservice by this kind of response.

Huh? I don't follow your reasoning. First of all, what do you think "my case" is? That would be a good start.
 
[snipped just so I can reply directly...]


I read an article recently lamenting that given the sharply reduced money available for grants that the grant committees are being very conservative as to what they are funding. The concern expressed in the article (which I could not easily find, sorry.) is that promising but unusual research is just not getting funded. Nobody wants to risk "wasting" money. Is there any truth to this in your (academic) experience? Could this be having some of the the same results in curtailing non-mainstream ideas without any malice or malfeasance?

Just curious as to what those in academia are seeing...

John
 
Huh? I don't follow your reasoning. First of all, what do you think "my case" is? That would be a good start.

What you wrote (and I quoted) was:
I'm not sure who said this, but it is such a complete load of unadulterated crap:

"Many climate scientists are completely dependent on government funding for their livelihood."

I really, really doubt this.

So it's "a complete load of unadulterated crap", but "I really, really doubt this." is not a strong, evidence based statement to refute it. It's not even an "I'm sure it's wrong." statement. It didn't seem to fit with the previous statement of your convictions.

That's all I was trying to say.

John
 
Having worked on the early days of the fusion project, before it was even called the Natl Ignition Facility, I can tell you without reservation that the majority of research done, even under the banner of UCLA was all funded directly by the feds. Yes, many, many, many corp and univ scientists lived or died by the grant. I know this from having to do lots of research for profs new grants cuz the old ones were running out.

Sorry.
 
I read an article recently lamenting that given the sharply reduced money available for grants that the grant committees are being very conservative as to what they are funding. The concern expressed in the article (which I could not easily find, sorry.) is that promising but unusual research is just not getting funded. Nobody wants to risk "wasting" money. Is there any truth to this in your (academic) experience? Could this be having some of the the same results in curtailing non-mainstream ideas without any malice or malfeasance?
I don't have direct recent research experience, but I think this is probably true to an extent. Belts are tighter now, no question. But good proposals for basic research apparently still stand a good chance of getting funded, as witness the vitality of the high energy physics experimental field. Lots of applied research is getting funded too, especially in up-and-coming fields such as biophysics. Another angle is the PCAST goal of increasing graduation rates in STEM fields - funds for good REU programs are by no means unobtainable.
 
Having worked on the early days of the fusion project, before it was even called the Natl Ignition Facility, I can tell you without reservation that the majority of research done, even under the banner of UCLA was all funded directly by the feds. Yes, many, many, many corp and univ scientists lived or died by the grant. I know this from having to do lots of research for profs new grants cuz the old ones were running out.
The research is indeed funded by the feds, almost entirely. And as I said, publish or perish is the rule for younger tenure-track faculty prior to tenure. Once you achieve tenure, it's no longer a matter of staying alive, more one of reputation and, to some extent, salary level.

But it's a huge leap from federal funding to political oversight and control of research content. The system is designed to prevent that.
 
The research is indeed funded by the feds, almost entirely. And as I said, publish or perish is the rule for younger tenure-track faculty prior to tenure. Once you achieve tenure, it's no longer a matter of staying alive, more one of reputation and, to some extent, salary level.

But it's a huge leap from federal funding to political oversight and control of research content. The system is designed to prevent that.

The "system" ain't working....:no::no:......:nonod:
 
The "system" ain't working....:no::no:......:nonod:
Right, because it couldn't possibly be that people are convinced by the *science*. :rolleyes:

If you delve into the field, you quickly learn that there are quite a few people questioning different aspects of the science, in particular the ways the models are used to forecast future climates. But it's a lot easier to just sit back and say it's all politics. :yes:
 
This is a very good point, and there's no question that climate is orders of magnitude more complex than the kinds of systems engineers need to model. But demanding engineering-level accuracy in climate modeling may be missing the point somewhat. The models aren't intended to predict features that are within the bounds of "natural variability". The paradigm that's usually invoked is that of chaos - the system is so exquisitely sensitive to initial conditions that initial states that are almost identical diverge fairly quickly. It's why we can't accurately predict the weather more than a day or two out, and more than a week or so is no better than guessing. But a climate model doesn't need to predict the weather decades in the future, it only needs to reproduce the *statistics* of the weather over timescales long enough that natural variability averages out. The exact state of a chaotic system may be impossible to predict but it may still be bounded by what chaos theorists call an "attractor" - a limited region of the parameter space. The system never leaves the attractor as long as the boundary conditions don't change and it spends a predictable fraction of its time in each part of the attractor. So the models don't care about predicting whether California has a drought in 2014 or the eastern US gets clobbered with snow this year or next year, they only care about whether California gets 200 inches per decade vs 20,000, and what fraction of the time California has extreme drought conditions, i.e. long term statistics given the known forcings and initial conditions such as landform configuration, ice cover, etc. To my understanding, the forcings are boundary conditions on the models. I don't know whether the known sources of year-to-year and decadal-scale variability (like ENSO, PDO, AMO, etc.) are also put in to tune the models or whether they emerge from the physics -- that's something I've yet to learn. But models that reproduce the long-term climate statistics for a given set of forcings are the ones of interest to try to predict how those statistics change if the forcings change - e.g. if the Sun's output changes, or if more GHGs are added to the atmosphere.

One avenue for skepticism that I think is well-founded (though that might be because I don't yet know enough about the subject) is whether we know enough about the timescales on which natural variability occurs that is not connected with changes in forcings. If you can't tell the difference between forced and unforced variations then you have no way to validate your models against long-term statistics. How long does it take a chaotic system to visit every corner of the attractor? How do you establish a good timescale for telling the difference between "weather" and "climate"? How did the WMO arrive at 30 years as the cutoff? Should it be shorter or maybe much longer? There's an interesting discussion going on about these issues here.

That depends on the process that is used to evaluate proposals. Based on my experience (I'll admit mostly from 20 years ago), political bias for particular results has little effect on whether individual proposals are funded because the politicians are not the ones deciding merit, scientists are. I would worry more about bias on the part of the scientists themselves - not political bias so much as conceptual bias. As Feynman said, the easiest person to fool is yourself.

The AGU fall conference at San Francisco wraps up today. I listened to some of it yesterday via live streaming, mostly talks on global environmental change and mitigation. This is a scientific union not a political body, yet I saw not a single paper or lecture that doubted that AGW is real.

You end with another argument of authority. After all, could all these people be wrong? The big problem is, the temperatures, past and present, stubbornly refuse to behave in accordance with the Greenhouse hypothesis.

"The great tragedy of science- the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact" - Thomas Huxley
 
You end with another argument of authority. After all, could all these people be wrong? The big problem is, the temperatures, past and present, stubbornly refuse to behave in accordance with the Greenhouse hypothesis.
An argument by authority is saying that because so and so, or all these people, say something therefore it must be true. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that these *scientists* have done extensive research on the subject and still believe it, therefore it is much likelier that they are convinced by the science rather than by politics.

That doesn't mean the conclusion is *true*, what is true is a separate question. But in the realm of scientific ideas, I do believe that science is the best process for ferreting out what is true and what isn't.

BTW the measured temperatures past and present don't "stubbornly refuse to behave" in accordance with anything. Not all, but some of the models do reproduce the present temperatures and hindcast past temperatures quite well. The problem is that the uncertainties are large both in the observations and forecasts of all of the models. Estimating the uncertainties in what the models predict with any accuracy is apparently one of the hardest problems in climate science today.
 
An argument by authority is saying that because so and so, or all these people, say something therefore it must be true. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that these *scientists* have done extensive research on the subject and still believe it, therefore it is much likelier that they are convinced by the science rather than by politics.

That doesn't mean the conclusion is *true*, what is true is a separate question. But in the realm of scientific ideas, I do believe that science is the best process for ferreting out what is true and what isn't.

BTW the measured temperatures past and present don't "stubbornly refuse to behave" in accordance with anything. Not all, but some of the models do reproduce the present temperatures and hindcast past temperatures quite well. The problem is that the uncertainties are large both in the observations and forecasts of all of the models. Estimating the uncertainties in what the models predict with any accuracy is apparently one of the hardest problems in climate science today.

Please show evidence of rising CO2 levels, then rising temperatures. Theory and models do not count as evidence. Neither does the "hockey stick" graph.
 
Please show evidence of rising CO2 levels, then rising temperatures. Theory and models do not count as evidence. Neither does the "hockey stick" graph.
I've attached a graph from my notes from an astronomy course I taught at my former institution. It's from an astronomy textbook published around 2012 (Schneider and Arny, Pathways to Astronomy, 3rd ed.). I don't have a copy of the book here to look up the exact reference from which the image was taken, unfortunately. But since just about anything else I could point to you would say does not "count as evidence", it's the best I could do.

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I've attached a graph from my notes from an astronomy course I taught at my former institution. It's from an astronomy textbook published around 2012 (Schneider and Arny, Pathways to Astronomy, 3rd ed.). I don't have a copy of the book here to look up the exact reference from which the image was taken, unfortunately. But since just about anything else I could point to you would say does not "count as evidence", it's the best I could do.

attachment.php


Nice graph. It proves, without question, that rising temperatures causes a CO2 increase.

What? It doesn't?

I guess it doesn't prove the converse either.

Correlation is not causation.
 
I've attached a graph from my notes from an astronomy course I taught at my former institution. It's from an astronomy textbook published around 2012 (Schneider and Arny, Pathways to Astronomy, 3rd ed.). I don't have a copy of the book here to look up the exact reference from which the image was taken, unfortunately. But since just about anything else I could point to you would say does not "count as evidence", it's the best I could do.

attachment.php

Note on the graph, the CO2 line begins a sharp upswing around 1945, but temperatures decline from 1940-1975. No correlation, although proponents of the Greenhouse theory say this is where temperature increase would be the most pronounced with the initial increase of CO2. That is why they had to "hide the decline".Then starting around 1975 temperatures increase, but if you were to extend the temperature line from 1998 to present day, temperature line would be flat while CO2 line would continue sharp upward climb. No correlation.

This is why the constant drumbeat of "Global Warming" has been changed to "Climate Change."
 
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Nice graph. It proves, without question, that rising temperatures causes a CO2 increase.

What? It doesn't?

I guess it doesn't prove the converse either.

Correlation is not causation.
You need to learn to read in context, and also to read graphs that display on more than one scale.

First off, the request was for a graph that shows CO2 increase followed by rising temperatures. That graph does show that, period. It shows CO2 levels rising from 1880 through the present with steady to slowly rising temperatures, followed by an uptick in CO2 starting around 1960 and an uptick in temps starting in the mid '70s.

But second, nowhere did I claim that this is enough to show the CO2 increases cause temps to rise. I was only responding to VC's request. You're correct that correlation does not imply causation. That increases in GHGs are capable of causing global temperature increases is settled science: the radiative forcing due to CO2, in particular, is well known and quantified and not in dispute by anyone except people who are ignorant of the basic physics. Whether THIS particular warming trend is due to CO2 increase is another question, but the science points strongly to the answer being yes. Can we be 100% certain of that? Of course not. If you want 100% certainty then stick to pure logic and mathematics, you won't find it in science.
 
Note on the graph, the CO2 line begins a sharp upswing around 1945, but temperatures decline from 1940-1975. No correlation, although proponents of the Greenhouse theory say this is where temperature increase would be the most pronounced with the initial increase of CO2. That is why they had to "hide the decline".Then starting around 1975 temperatures increase, but if you were to extend the temperature line from 1998 to present day, temperature line would be flat while CO2 line would continue sharp upward climb. No correlation.
What you're saying would only be true if CO2 was the ONLY change in forcing, but it's not and this is well known. Solar output varies as well, as does volcanic activity, and there are decadal and perhaps multi-decadal sources of natural variability in global temperatures that the science is still grappling with.
This is why the constant drumbeat of "Global Warming" has been changed to "Climate Change."
Another popular misconception. "Climate change" was chosen because the effects of anthropogenic GHG emissions go beyond temperature changes and include rises in sea level, changes in precipitation patterns, alterations in patterns of extreme weather events, etc., not because anything has changed in the basic thinking that the global climate has been and is continuing to warm.
 
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Right, because it couldn't possibly be that people are convinced by the *science*. :rolleyes:

If you delve into the field, you quickly learn that there are quite a few people questioning different aspects of the science, in particular the ways the models are used to forecast future climates. But it's a lot easier to just sit back and say it's all politics. :yes:


But... There are no scientists that work for a private sector business... I cannot find even ONE private business that does climate change/MMGW studies that does not get funding from guvmint grants....Scientists work for .edu places, or the government.. And the .edu group receives billions in tax payer dollars to perform their science.. You are a professor and you know damn well where ALOT your funding comes from.

Geez...... If you don't think politics plays a part in the research then maybe you and Gruber need to create a PR firm together...:lol:.:D
 
You need to learn to read in context, and also to read graphs that display on more than one scale.

First off, the request was for a graph that shows CO2 increase followed by rising temperatures. That graph does show that, period. It shows CO2 levels rising from 1880 through the present with steady to slowly rising temperatures, followed by an uptick in CO2 starting around 1960 and an uptick in temps starting in the mid '70s.

But second, nowhere did I claim that this is enough to show the CO2 increases cause temps to rise. I was only responding to VC's request. You're correct that correlation does not imply causation. That increases in GHGs are capable of causing global temperature increases is settled science: the radiative forcing due to CO2, in particular, is well known and quantified and not in dispute by anyone except people who are ignorant of the basic physics. Whether THIS particular warming trend is due to CO2 increase is another question, but the science points strongly to the answer being yes. Can we be 100% certain of that? Of course not. If you want 100% certainty then stick to pure logic and mathematics, you won't find it in science.

Your statement comes straight from the IPCC, pure propaganda. "Settled science"... "Well known and quantified", " not in dispute..ignorant of the basic physics".

A theory or hypothesis is never settled until you have experimentation that proves it or predictable results. There is neither. In fact all the observation and experimentation show that the theory should be discarded.
 
What you're saying would only be true if CO2 was the ONLY change in forcing, but it's not and this is well known. Solar output varies as well, as does volcanic activity, and there are decadal and perhaps multi-decadal sources of natural variability in global temperatures that the science is still grappling with.

Another popular misconception. "Climate change" was chosen because the effects of anthropogenic GHG emissions go beyond temperature changes and include rises in sea level, changes in precipitation patterns, alterations in patterns of extreme weather events, etc., not because anything has changed in the basic thinking that the global climate has been and is continuing to warm.

Ha! Do think if temperatures had continued to rise from 1998 to now we wouldn't be hearing the chant of global warming. The movement is getting desperate.
 
For many scientists, their reputation is their most important possession. They will cling to something, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, to their dying day rather than admit they were wrong.
 
For many scientists, their reputation is their most important possession. They will cling to something, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, to their dying day rather than admit they were wrong.


Do you actually know any research scientists? I ask because I know a lot. Heck, I know a WHOLE lot, and I've never met anyone who's opinions couldn't be changed by data.

I take it back, Cary Mullis, and old surfing buddy who won the Nobel Prize for inventing PCR, thinks HIV doens't cause AIDs. That must mean it isn't "settled" science, and all those AIDs patients can just stop taking their anti-retroviral drugs.
 
Do you actually know any research scientists? I ask because I know a lot. Heck, I know a WHOLE lot, and I've never met anyone who's opinions couldn't be changed by data.

I take it back, Cary Mullis, and old surfing buddy who won the Nobel Prize for inventing PCR, thinks HIV doens't cause AIDs. That must mean it isn't "settled" science, and all those AIDs patients can just stop taking their anti-retroviral drugs.

Scientists sitting on the sidelines will change their mind. Many have, especially upon learning they were fed fake data. The scientists who raised the alarm however are looking for a way to save face.

To say that the issue of MMGW a is "settled science" flies in the face of "settled" scientific method.
 
Scientists sitting on the sidelines will change their mind. Many have, especially upon learning they were fed fake data. The scientists who raised the alarm however are looking for a way to save face.

To say that the issue of MMGW a is "settled science" flies in the face of "settled" scientific method.

You dodged his question. Do you actually know any research scientists?
 
You dodged his question. Do you actually know any research scientists?

No. But so what? I said scientists will change their mind based on data. There is good evidence available that on the issue of MMGW many have, and many others don't support the IPCC conclusions. I don't need to know any personally to know this.

The scientists who have been the most alarmist, and whose reputations are at stake, will be very reluctant to admit error.
 
I once figured it would take a G-V pilot over 100 years to make a cloud of CO2 that weighed the same as just one typical cumulus cloud. I used around 500 hours per year flight time (I think). Can't remember the weight of a "standard cloud" of water vapor. :dunno: Has anybody else figured it out too?

dtuuri
 
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