182 STOL jump plane killing my x-wind landings

[flhrci]

Landings are not pat of the IR PTS,

I agree with that but you also have to be flying safely. We landed cause the DPE knew I needed a break but I landed the Archer really hard. Later on I landed the Twin Comanche somewhat hard on the comm-multi ride and the DPE failed me because of it.

David

 

[denverpilot]

80 is wayyyy too fast for a 182-even with partial flaps.

Keep in mind his ASI in that old bird may be MPH. But it's still too fast.

We're not getting into the "no slips with flaps" crap are we?



I've done hard slips in everything from a 140 to a 208b with full flaps and it's OK, I'd be disappointed if someone did a short field without a slip and flaps!



For x winds I have gone both ways with flaps on approach, only time I reduce flaps is for better penetration speed in gusts and turbulence, I still like to cross the threshold at vref





Also flew a 550 powered narrow body 182 and I would bring that in with some speed as it liked to touch down hard on the nose wheel if the speed fell off much (small tail + big engine and prop).

I went out last night and purposefully slipped the hell out of the 182 with 40 flap. Night, runway waaaaay made if the engine quit, use the slip to slough off tons of energy, straighten out at 10', hold it off... Let the flaps do the rest... Was fun. Made the 1000' marker turning base right at the runway end. I'm sure it'd freak the "stabilized approach" true believers out, but was stable and full rudder on the high side from the beginning of the base to final turn all the way down to the runway. I wished I had more rudder.

You're just too fast for an airplane with STOL that stalls under 40 MPH (with full flaps?).



1.3 times 40 = _______. Use that.

Depends on which STOL he has installed. Some are not that effective, thus my plea that he go find the frakking POH addendum or at least the required STC paperwork so he could find a reasonable book number... OR... Go find out at altitude. There's method to my madness.

 

[Clark1961]

I went out last night and purposefully slipped the hell out of the 182 with 40 flap. Night, runway waaaaay made if the engine quit, use the slip to slough off tons of energy, straighten out at 10', hold it off... Let the flaps do the rest... Was fun. Made the 1000' marker turning base right at the runway end. I'm sure it'd freak the "stabilized approach" true believers out, but was stable and full rudder on the high side from the beginning of the base to final turn all the way down to the runway. I wished I had more rudder.

Sounds like fun. If you ever run into Teller ask him about "stabilized" approach and precipitating a PA-28 onto the runway at FTG. Not quite like your STOL bird but there's a reason not many PA-28s have kits (they don't need'em for the short/steep landing).

 

[denverpilot]

Sounds like fun. If you ever run into Teller ask him about "stabilized" approach and precipitating a PA-28 onto the runway at FTG. Not quite like your STOL bird but there's a reason not many PA-28s have kits (they don't need'em for the short/steep landing).

I haven't seen him in a long time. Dude must be busy.

I think the typical 3 degree type "stabilized" approaches at night to KAPA 17L leave me very few options other than the lighted driving range if the engine quits. And frankly, it's not big enough. And it's going to hurt. There isn't anything else to land on there that'll work out well.

Too many friends have had night engine-outs. One can't always be in a position to glide to a runway, but if I can choose, I'll choose to.

I wonder about the sanity of the pilots waaaaay north of Arapahoe Road over the reservoir doing laps. Plus the requested noise abatement is to stay inside of Arapahoe. Looks cool from the parking lot of the gun club, but they're not going to make either runway from there with a good headwind. Calm, maybe at least clear the rather stout airport fence. Streets, Peoria and Lima are both too busy during the day. Maybe at night. Lima has two stop lights to miss. Peoria is probably the place to go. At least you could taxi up to South Metro Fire Station 35's front door. LOL!

 

[GCA319]

Keep in mind his ASI in that old bird may be MPH. But it's still too fast.




I went out last night and purposefully slipped the hell out of the 182 with 40 flap. Night, runway waaaaay made if the engine quit, use the slip to slough off tons of energy, straighten out at 10', hold it off... Let the flaps do the rest... Was fun. Made the 1000' marker turning base right at the runway end. I'm sure it'd freak the "stabilized approach" true believers out, but was stable and full rudder on the high side from the beginning of the base to final turn all the way down to the runway. I wished I had more rudder.




Depends on which STOL he has installed. Some are not that effective, thus my plea that he go find the frakking POH addendum or at least the required STC paperwork so he could find a reasonable book number... OR... Go find out at altitude. There's method to my madness.

The 182 I fly at work reads MPH. 80 is still way too fast like you said even with 1/2 flaps

 

[spiderweb]

Bear in mind, as well, that with a 1,000 lb variation in loading, the numbers change.

 

[Henning]

Exactly, in jump configuration with only a pilot, the plane, especially with a STOL kit, the numbers in the book, generated for gross weight, are way too high. Even the stall speed numbers in the STOL addendum will be too high. Sheri Marlin hhad a 57 with just the Horton cuff and when I did slow flight in it I ended up losing the ASI indication before I stalled, and that was with a complete interior and two people.

 

[bluerooster]

80 on final is too fast.

+1 In Dads '59 it was 70 on final, lest ye float past the runway, even with 40degrees.
And for departure stalls (power on) you would be almost at the top of a loop before it would start to get mushy.

 

[denverpilot]

So I want to know if the OP has had a chance to try it. Any updates?

 

[Dan Thomas]

+1 on the 80 being way too fast.

Just because the wheels are on the ground doesn't mean that the wing isn't still flying.

Most airplanes never get close to stalling in the flare. There just isn't the gear geometry there to let the nose get that high unless you get the tail to bang onto the runway first.

So it's still flying even in a normal touchdown speed and the wing is still lifting as long as there's airflow over it. If there's a crosswind the upwind wing will rise. I've seen way too many pilots neutralize the ailerons right after touchdown. They think the flight's over. Then the upwind wing comes up. As it touches down just add more and more aileron until it's at the stops and hold it there until the airplane is stopped. Those ailerons are still working just fine, even in the so-called "full-stall landing."

One must remember that the relative wind comes more and more from the side as the airplane slows. If the airplane is at 60 knots and the 90-degree crosswind is 20 knots, the relative wind is 18 degrees off the nose. At 40 knots it has increased to 27 degrees. At 25 knots in the rollout it's now 39 degrees off the nose. If the pilot isn't still using aileron he could get himself into a bunch of trouble.


Dan

 

[txflyer]

Get an AOA or lift reserve indicator and kiss your ASI goodbye....

 

[flhrci]

So I want to know if the OP has had a chance to try it. Any updates?

Nope. I got one chance to fly the airplane this past weekend and it was a jump run with a pilot observer onboard. Once I get cleared to fly jump runs myself, I might be able to try something real quick after pushing out the skydivers. I won't be allowed to fly it any more without being on a jump run since it is a business asset.

I slowed the plane for landing more than last time and it worked for me. Still a lot of float and you do have to fly it till it stops, but other than that, an uneventful landing.

Still have to get the name of the STOL kit. Someone told me and I forgot already.

David

 

[flhrci]

I've seen way too many pilots neutralize the ailerons right after touchdown. They think the flight's over. Then the upwind wing comes up. As it touches down just add more and more aileron until it's at the stops and hold it there until the airplane is stopped. Those ailerons are still working just fine, even in the so-called "full-stall landing."

You are spot on with what happened and what I did that got me into this stupid situation of having to go fly crosswinds sometime with the Chief Pilot. Its embarrassing and now I have a 5 knot x-wind restriction on me at the dropzone. 600 hour commercial pilot/ex-CFI with student pilot limitations. It sucks when you can't fly enough to keep your skills sharp.

David

 

[denverpilot]

Ahh, this too, shall pass. Ailerons (not that I don't make this mistake) should continue all the way to the stop after landing, if you want to break your bad habit of ignoring them after touchdown. Same thing with the elevator. If it isn't full aft, keep pulling.

Make yourself lock the yoke hard over and full aft before taxiing off the runway and then setting for taxi as needed, full deflection. You'll bust that bad habit of letting them go limp after landing in no time.

 

[Morne]

First, a 1962 Cessna 182 is an "E" variant, not an "A." The differences between those two variants are many. Jump guys like the old narrow body straight tail "A-D" variants. Comfort flyers, like me, prefer the wide body "E" and later variants. I fly an "E" with a STOL kit.

Exactly, in jump configuration with only a pilot, the plane, especially with a STOL kit, the numbers in the book, generated for gross weight, are way too high. Even the stall speed numbers in the STOL addendum will be too high. Sheri Marlin hhad a 57 with just the Horton cuff and when I did slow flight in it I ended up losing the ASI indication before I stalled, and that was with a complete interior and two people.

This. Solo power off stalls in my C182E occur with no indicated airspeed at all. That plane will fly STUPIDLY SLOW before giving up the lift ghost. I kind of like that about my bird.

If you're really flying an "E" and need practice time let me know. I'll bring my STOL bird down to Columbus and let you slow flight the heck out of it so you can really see how they slow down. Then we'll do some short field landings at some actual short fields. By the time we're done you'll be down and stopped within 900' of the numbers. Maybe the chief pilot will like the technique you settle into and maybe he won't, but you'll know how to plant that puppy regardless of crosswind.

I've landed in some gnarly crosswinds over the past few years with my bird. It can be done, even for a fairly low time pilot like me (sub 500 hours). You just have to get used to her, is all.

 

[flhrci]

So, bringing this back up because I had five flights in this plane yesterday taking up skydivers. This was the first time flying by myself without at least a pilot observer on board.

So, five uneventful takeoffs, 5 somewhat shaky landings as the crosswinds started to pick up with the heating of the day. I got her down and landed but would get pushed off the center line some before I got the drift corrected. As I noted in a different new thread, my nerves were on edge all day and I was quite stressed. So this probably affected my landings. When your mouth is all dried out and voice is going away, you are stressed and dehydrated to.

Anyway, the plane likes 80mph on approach. It just seems to settle into it with a good approach angle and power off. So, no big deal any more. Getting used to it. 80mph is nearly 70 knots anyways. The issue is that with jsut me in the plane and no seats the plane is light. She doesn't want to slow down a lot unless you put in 3 or 4 notches of flaps. 2 notches seems to work real good. I say notches because of the Johnson bar flaps. You have to force the nose up a little in the flare because the nose is heavy and wants to land flat.

This plane is like a 172 in width and has a big engine in it for those not having sen an old 182.

I finally looked at what there is of the STC and the wing extensions are A.R.T. extensions and done in the late 90's.. It only gives data on increased payload and increased service ceiling. There is no info on stall speeds or other speeds. Very little information is there in fact.

David

 

[denverpilot]

Sounds like you just need more time and perhaps someone to show you that it's possible to stick it. If it's drifting either before touchdown or after, you aren't nearly aggressive enough about correcting it.

It goes where you make it go up until you run out of rudder and can't make it go any further that way.

Don't be passive about it. Move that yoke and your feet more. Start moving as soon as you see it begin to move the direction you don't want. Better at first to over control and have to remove your own control inputs and wiggle back and forth under your control than to sit back and be a passenger in gusts. You're the pilot. Pilot that beeeyotch!

That's my best guess judging on the limited information provided. Some taildragger time where if you aren't aggressive you ARE going in the ditch, would do your feet and brain some good, if you can find one to rent. Get AFTER it. Nose moves a touch off center, force it back there. It's possible and flying isn't passive.

It'll help your nervousness too. Nothing to be nervous about if you PUT the airplane exactly where you want it.

Treat it as a goal even in light winds to put the nose wheel right on the paint just because you can.

 

[flhrci]

I agree with you Nate. Not beign aggressive enough on the controls. I know the problem, I just have to deal with it. And fix it. And I will. Yesterday was the first time I had flown it so light and it was noticeable.

Have you heard of that A.R.T. wing extensions kit I mentioned? It works. Don't know much else about it.

David

 

[denverpilot]

Haven't heard of it, but there's a lot of mods out for various Cessnas due to their street popularity. Especially in the heyday.

 

[yakdriver]

You are way too fast on final. 65-70 mph is about right. I fly a 56 182 jump plane with tip extensions and I think a Horton STOL kit. You are also not being aggressive enough on the X wind correction. Land on the upwind main and crank in full aileron deflection as you touch down and hold it all the way through the roll out. I have landed this one in 25kt direct crosswind with no problem. This one also has speed brakes and in February he put a Texas Skyways O-550 300hp on it. Climbs like crazy comes out of the sky like a shot duck with the speed brakes. Don

 

[denverpilot]

You are way too fast on final. 65-70 mph is about right. I fly a 56 182 jump plane with tip extensions and I think a Horton STOL kit. You are also not being aggressive enough on the X wind correction. Land on the upwind main and crank in full aileron deflection as you touch down and hold it all the way through the roll out. I have landed this one in 25kt direct crosswind with no problem. This one also has speed brakes and in February he put a Texas Skyways O-550 300hp on it. Climbs like crazy comes out of the sky like a shot duck with the speed brakes. Don

That sounds fun.

 

[FastEddieB]

No reason to add dehydration into the equation.

If it's even suspected, carry along a CamelBak or equivalent.

Seriously - even mild dehydration can lead to performance degradation, and long term can precipitate kidney stones if you're at all susceptible to them.

 

[FastEddieB]

I fly a 56 182 jump plane with tip extensions and I think a Horton STOL kit.

Don,

Would that not be a good thing to know?

Just thinking if there's an STC, a POH supplement is probably required, possibly giving new performance charts and maybe even some new limitations and/or procedures.

Not finding fault - it's just the kind of thing I'd want to know with some certainty.

 

[yakdriver]

Don,

Would that not be a good thing to know?

Just thinking if there's an STC, a POH supplement is probably required, possibly giving new performance charts and maybe even some new limitations and/or procedures.

Not finding fault - it's just the kind of thing I'd want to know with some certainty.

I did review the handbook before flying it but that was 4 years ago. I have also stalled the airplane in all configurations to see what the ASI indicates in this airplane to accurately figure approach speeds. Stock performance charts don't mean a whole lot except for the gross weight density altitude take off distances. As for landing speeds with the stripped out interior and usually less than 10 gallons of gas you are around the empty weight of the average 182. Don

 

[Alexb2000]

Like blanking out the rudder, which I mentioned. I also mentioned how I (and lots of other folks) dealt with it to maintain a slow touch down speed and full control authority.

I believe everyone should feel comfortable landing in 25 knots crosswinds with full flaps, full stall, landings. What happens in an emergency if there is a short patch of open space, but a crosswind? I personally do not find issues in the Cessna's rudder blanking with full flaps. Regardless the other thing someone can do is just goose the throttle right before touchdown if you run out of rudder. Your hand is on it anyway.