1957 Piper Apache for sale

[ApacheBob]

1957 PA23-160, TT 6046, Left and Right engine 400 SMOH, Left and Right props 700 SOH, 108-gallon, IFR, KA-134 audio panel, KLN90A GPS, KX155 Nav/Com, 4-place intercom, flies frequently (so number approximate), all AD's current, NDH, $47,500. Bob (630) 621-5544.

 

[tonycondon]

 

[AdamZ]

Are you getting a new Bird Bob?

 

[EdFred]

If only it was a TwinCo. Speaking of which I contacted a seller today. **what am I thinking?!? **

 

[Richard]

Here's a twin with definite left turning tendencies.

Actually, if you don't sell it by July there is a strong prob I will be in the market.

 

[ApacheBob]

I have four kids and the Apache is a four seater. One of my buddies at Aurora has a six-seater (Cherokee 6). A 1/4 share may be available.
I have put hundreds of hours on the Apache in the last three years. It flies great. Pulled back to economy cruise, it drinks about 14 gallons per hour (both engines included).
ApacheBob

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I have four kids and the Apache is a four seater. One of my buddies at Aurora has a six-seater (Cherokee 6). A 1/4 share may be available.
I have put hundreds of hours on the Apache in the last three years. It flies great. Pulled back to economy cruise, it drinks about 14 gallons per hour (both engines included).
ApacheBob

Bob,

The thing that's stopped me from buying such an old bird is fear of Big Maintenance. What have you averaged per hour for mx? That's sure a low cost of entry for getting into a twin...

 

[ApacheBob]

Because I have flown over 300 hours in the bird since I bought her in 2003, the per-hour cost has not been too bad. I would estimate about $115 per hour for maintenance. The new windshield is nice.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Because I have flown over 300 hours in the bird since I bought her in 2003, the per-hour cost has not been too bad. I would estimate about $115 per hour for maintenance. The new windshield is nice.

You mean $115/hr including maintenance (B)) or "$115/hr for maintenance" hairraise?

 

[AdamZ]

I think he means includinng mx but Bob should answer that. Bob what is the useful load in the Apache?

 

[James_Dean]

You mean $115/hr including maintenance (B)) or "$115/hr for maintenance" hairraise?

It's costing me $140/hr to run my saratoga. If he's running a twin for $115 total I'll be shocked.

James Dean

 

[ApacheBob]

It's costing me $140/hr to run my saratoga. If he's running a twin for $115 total I'll be shocked.

James Dean

Two engines cost money. It would be much much lower, but I got stung by a friendly AD. The prop service that inspected the props prior to my purchase was "blacklisted?" after I bought the aircraft.
The nice folks at the FAA insisted that I have the props inspected, again. Once they were almost completely apart and zero defects noted, the fine folks at a Palwaukee prop shop said that they could not re-assemble my props without a complete inspection. Again, the props passed without any problems.
This fun little game cost yours truly $7,000 and three months. But the folks at the FAA said I should have peace of mind. Lucky me.
Meanwhile, she runs like a champ. I've flown to Florida, Denver and many points in between. The cabin is huge.
ApacheBob

 

[ApacheBob]

Useful load (zero fuel) is about 1,300 pounds. She still climbs great at gross.
I have not used the aircraft for flight training.
ApacheBob

 

[gprellwitz]

Darn. I raised it to Leslie, but she says "not right now". I mean, we're both interested in going for commercial multi, and we fly >150hrs/year between us. At rental rates, that's more than $20K/year!

 

[ScottM]

Darn. I raised it to Leslie, but she says "not right now". I mean, we're both interested in going for commercial multi, and we fly >150hrs/year between us. At rental rates, that's more than $20K/year!

You know if we got 4 or 5 people who all wanted to get their multi this would be a good partnership. Say get it and sell it two years after we all get the rating. That would not be too bad a deal.

 

[JHW]

Darn. I raised it to Leslie, but she says "not right now". I mean, we're both interested in going for commercial multi, and we fly >150hrs/year between us. At rental rates, that's more than $20K/year!

$20K, how do you figure ? if you just want a commercial multi license, spend about 8 hours in a rental seminol

maybe buy the apache as a way to build 500 hrs toward some poverty level job, but don't buy just to get a rating

 

[flyingcheesehead]

$20K, how do you figure ? if you just want a commercial multi license, spend about 8 hours in a rental seminol

maybe buy the apache as a way to build 500 hrs toward some poverty level job, but don't buy just to get a rating

I think Grant was saying that with their TOTAL flying time it's over $20K/year, not just the multi rating itself.

I'm thinking of dropping the dough to get my multi rating in a DA42 TwinStar. They're going for $42.50/hr more than the 1978 Seneca that's for rent locally.

 

[gprellwitz]

I think Grant was saying that with their TOTAL flying time it's over $20K/year, not just the multi rating itself.

I'm thinking of dropping the dough to get my multi rating in a DA42 TwinStar. They're going for $42.50/hr more than the 1978 Seneca that's for rent locally.

That's right, total over $20K/year. Merde, I wish I hadn't calculated that!

And a 310 is what I have available at my FBO. Unless we buy, that's probably what we'd fly multi, so we'd train in that (since we'd need the hours for insurance anyway). We'll get our commercials first in any case.

Not going for any job with this; just flying for fun. Because of that, it'll probably only be one of us getting the multi rating. The cost to keep us both proficient would be astronomical!

 

[JHW]

...I'm thinking of dropping the dough to get my multi rating in a DA42 TwinStar. They're going for $42.50/hr more than the 1978 Seneca that's for rent locally.

I don't think you can train for the multi-initial in it, not enough levers

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I don't think you can train for the multi-initial in it, not enough levers

If you're referring to the complex requirement and needing a "controllable pitch propeller," while the reg may seem to read that way, the FAA disagrees and has stated that the DA42 and similar aircraft ARE considered complex.

1. PURPOSE. The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has determined that airplanes equipped with retractable landing gear, flaps, and a full authority digital engine control (FADEC) meet the definition of being a complex airplane and may be used for commercial pilot and flight instructor certification.

The full file is attached:

 

[Michael]

What are the numbers Bob?
Speed, Load etc.

 

[JHW]

If you're referring to the complex requirement and needing a "controllable pitch propeller," while the reg may seem to read that way, the FAA disagrees and has stated that the DA42 and similar aircraft ARE considered complex.
The full file is attached:

that's not the whole story, it's also autofeather

 

[bbchien]

That's right, total over $20K/year. Merde, I wish I hadn't calculated that!

And a 310 is what I have available at my FBO. Unless we buy, that's probably what we'd fly multi, so we'd train in that (since we'd need the hours for insurance anyway). We'll get our commercials first in any case.

Not going for any job with this; just flying for fun. Because of that, it'll probably only be one of us getting the multi rating. The cost to keep us both proficient would be astronomical!

That's why i was asking you guys about when you're buying a Skylane last weekend....

 

[gprellwitz]

That's why i was asking you guys about when you're buying a Skylane last weekend....

Yeah, I know. Believe me, I know! Hey, want to help us finance one?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

that's not the whole story, it's also autofeather

Point being... ?

 

[JHW]

Point being... ?

last I heard (a few months ago) the kansas city FSDO is telling flight schools that the twinstar will not be able to be used for initial-multi training without restrictions.

You would have a limitation on your license "restricted to autofeather" or something like that, similar to the centerline-thrust restriction if you train in a skymaster

 

[tonycondon]

ive never heard that, lets hope not. DA42 would make a heck of a good trainer.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

last I heard (a few months ago) the kansas city FSDO is telling flight schools that the twinstar will not be able to be used for initial-multi training without restrictions.

Interesting.

The FAAO 8710.3E, the examiner's handbook, says this:

The feathering of one propeller must be demonstrated in flight in multiengine airplanes equipped with propellers which can be feathered and unfeathered.

Technically, you can feather and the props on the DA42, it happens automatically when you shut off the engine masters and the prop is unfeathered when you turn the engine master back on. Ref. DA42 POH sections 3.5.3 and 3.5.4.

Back to the examiner's handbook, section 5(I)(26) "Limitations" does not show any limitation for autofeathering. The limitations section of chapter 9 (Private pilots) also does not mention the existence of such a limitation, and Chapter 10 (Commercial pilots) refers back to limitations from chapter 9.

So, it would appear that the KC FSDO is wrong, for now...