1st Cross Country through busy NE airspace

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Smoked2long

Filing Flight Plan
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MarkG
Looking for suggestions for a 5 hour X-country from KGMU, Greenville, SC to KOWD, Boston, MA. Planning on IFR flight stopping somewhere in between, maybe KFDK. Suggestions appreciated.
 
Smoked2long said:
Looking for suggestions for a 5 hour X-country from KGMU, Greenville, SC to KOWD, Boston, MA. Planning on IFR flight stopping somewhere in between, maybe KFDK. Suggestions appreciated.
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If you are flying below 10k’, I’d suggest KRIC or something with the understanding that you will probably be routed over JFK at 7k’.

One never knows but I find that NY ATC likes to keep transiting pistons along the coast and over NYC rather than around. Probably has to do with all the incoming from the west but don’t know.

On a clear day, NYC can be eye candy. Watching/listening to transatlantic traffic depart out of JFK and circling around you during their climb is neat.


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Not a clear day. Henri passage.
 
Bill Watson said:
If you are flying below 10k’, I’d suggest KRIC or something with the understanding that you will probably be routed over JFK at 7k’.

One never knows but I find that NY ATC likes to keep transiting pistons along the coast and over NYC rather than around. Probably has to do with all the incoming from the west but don’t know.

On a clear day, NYC can be eye candy. Watching/listening to transatlantic traffic depart out of JFK and circling around you during their climb is neat.


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cc4bb1999ecf45a499c54708654a6f7c.png

Not a clear day. Henri passage.
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I was hoping to stay on the west but looking at suggested previous routes it does appear that going on the coast could be the controllers proffered route. I need to be prepared.
 
Smoked2long said:
I was hoping to stay on the west but looking at suggested previous routes it does appear that going on the coast could be the controllers proffered route. I need to be prepared.
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As a former NYer and current Carolinian, the main thing to be prepared for is fast talking NY approach controllers and even faster talking (and harder to understand) Boston controllers. They are all really sharp, you be too.


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Bill Watson said:
As a former NYer and current Carolinian, the main thing to be prepared for is fast talking NY approach controllers and even faster talking (and harder to understand) Boston controllers. They are all really sharp, you be too.


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Think I’ll declare student pilot maybe they’ll slow down
 
One other option is to do the Hudson. Take the online course, go to COL VOR and from there to the Verazzano Narrows bridge, follow the procedure from there. Get to the Tappan Zee Bridge and then turn to OWD. If not, over JFK and get a few vectors then direct.
 
Bill Watson said:
If you are flying below 10k’, I’d suggest KRIC or something with the understanding that you will probably be routed over JFK at 7k’.

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Not sure why you'd use KRIC as a stop - Class C airport with relatively expensive fuel. Looking at GMU to JFK (assuming that the farthest east you'd want to be routed), I'd suggest KESN, KCGE, or KEZF (all have cafes also). Honestly IFR through NY airspace in a small plane can be a pain - you may get routed hither and yon. Simpler is just to get flight following, and either get a Bravo clearance at 5500 eastbound, over JFK, or just fly over the Bravo at 7500.
 
As Hang 4 suggested, when you get to NYC (Verazzano Narrows Bridge) , go down on the deck and fly up the Hudson River Exclusion at 800 - 900'. Then when you get north of the Tappan Zee Bridge (fine, the Mario Cuomo Bridge), head back off to Boston, Or fly all the way to Albany, make a right turn onto the Mass Pike (rt 90) and follow it to Boston. Very scenic, take lots of pictures.
It's very hip and suave to fly over Kennedy, but it's a crap shoot as to what they will have you do.
 
Stay below 10K if you can. My experience is that if you're at 14 or above they'll try to assign the "shark route" (MANTA intersection). I accepted it at 17,000 and at some point was assigned 15. I was probably out of glide range of shore for 5 minutes, at most. But there was enough ship traffic that landing near a ship was more than feasible if necessary (it wasn't necessary).

The route was up over calverton then into OWD.
 
Hang 4 said:
One other option is to do the Hudson. Take the online course, go to COL VOR and from there to the Verazzano Narrows bridge, follow the procedure from there. Get to the Tappan Zee Bridge and then turn to OWD. If not, over JFK and get a few vectors then direct.
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OP said IFR. I dont think the hudson is an option under IFR.
 
Bill Watson said:
As a former NYer and current Carolinian, the main thing to be prepared for is fast talking NY approach controllers and even faster talking (and harder to understand) Boston controllers. They are all really sharp, you be too.


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Click to expand...

Bawstin controlas hahd ta undastand..... psh :cool::cool::cool:
 
pfarber said:
OP said IFR. I dont think the hudson is an option under IFR.
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Two ways it could be done. If conditions are good VFR all the way to OWD, cancel in the air and fly the exclusion. There is also the Skyline Transition, which is in the Class B, following the Hudson, only higher IIRC, >1,300ft. No idea if that can actually be coordinated with NYC approach while IFR.
If IFR, it's a whole new ball of wax trying to get the computer to give a rational flight plan and then negotiating a more rational plan while in the air. If you come up through NJ, I've had reasonable luck using DIXIE V16 JFK V16 KEEPM as part of the route and getting direct pretty soon after KEEPM
 
Smoked2long said:
Looking for suggestions for a 5 hour X-country from KGMU, Greenville, SC to KOWD, Boston, MA. Planning on IFR flight stopping somewhere in between, maybe KFDK. Suggestions appreciated.
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KHGR is a nice stop, good food too but I'm impartial because it's my home airport. I did flight training out of KFDK.
 
Hang 4 said:
Two ways it could be done. If conditions are good VFR all the way to OWD, cancel in the air and fly the exclusion. There is also the Skyline Transition, which is in the Class B, following the Hudson, only higher IIRC, >1,300ft. No idea if that can actually be coordinated with NYC approach while IFR.
If IFR, it's a whole new ball of wax trying to get the computer to give a rational flight plan and then negotiating a more rational plan while in the air. If you come up through NJ, I've had reasonable luck using DIXIE V16 JFK V16 KEEPM as part of the route and getting direct pretty soon after KEEPM
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…and I fly IFR to keep things simple.


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wsuffa said:
(MANTA intersection)
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They sent you 30 miles out to sea!

I get it, the engine doesn't know it's over water, but unless you have the specific survival gear you'll be dead well before they find out (if they find you)

I always wonder if controllers are sensitive to SE piston and how far out they send them over water
 
Tantalum said:
They sent you 30 miles out to sea!

I get it, the engine doesn't know it's over water, but unless you have the specific survival gear you'll be dead well before they find out (if they find you)

I always wonder if controllers are sensitive to SE piston and how far out they send them over water
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Yes, and I chose to accept it.

The next trip was up over Poughkeepsie.

The choice to accept was based on risk management calculation on my part with specific knowledge of the ship traffic in and out of NY harbor. It was also summer, meaning that the water wasn't as cold as it would be in the winter.

The glide rate of my plane would leave about 5 minutes out of glide range. For those 5 minutes, the plan would have been to either land near one of the large cargo ships in/out of NY (or one of the garbage scows), or to glide as close as I could to the beaches and aim for one of the party boats or recreational boaters.

Everyone makes different risk management decisions based on their experience and knowledge. At that point I was flying a lot and kept close watch on the engine parameters.... and I'd have about an hour in the air before crossing to know how the plane was flying.

Same kind of thought process used for flights over the mountains or desert at night.
 
wsuffa said:
Yes, and I chose to accept it.

The next trip was up over Poughkeepsie.

The choice to accept was based on risk management calculation on my part with specific knowledge of the ship traffic in and out of NY harbor. It was also summer, meaning that the water wasn't as cold as it would be in the winter.

The glide rate of my plane would leave about 5 minutes out of glide range. For those 5 minutes, the plan would have been to either land near one of the large cargo ships in/out of NY (or one of the garbage scows), or to glide as close as I could to the beaches and aim for one of the party boats or recreational boaters.

Everyone makes different risk management decisions based on their experience and knowledge. At that point I was flying a lot and kept close watch on the engine parameters.... and I'd have about an hour in the air before crossing to know how the plane was flying.

Same kind of thought process used for flights over the mountains or desert at night.
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Makes sense. I'm usually very rational about risk tolerance and mitigation.. but water to me has an extra factor to it than mountains and desert. At least they might find you or the wreckage over land.. but something about that deep blue abyss, and the thought of surviving only to drown is awful
 
Hah! Years ago I flew a NORDO 1941 T-Craft up the coast from NJ to Long Island... at 400' to stay under the 500' TCA floor (before they called it class B) and just outside the surface area which ended at the shoreline 2.5 miles from JFK. It was interesting and more than a little frightening (both the water and the close jet traffic)... I returned north of the city and then down the Hudson corridor.

Interesting, today you could still legally do the beach cruise NORDO if you have no electrical system, but not the corridor.
 
Hi Mark, Alternatively might consider a fuel stop at:
KSBY (class D, $5.47/gal)
or
KGED (non-towered, $5.38/gal, airport restaurant)
-Per NOTAM, GCO unreliable; best to phone for IFR clearance

Preferred route for piston single-engine, 5,000: KSBY (or KGED) ATR V1 JFK V229 HFD V3 WOONS KOWD

-If uncomfortable crossing Delaware Bay (20nm over water at 5000), might consider requesting higher between ATR and LEEAH
-Tip: If filing, and cleared for higher at departure, say 7,000 on this route, ACY Approach or McGuire RAPCON usually descend piston single-engine (typically to 5,000) before hand-off to NY Kennedy (departure) sector (135.90). After northeast of BDR, higher available on request.

Enjoy flying Northeast airspace!
 
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