2 DUIs / juvenile case

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Tecan

Filing Flight Plan
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Tecan
So I’m looking for some honest / helpful advice. I love flying I got hooked ever since my first instruction flight. It’s a great feeling that can’t be beat. I want to make flying a career but Ive made some really stupid choices in my life recent and past. I won’t try to sugar coat it, just looking for some help. First I’ll start off by saying I don’t drink anymore I haven’t touched a drop since my last DUI (2 years) and I don’t ever plan to again. It led to pour choices that I’ll have to live with for the rest of my life.

I’m 24 years old I got my first dui when I was minor (17). and another 4 days after my 22nd. I blew a .15 for the first and they drew blood for the 2nd .18

After I finished going through the first DUI when I was 17 My lawyer told me that I never should disclose that I got that DUI on ANYTHING if asked. He said since I was a minor it was protected and I didn’t have to release the information to anyone for any reason. In the 7 years I never have listed the first DUI on any form that’s asked since. I never have thought or questioned it since my well paid lawyer at the time told me I didn’t have to.

I’m a student pilot now and have 10 hours with a CFI so far. I went to get my medical a couple months ago and when asked if I got a DUI I listed the 2nd DUI I didn’t think to list the first since I never have and was told never to do so. the AME deffered it to FAA and I received a letter telling me what I need to present them with and with that my driving record needed to be sent in. My juvenile DUI was listed on the record.

I’m wondering if I really messed up here and looking for advice on what I need to do to fix it. I already sent in the information and didn’t realize it was on the record until I looked at the copy this morning. I don’t think they’ve received it yet. I know DUIs are a big thing in the aviation world as they should be and I don’t want FAA to think I was trying to cover something up. I’d do anything to get my medical even if it means peeing in a cup everyday for the rest of my life to prove I don’t drink anymore.

Thank you all who took the time to read
 
Welcome to the forum,hopefully one of the Doc,s will come along with some good advice.
 
Thank you for the friendly welcome and for taking the time to read the thread! Hopefully, I’m at a total loss on what to do...
 
You have a lot of 'splaining to do and you have a long road ahead of you. Not disclosing the first one was a big mistake which you are going to find out. Being honest, apologetic and humble will go a long way in this. The advice to pay close attention to is from the AMEs who frequent here, bbchien and/or lbfjrmd, they know this stuff. Best of luck, perseverance (and sobriety) pay off.
 
Thank you for your reply! I realize I messed up. I was never trying to hide the fact it happened but like I said I was told never to disclose this information to anyone. And I haven’t in the last 7 years. It just totally slipped my mind...

And thanks hopefully one of them will be able to help me out
 
Tecan said:
I’m wondering if I really messed up here
Click to expand...
Yeah, you messed up. This is what happens when you make poor choices, and they always seem to come back around to haunt you later down the road. Hopefully you learned that lesson.

Good luck!
 
Tecan said:
Thank you for your reply! I realize I messed up. I was never trying to hide the fact it happened but like I said I was told never to disclose this information to anyone. And I haven’t in the last 7 years. It just totally slipped my mind...

And thanks hopefully one of them will be able to help me out
Click to expand...

You can make contact with them, search the screen names I posted above, I believe both give their contact info. Dr B is very busy, but I think he would give you an idea of what needs to be done if he can't take you on. I don't know Dr Lou's status, but I believe he does this stuff too. The most important thing I think with both of them is to listen closely to what they say, make sure you understand it, then do it. Arguing about bad advice you got in the past (aviation wise) is useless, so don't do it, just move forward. There are also many threads like this here, just search dui. You can see what you are in for to become a pilot.
 
Thanks Paul I really appreciate it and I have no problem listening and doing whatever it takes. I Don’t want to give off the impression that I’m trying to argue about the information I got from the lawyer, I was just making it clear why I didn’t list it to the AME. It does sound like it was real bad advice. I’ll definitely send a message to both of them and see if one of them would be willing to help. Again thank you very much for the advise

Oh and I’ve also looked over other threads that are similar to my case. And I don’t mind doing whatever it takes to get my med. what I’m really concerned about is that fact I didn’t disclose the minor DUI on form 8500-8 and what I need to do to correct it.
 
PaulS said:
...Arguing about bad advice you got in the past (aviation wise) is useless, so don't do it, just move forward....
Click to expand...

I agree about not arguing, but if he is asked why he didn't report the first one, it seems like it would make sense to answer the question.
 
Palmpilot said:
I agree about not arguing, but if he is asked why he didn't report the first one, it seems like it would make sense to answer the question.
Click to expand...

I was just trying to make it clear on why I didn’t report it. Not trying to argue if the lawyer was right or not.
 
@Tecan ... This is a copy/paste item I created for new airmen based on what Dr. Bruce Chien and Dr. Lou Foster have shared with us PoA members over the years. This is general summary of things. What is needed for your specific case might be different. I have edited what I copy/paste a small amount to apply to your particular declaration in the first post of this thread.

That you have on record an 2 incidents where you had a BAC greater than 0.15 that is VERY big thing that the FAA is going to want to know about.

And it isn’t just those single points in time. They want to know SIGNIFICANTLY more about your overall physical and psychological makeup that got you there and allows you to get there.

The FAA acts as a warden to prevent individuals that have developed a tolerance for high alcohol limits from obtaining and exercising pilot privileges. So for individuals such as yourself, the ball will be placed squarely in your court to prove beyond shadows of doubt that you are willing to prove you are worthy of flying privileges by doing everything they will ask of you.

If you have already submitted to an FAA medical examination and the AME has forward the details to the Aeromedical Certification Division (AMCD), you are going to receive a letter from the FAA informing you that you are not eligible for a medical certificate under the standards. But that there is a glimmer of hope if you are willing to do what they say. The letter you are going to get will have the specific details of what the FAA wants. Search back through this forum, and you will see that the requirements will include
  • A $6000 to $10,000 budget to pay for they various tests, examinations, and consultations the FAA will require of you.
  • A neuro cognative psychological screen of extreme depth that only a very few HIMS psychologists can administer, paid for out of your pocket
  • Direct sponsorship with a Senior HIMS AME, to whom you report to frequently and to whom you must demonstrate you are doing what is required to earn the medical certificate. There are very, very few of these AME’s, so plan onfrequent travel to see the one who is working your case.
  • 90 days of intensive alcohol dependency treatment.
  • 100% sobriety and abstinence from all alcohol. Wine with girlfriend and beer with buddies is now verboten, für immer
  • Documented attendance with alcohol dependency meetings
  • Many, many random pee in the cup whiz quizzes
  • And much, much more.
All of this must be done in exacting detail for you to be granted a Special Issuance medical. Only after continued proven 100% sobriety for a long period of time will you be allowed back into the normal issuance group.

Reading this and then saying back to us, “but I am not an alcoholic, I do not have a drinking problem” is an incorrect response.

That you blew 0.15 at one time and blood draw of 0.18 is a strong indicator that, per the FAA standards, there is a problem.

That you were only caught twice doesn't absolve you because no one knows how many other times in be tween or since the last one were you that intoxicated. The FAA is going to take the stance that you frequently drink to excess until you can prove that you don't.

The correct response is saying, “fine, I have a problem. Let’s get with meeting the requirements and make this thing happen.”

Humble honestly and humility wins the day over arrogance and unwillingness to accept and change.
 
Tecan said:
Thanks Paul I really appreciate it and I have no problem listening and doing whatever it takes. I Don’t want to give off the impression that I’m trying to argue about the information I got from the lawyer, I was just making it clear why I didn’t list it to the AME. It does sound like it was real bad advice. I’ll definitely send a message to both of them and see if one of them would be willing to help. Again thank you very much for the advise

Oh and I’ve also looked over other threads that are similar to my case. And I don’t mind doing whatever it takes to get my med. what I’m really concerned about is that fact I didn’t disclose the minor DUI on form 8500-8 and what I need to do to correct it.
Click to expand...

You sound like you have a good attitude about this, I haven't seen any indication that you are arguing at all, I just wanted to point out not to do it. Your lawyer's advice was probably good for other applications, just not the FAA. I can't help you with how to correct the 1st dui issues, hopefully the docs can help.
 
@Tecan -- you are going to need the assistance of a Senior HIMS AME to manage your case. This is a special version of the Aviation Medical Examiner that knows how to navigate this difficult airspace.

Most regular AME's will not have the specific knowledge, training, or experience to do this. Only work with the right Senior HIMS AME if you want this to come to a successful end.
 
PaulS said:
You sound like you have a good attitude about this, I haven't seen any indication that you are arguing at all, I just wanted to point out not to do it. Your lawyer's advice was probably good for other applications, just not the FAA. I can't help you with how to correct the 1st dui issues, hopefully the docs can help.
Click to expand...
Thanks Paul totally appreciate people like you. Sorry if I mixed that up a little. I totally understand what I did was wrong. I made stupid decisions that I am responsible for. everything that’s happening is a product of my own behavior and tendency. I regret it but can’t take it back. Only move forward.
 
AggieMike88 said:
@Tecan -- you are going to need the assistance of a Senior HIMS AME to manage your case. This is a special version of the Aviation Medical Examiner that knows how to navigate this difficult airspace.

Most regular AME's will not have the specific knowledge, training, or experience to do this. Only work with the right Senior HIMS AME if you want this to come to a successful end.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your replies Aggie!!
I read that post earlier about what was needed to do. And like I said before im willing to do whatever it takes. But I made a big error of not reporting the first on my record which I’m scared is going to really mess me up. I’m going to try and get in contact with a senior HIMS AME as soon as I can

Also thanks for the information
 
I tried to get ahold of Bruce via his website but when I tried sending a message I was told an error occurred and wouldn’t let me. Also messaged lbf and currently am waiting for a reply thanks again paul
 
ok ... let see what the spider hath weaved! DM sent. Now you wait for FAA response. Do not worry about penalties ( the FAA is an agency, not a Law Enforcement entity) ... you will have the opportunity to set the record straight in the future . I suspect you will likely be going the HIMS route.
 
Last edited:
Tecan said:
So I’m looking for some honest / helpful advice. I love flying I got hooked ever since my first instruction flight. It’s a great feeling that can’t be beat. I want to make flying a career but Ive made some really stupid choices in my life recent and past. I won’t try to sugar coat it, just looking for some help. First I’ll start off by saying I don’t drink anymore I haven’t touched a drop since my last DUI (2 years) and I don’t ever plan to again. It led to pour choices that I’ll have to live with for the rest of my life.

I’m 24 years old I got my first dui when I was minor (17). and another 4 days after my 22nd. I blew a .15 for the first and they drew blood for the 2nd .18

After I finished going through the first DUI when I was 17 My lawyer told me that I never should disclose that I got that DUI on ANYTHING if asked. He said since I was a minor it was protected and I didn’t have to release the information to anyone for any reason. In the 7 years I never have listed the first DUI on any form that’s asked since. I never have thought or questioned it since my well paid lawyer at the time told me I didn’t have to.

I’m a student pilot now and have 10 hours with a CFI so far. I went to get my medical a couple months ago and when asked if I got a DUI I listed the 2nd DUI I didn’t think to list the first since I never have and was told never to do so. the AME deffered it to FAA and I received a letter telling me what I need to present them with and with that my driving record needed to be sent in. My juvenile DUI was listed on the record.

I’m wondering if I really messed up here and looking for advice on what I need to do to fix it. I already sent in the information and didn’t realize it was on the record until I looked at the copy this morning. I don’t think they’ve received it yet. I know DUIs are a big thing in the aviation world as they should be and I don’t want FAA to think I was trying to cover something up. I’d do anything to get my medical even if it means peeing in a cup everyday for the rest of my life to prove I don’t drink anymore.

Thank you all who took the time to read
Click to expand...
It's a shame that 97% of the lawyers do not understand Federal law, only local/state laws, unless they specialize in either Constitutional or Aviation law. Should you ever apply for a a variety of security clearances (but not all), you'll be required to disclose the juvenile DUI, too. Pretty much everything Federal requires full disclosure. There are times lawyers provide incorrect information mostly because they don't really understand the long-term implications of their advice.

In the world of the FAA, you admit and beg forgiveness unlike other situations.
 
murphey said:
It's a shame that 97% of the lawyers do not understand Federal law, only local/state laws, unless they specialize in either Constitutional or Aviation law. Should you ever apply for a a variety of security clearances (but not all), you'll be required to disclose the juvenile DUI, too. Pretty much everything Federal requires full disclosure. There are times lawyers provide incorrect information mostly because they don't really understand the long-term implications of their advice.
In the world of the FAA, you admit and beg forgiveness unlike other situations.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your post and I totally agree I was young and took everything he said word for word without thinking of repercussions.
I know now I should have disclosed it and will do everything I can to make it right with them. Thankfully from everyone’s posts I’ve been able to gain a much better understanding of my position and what I should expect in the future. Thank you everyone I really appreciate the help
 
AggieMike88 said:
@Tecan ... This is a copy/paste item I created for new airmen based on what Dr. Bruce Chien and Dr. Lou Foster have shared with us PoA members over the years. This is general summary of things. What is needed for your specific case might be different. I have edited what I copy/paste a small amount to apply to your particular declaration in the first post of this thread.

That you have on record an 2 incidents where you had a BAC greater than 0.15 that is VERY big thing that the FAA is going to want to know about.

And it isn’t just those single points in time. They want to know SIGNIFICANTLY more about your overall physical and psychological makeup that got you there and allows you to get there.

The FAA acts as a warden to prevent individuals that have developed a tolerance for high alcohol limits from obtaining and exercising pilot privileges. So for individuals such as yourself, the ball will be placed squarely in your court to prove beyond shadows of doubt that you are willing to prove you are worthy of flying privileges by doing everything they will ask of you.

If you have already submitted to an FAA medical examination and the AME has forward the details to the Aeromedical Certification Division (AMCD), you are going to receive a letter from the FAA informing you that you are not eligible for a medical certificate under the standards. But that there is a glimmer of hope if you are willing to do what they say. The letter you are going to get will have the specific details of what the FAA wants. Search back through this forum, and you will see that the requirements will include
  • A $6000 to $10,000 budget to pay for they various tests, examinations, and consultations the FAA will require of you.
  • A neuro cognative psychological screen of extreme depth that only a very few HIMS psychologists can administer, paid for out of your pocket
  • Direct sponsorship with a Senior HIMS AME, to whom you report to frequently and to whom you must demonstrate you are doing what is required to earn the medical certificate. There are very, very few of these AME’s, so plan onfrequent travel to see the one who is working your case.
  • 90 days of intensive alcohol dependency treatment.
  • 100% sobriety and abstinence from all alcohol. Wine with girlfriend and beer with buddies is now verboten, für immer
  • Documented attendance with alcohol dependency meetings
  • Many, many random pee in the cup whiz quizzes
  • And much, much more.
All of this must be done in exacting detail for you to be granted a Special Issuance medical. Only after continued proven 100% sobriety for a long period of time will you be allowed back into the normal issuance group.

Reading this and then saying back to us, “but I am not an alcoholic, I do not have a drinking problem” is an incorrect response.

That you blew 0.15 at one time and blood draw of 0.18 is a strong indicator that, per the FAA standards, there is a problem.

That you were only caught twice doesn't absolve you because no one knows how many other times in be tween or since the last one were you that intoxicated. The FAA is going to take the stance that you frequently drink to excess until you can prove that you don't.

The correct response is saying, “fine, I have a problem. Let’s get with meeting the requirements and make this thing happen.”

Humble honestly and humility wins the day over arrogance and unwillingness to accept and change.
Click to expand...


I went through this process for about the same reasons. 100% Correct on everything in this post.
 
When the FAA checks the national data base, both DUIs will be included. Driving records are not subject to court expungements even at the juvenile level. You can always get a copy of your BMV driving record if you don’t believe that is true.
 
Clip4 said:
When the FAA checks the national data base, both DUIs will be included. Driving records are not subject to court expungements even at the juvenile level. You can always get a copy of your BMV driving record if you don’t believe that is true.
Click to expand...

I do believe it’s true. I was unfortunately misled by the lawyer I had when I was a juvenile and will have to face the repercussions because of it.
Thanks for the post!
 
Tecan said:
I do believe it’s true. I was unfortunately misled by the lawyer I had when I was a juvenile and will have to face the repercussions because of it.
Thanks for the post!
Click to expand...
As you go through the process, please keep a journal of the process, steps, who you talk to, how it gets done, costs, time, details, and more.

If you are successful, a write up sharing your journey and the steps involved will be a very valuable thing to share with others who find themselves in the same space you are in now. Much the same way that reading the check ride reports helps other applicants know what to expect when they encounter the Pilot Examiner.
 
AggieMike88 said:
As you go through the process, please keep a journal of the process, steps, who you talk to, how it gets done, costs, time, details, and more.

If you are successful, a write up sharing your journey and the steps involved will be a very valuable thing to share with others who find themselves in the same space you are in now. Much the same way that reading the check ride reports helps other applicants know what to expect when they encounter the Pilot Examiner.
Click to expand...
No problem! I planned to from the start and as soon as everything is said and done regardless of the outcome I will present a report with the conclusion and experience thanks again for your time Aggie!
 
Expounding on one thing AggieMike said - whether or not you actually have a high tolerance to alcohol or are an alcoholic are irrelevant to the FAA. You fit the profile of the kind of person they think MIGHT be a problem and therefore you are to be handled like you are one of them. Too many people come through here with a chip on their shoulder about having to spend lots of money and be insulted by being treated like something they aren't.

I say this not because it applies to you, but because this forum is searchable and it will apply to someone else in the future. With a good attitude and good guidance, you'll get in the air, it just might take a while. Stick with it and stick around here. Nothing keeps you in aviation like hanging out with pilots.
 
My bet is:

FAA doesn’t care if you were juvenile. The question says “have you ever”.


At 0.18 you are very close to mandatory rehab. So FAA will require a HIMS psychiatrist. He will ask for collaterals and the second DUI will fall out. FAA will demand the DMV searches in all states of residence and even if it doesn’t say DUI” it will show the revocation....ringing the bell. With two events > 0.15 you’re going to be found dependent and without treatment...

Then you choices will be 2 years of proven sobriety and logged recovery activities, and concurrence of a HIMS current forensic psychiatrist, and then a special issuance for 2 years on a third class, until you are “cut loose”. Only then can you get a First class.

Or

You go to rehab. 160 hrs accredited. 90 AA meetings logged in 90 days. Urine testing....after ~8 months to HIMS psychiatrist + HIMS psychiatry evaluation. If favorable at year end you can get a 3 year special issuance, monitored,First Class. But for that you have to “Get it”.

FAA never expunged anything. Omitting when the afffadavit says “have your EVER in your life...” and you tell a discoverable untruth, means to them that you have not mastered truthfulness. Alcohol Abuse (2 events is abuse by 67.307 def) without truthiness pretty much Qualifies you for FAA dependence.

If you wish to avoid this scenario, best to come clean in your response to FAA....
Sorry to rain on you.....but this is HOW IT IS. FAA is very tough and it will “fall out”.
 
bbchien said:
My bet is:

FAA doesn’t care if you were juvenile. The question says “have you ever”.


At 0.18 you are very close to mandatory rehab. So FAA will require a HIMS psychiatrist. He will ask for collaterals and the second DUI will fall out. FAA will demand the DMV searches in all states of residence and even if it doesn’t say DUI” it will show the revocation....ringing the bell. With two events > 0.15 you’re going to be found dependent and without treatment...

Then you choices will be 2 years of proven sobriety and logged recovery activities, and concurrence of a HIMS current forensic psychiatrist, and then a special issuance for 2 years on a third class, until you are “cut loose”. Only then can you get a First class.

Or

You go to rehab. 160 hrs accredited. 90 AA meetings logged in 90 days. Urine testing....after ~8 months to HIMS psychiatrist + HIMS psychiatry evaluation. If favorable at year end you can get a 3 year special issuance, monitored,First Class. But for that you have to “Get it”.

FAA never expunged anything. Omitting when the afffadavit says “have your EVER in your life...” and you tell a discoverable untruth, means to them that you have not mastered truthfulness. Alcohol Abuse (2 events is abuse by 67.307 def) without truthiness pretty much Qualifies you for FAA dependence.

If you wish to avoid this scenario, best to come clean in your response to FAA....
Sorry to rain on you.....but this is HOW IT IS. FAA is very tough and it will “fall out”.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your insight and I totally understand, that’s why I came to this forum, I needed helpful honest advice. I have no problem with coming clean to FAA like I said earlier I know I made a mistake. I was just so use to not listing it I didn’t think about it. Not trying to use that as an excuse just the honest truth. Would you recommended myself calling FAA and reporting it when they open or waiting until I hear back from them? I’ll do whatever it takes to get my medical. I’m over two years clean (which I know is undocumented and doesn’t mean anything) and I have no urge to ever start again. I have no problem spending the time proving it to FAA even if it takes years. Once again thank you for your time Bruce I really appreciate all the advise and what to expect
 
bflynn said:
Expounding on one thing AggieMike said - whether or not you actually have a high tolerance to alcohol or are an alcoholic are irrelevant to the FAA. You fit the profile of the kind of person they think MIGHT be a problem and therefore you are to be handled like you are one of them. Too many people come through here with a chip on their shoulder about having to spend lots of money and be insulted by being treated like something they aren't.

I say this not because it applies to you, but because this forum is searchable and it will apply to someone else in the future. With a good attitude and good guidance, you'll get in the air, it just might take a while. Stick with it and stick around here. Nothing keeps you in aviation like hanging out with pilots.
Click to expand...
Thanks that’s really helpful, I actually got offered a job working at the school where my instructions are located. So thankfully even if it takes awhile I’ll still be around the fun, and my joy for flying will never die out. I totally understand that in FAA’s eyes They will see me as someone like that and I’ll prove to them I’m not no matter how many hurdles it takes.
 
Tecan said:
Would you recommended myself calling FAA
Click to expand...
While I know this question was directed at Dr. Bruce, I'll answer with my opinion.

Nooooooooo! Do not muddy the waters or create confusion for yourself by calling the FAA.

1) The person who does answer the phone won't be the right person to aid you in your quest.
2) The ones that are are very, very few in number, already carry a high workload, and are unlikely to take the phone call
3) Dr. Bruce has already outlined what needs to happen.

As I mentioned in my longer cut/paste, this is a case that is not something you wish to self-manage. Main reason why is you do not know the proper course towards success. You need to seek out and hire help. And this help is in the form of HIMS Aviation Medical Examiner. HIMS (Human Intervention Motivation Study) AMEs are trained in evaluating airmen for substance- or alcohol-related conditions or other mental conditions. HIMS AMEs can provide sponsorship and monitoring for such conditions when required by the FAA for medical certification purposes. The current list of HIMS AME's can be found at this link: https://goo.gl/WFmYKE

The HIMS AME will become your case manager and a sponsor to the FAA. They will be the ones that will determine the steps needed. And it is they who will build up the submission file (read, lots and lots of documents and documentation) that they FAA will require for you to be considered for an FAA Medical.

The "between the lines tone" I read in your responses is that you desire a successful outcome and are willing to take the journey. That is good. Your first step is to hire a guide to help you get to the successful end.
 
What has not been outlined for you here is the cost. Both in the terms of a lot of money and a lot of time. If you finish to process, good for you, but spending what is going to be close to $10,000 and who know how many hours of your life is not going to be easy.
 
AggieMike88 said:
While I know this question was directed at Dr. Bruce, I'll answer with my opinion.

Nooooooooo! Do not muddy the waters or create confusion for yourself by calling the FAA.

1) The person who does answer the phone won't be the right person to aid you in your quest.
2) The ones that are are very, very few in number, already carry a high workload, and are unlikely to take the phone call
3) Dr. Bruce has already outlined what needs to happen.

As I mentioned in my longer cut/paste, this is a case that is not something you wish to self-manage. Main reason why is you do not know the proper course towards success. You need to seek out and hire help. And this help is in the form of HIMS Aviation Medical Examiner. HIMS (Human Intervention Motivation Study) AMEs are trained in evaluating airmen for substance- or alcohol-related conditions or other mental conditions. HIMS AMEs can provide sponsorship and monitoring for such conditions when required by the FAA for medical certification purposes. The current list of HIMS AME's can be found at this link: https://goo.gl/WFmYKE

The HIMS AME will become your case manager and a sponsor to the FAA. They will be the ones that will determine the steps needed. And it is they who will build up the submission file (read, lots and lots of documents and documentation) that they FAA will require for you to be considered for an FAA Medical.

The "between the lines tone" I read in your responses is that you desire a successful outcome and are willing to take the journey. That is good. Your first step is to hire a guide to help you get to the successful end.
Click to expand...

Thanks mike!!! Ill Try to get in touch with one first thing tomorrow! I do, I know I messed up pretty bad in my past between the DUIs and not listing the first one on 8500-8 and I’ll do whatever it takes to get it set straight. No one else to blame besides myself
 
Clip4 said:
What has not been outlined for you here is the cost. Both in the terms of a lot of money and a lot of time. If you finish to process, good for you, but spending what is going to be close to $10,000 and who know how many hours of your life is not going to be easy.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the insight! I totally understand but it’s a small price to pay for a life of flying
 
Clip4 said:
What has not been outlined for you here is the cost.
Click to expand...
Ummmm Post #12?

Screen Shot 2019-03-10 at 4.33.53 PM.png
 
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