182 Operating Expenses

[Groundpounder]

Can someone here that owns a 182 post what their monthly and/or annual operating expenses are? Trying to crunch some numbers on a possible flying club purchase.

Thanks.

 

[WannFly]

Bad idea

 

[Groundpounder]

Bad idea

Which part, asking people for their expenses, crunching numbers, or starting a flying club?

 

[EdFred]

It's going to vary airplane to airplane. Perhaps even wildly. About the only thing you could reasonably plan on is around 13ghp in cruise.
(waits for someone to chime in with "nuh uh, I get 11.5 consistently")

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Can someone here that owns a 182 post what their monthly and/or annual operating expenses are? Trying to crunch some numbers on a possible flying club purchase.

Thanks.

I've got a 180... so pretty close.

I burn mogas in mine so that brings the fuel costs down significantly to about $42/hr. (12gph)
oil change costs ~$110 every 50 hours = $2.2/hr
30k for an engine over 1500 hours = $20/hr
Annual inspection costs ~$1000.
So roughly $74/hr purely on operating costs.

Things this doesn't include:
Insurance
Hangar
Upgrades
Unforeseen maintenance issues

Edit:
You could go really nuts and approximate each components lifetime and build a reserve into your hourly expenses, but I've just been handling them as they come up:
Complete static system rebuild
Rebuilt entire tail
New tires/tubes

Then upgrades are too numerous to count and going.

 

[WannFly]

Which part, asking people for their expenses, crunching numbers, or starting a flying club?

The first 2

 

[Groundpounder]

It's going to vary airplane to airplane. Perhaps even wildly. About the only thing you could reasonably plan on is around 13ghp in cruise.
(waits for someone to chime in with "nuh uh, I get 11.5 consistently")

I know, just want to get a ballpark feel for costs.

I've got a 180... so pretty close.

I burn mogas in mine so that brings the fuel costs down significantly to about $42/hr. (12gph)
oil change costs ~$110 every 50 hours = $2.2/hr
30k for an engine over 1500 hours = $20/hr
Annual inspection costs ~$1000.
So roughly $74/hr purely on operating costs.

Things this doesn't include:
Insurance
Hangar
Upgrades
Unforeseen maintenance issues

Edit:
You could go really nuts and approximate each components lifetime and build a reserve into your hourly expenses, but I've just been handling them as they come up:
Complete static system rebuild
Rebuilt entire tail
New tires/tubes

Then upgrades are too numerous to count and going.

That is good, thanks. Not going to fine tooth it down to each component, that will drive anyone nuts.

The first 2

 

[FlyBoyAndy]

I'm in a 5 person partnership with a 1976 182P, and I will get you the numbers at some point, but all of us pay $100/hr to fly wet and $150 a month for our fee. We have a small loan that some of this goes to. The rest is for hangar, insurance, annual and so on.

 

[Trevor3431]

We have a 2011 T182T. As far as operating costs for the past 6 years it has been about $180/hour. I would try to stay away from any turbo normalized Skylanes. They substantially drive up maintenance costs and the TBO is reduced as well (and there is a good chance it won't make it to overhaul). A non-turbo version will run you about $25 less per hour. Just be careful with insurance if you are low time as the insurance minimums can be 500 hours total time. Annual for me is about $4,000 however I am based at KFXE so it is more expensive here (I won't even mention how much the hangar is). In reality you won't be looking at much more maintenance than a Skyhawk and most used Skylanes were not at flight schools due to them being high performance so you won't have to worry about buying something which was abused. It is a fun plane and worth every penny.

 

[bradg33]

I'd add at least 20% to whatever individual owners are telling you for operating expenses. In my experience, flying club members tend to be nearly as hard on airplanes as renters, despite the fact that they should feel like "owners" and take better care of them. Members will break door handles, seat recline mechanisms, etc. much for frequently than a true "owner" will.

 

[Groundpounder]

We have a 2011 T182T. As far as operating costs for the past 6 years it has been about $180/hour. I would try to stay away from any turbo normalized Skylanes. They substantially drive up maintenance costs and the TBO is reduced as well (and there is a good chance it won't make it to overhaul). A non-turbo version will run you about $25 less per hour. Just be careful with insurance if you are low time as the insurance minimums can be 500 hours total time. Annual for me is about $4,000 however I am based at KFXE so it is more expensive here (I won't even mention how much the hangar is). In reality you won't be looking at much more maintenance than a Skyhawk and most used Skylanes were not at flight schools due to them being high performance so you won't have to worry about buying something which was abused. It is a fun plane and worth every penny.

Good info, thanks. I used to work for Banyan at FXE looooong ago. Interesting airport.

 

[neilw2]

I'm in a 5 person partnership with a 1976 182P, and I will get you the numbers at some point, but all of us pay $100/hr to fly wet and $150 a month for our fee. We have a small loan that some of this goes to. The rest is for hangar, insurance, annual and so on.

This is pretty close to what we do. For my 79Q that I own with the other guys it's $100/hr + $250/mo. The hourly rate adjusts slightly if there is a large uptick in fuel prices. This is supposed to cover a OH fund however our engine decided it needed a OH before we planned it, so this year is a example of a bad year for me

Expenses as I see it

Variable hourly rated
$80/fuel (15 gph at $5.50) - you can do better on fuel economy and fuel cost if you are smart
$15/hr- Engine and prop reserve

Annual Fixed costs
Annuals/IFR Cert- 3k (if nothing is wrong)- could vary significantly but this is about what we budget
Insurance- $1800
Hangar- $350/mo
GPS/Misc/Reserve- $3k

That being said we have had to assess additional charges 2 times in my 4 years of ownership, but like I said the OH really came up on us quick!

 

[Sinistar]

Our 182P has been running about $120/hr - based on 2 annuals, some repairs and 108hrs flown last year.

That is a all-in number so includes engine reserve + hangar + insurance + fuel + avg annual mx.

But our panel is simple, no ADS-B, RNAV capability, etc. So no big fancy avionics problems. The plane is instrument capable dual VOR and DME but not definitely "modern".

Most of that has been training and/or flights of less than 2hrs. I usually dial it back to about 145mph over the ground (no wind) and average a bit over 10gph. Last night for example was 1.1hrs and 11 gallons.

Our hangar isn't great but it is cheap and secure which keeps our costs down. And we've mainly been buying 100LL at either $4.55 or $4.75 and combined with pulling back the power, keeps the fuel prices decent for a 182. We have the mogas STC but do not use it.

 

[Trevor3431]

Good info, thanks. I used to work for Banyan at FXE looooong ago. Interesting airport.

Nice! I have an office in the Banyan building on the second floor. Beautiful FBO but their fuel prices are outrageous. Over $7/gallon for Jet A and 100LL

 

[MountainDude]

We are 3 partners in a 1966J model. Each member pays $133 per month and $26 per hour of flight (dry). This covers our tiedown, insurance, XMweather, annual, and engine reserve. It does not cover a few extra expenses we have had over the years (engine monitor, audio panel, ELT).

 

[Topper]

Just sold my 79Q. Annuals typically ran 1200.00, garmin subscription was around 800.00. Hanger 250.00 per month and I planned around 15 gal per hour, but did a little better. Didn’t have much unscheduled maintenance during my ownership, but I wou”d plan 1k for budgeting purposes.

 

[Clip4]

Can someone here that owns a 182 post what their monthly and/or annual operating expenses are? Trying to crunch some numbers on a possible flying club purchase.

Thanks.

I would not recommend a 182 with a Continental engine for a club. You will experiance cylinder problems and the firewall is easily damaged from bad landings.

 

[mtuomi]

Just sold my 79Q. Annuals typically ran 1200.00, garmin subscription was around 800.00. Hanger 250.00 per month and I planned around 15 gal per hour, but did a little better. Didn’t have much unscheduled maintenance during my ownership, but I wou”d plan 1k for budgeting purposes.

1k....per month ???

 

[MtnMarcus]

It's going to vary airplane to airplane. Perhaps even wildly. About the only thing you could reasonably plan on is around 13ghp in cruise.
(waits for someone to chime in with "nuh uh, I get 11.5 consistently")

Really Dude C'mon.....it's 13.2gph. Seriously that's what it is and yes I am messing with you.
My annuals minus the one I needed a new engine are about 3K give or take.
Insurance is around 700-900/yr.....cant remember exactly, that's with 70K hull value and I am around 350-400 hrs vfr pilot
Hangar costs - expensive where I am - $350/month

I don't breakdown every penny like a lot of guys do and just write the check when I need to. Pretty inexpensive plane to own and operate.

 

[MtnMarcus]

I would not recommend a 182 with a Continental engine for a club. You will experiance cylinder problems and the firewall is easily damaged from bad landings.

I think the bent firewall thing is overblown. I went into ownership paranoid about it, and I think the plane is easier to land than a 172. My rule, although never implemented fcross, is that if I bounce and am in the 65kt or below range I will go around. I have seen these videos/heard stories of guys porpoising and just letting it get progressively worse and not doing anything about it. I don't get it.....just go around. OR, just have your procedure be if you bounce go around.

 

[Shawn]

Hourly cost is irrelevant in my book cuz so many cost are fixed regardless of how much you fly...unless you are just looking for a justification.

I average about $1200/ annual and about $800-$1200/yr in random Mx in my 182P.

 

[Clip4]

I think the bent firewall thing is overblown. I went into ownership paranoid about it, and I think the plane is easier to land than a 172. My rule, although never implemented fcross, is that if I bounce and am in the 65kt or below range I will go around. I have seen these videos/heard stories of guys porpoising and just letting it get progressively worse and not doing anything about it. I don't get it.....just go around. OR, just have your procedure be if you bounce go around.

In clubs the average member flys two hours a month. That means you have members flying a lot and some members flying 4 hours a year.

The plane itself is part of the issue due to the engine mount - firewall damage can result from crappy landings a 172 can withstand without damage. The issue is you have a heavier plane exerting forces on the nose gear, and not a very good design when things get botched.

The later 182s and the 182RGs with the O540s have a different mount and this is not an issue.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Just to throw in the mix-
-182 I0470
-12-13 gph cruise (10 gph just messing around at 18” and 110 kts)
-Annual $1200 trunk A&P, $1750 FBO (I used FBO)
-1 qt oil per 10 hrs
-insurance $1500 (don’t absolutely need it)
-hangar $175/mo (can tie down for less)
-oil change 50 hrs
-scheduled maintenance- include some reserve for cost of new engine and labor divided by remaining TBO to get hourly cost (crapshoot)
-Unscheduled maintenance- Crapshoot. Radios, gauges, GPS, flaps, etc.
-upgrades - seat belts, gauges, radios
-other- headsets, flight bag, first aid kit, extinguisher, cowl plugs, polish (and anything else you can dream up with the Aircraft Spruce catalogue).

 

[Topper]

1k....per month ???

Per year for additional items that may come up.

 

[Topper]

I think my insurance started at 1,200 per year and dropped as my hours increased and I added instrument rating, last premium was a little over 600.00 for a 90k hull value.

 

[denverpilot]

It's going to vary airplane to airplane. Perhaps even wildly. About the only thing you could reasonably plan on is around 13ghp in cruise.
(waits for someone to chime in with "nuh uh, I get 11.5 consistently")

Hahaha. I honestly can say that, on a carbureted O-470 that spends the vast majority of its time above 6000’ MSL, because... home airport elevation potato... and cruises around 9000’ typically.

We have long term (almost ten years, wow! - a few of those before I joined the airplane co-ownership) numbers on it too, but we always burn more on trips to visit y’all lowlanders.

As far as the cost numbers on a 182 go, there’s significant but not huge changes in operating costs between the O-470s and the restarts, and definitely a big jump in fuel costs in the T182T, so one has to define which 182 one is talking about. And the R182 is a whole different animal, too.

And of course, acquisition costs are hugely different between all of the models, even inside of the carb’d O-470 years, if you go all the way back to the early straight tails and Johnson Bar flap models, or all the way up to the lawyers and liability cost laden R models through the T182T.

So, what kind of 182 is the OP looking for?

 

[Groundpounder]

Hahaha. I honestly can say that, on a carbureted O-470 that spends the vast majority of its time above 6000’ MSL, because... home airport elevation potato... and cruises around 9000’ typically.

We have long term (almost ten years, wow! - a few of those before I joined the airplane co-ownership) numbers on it too, but we always burn more on trips to visit y’all lowlanders.

As far as the cost numbers on a 182 go, there’s significant but not huge changes in operating costs between the O-470s and the restarts, and definitely a big jump in fuel costs in the T182T, so one has to define which 182 one is talking about. And the R182 is a whole different animal, too.

And of course, acquisition costs are hugely different between all of the models, even inside of the carb’d O-470 years, if you go all the way back to the early straight tails and Johnson Bar flap models, or all the way up to the lawyers and liability cost laden R models through the T182T.

So, what kind of 182 is the OP looking for?

The brief research I have done make it seem like the P's and Q's are a sweet spot for value and capability. I flew one this past week with a friend that had a 260hp mod, boy was that a great performing airplane! But I don't think we need to be that fancy right out of the box.

 

[aggie06]

Hahaha. I honestly can say that, on a carbureted O-470 that spends the vast majority of its time above 6000’ MSL, because... home airport elevation potato... and cruises around 9000’ typically.

We have long term (almost ten years, wow! - a few of those before I joined the airplane co-ownership) numbers on it too, but we always burn more on trips to visit y’all lowlanders.

As far as the cost numbers on a 182 go, there’s significant but not huge changes in operating costs between the O-470s and the restarts, and definitely a big jump in fuel costs in the T182T, so one has to define which 182 one is talking about. And the R182 is a whole different animal, too.

And of course, acquisition costs are hugely different between all of the models, even inside of the carb’d O-470 years, if you go all the way back to the early straight tails and Johnson Bar flap models, or all the way up to the lawyers and liability cost laden R models through the T182T.

So, what kind of 182 is the OP looking for?

Agree the RG is a completely different animal. Lycoming engine instead of Continental, various other things. But I have been really happy with mine so far. Just finished the second annual yesterday. First was $1600. This one was $2400, but I had them Corrosion X and deal with a nose wheel shimmy. A fixed gear 182 is probably slightly less on the annual.

When I was looking for mine, I did look at a number of fixed gear 182s and got insurance quotes. At the time I was a 250 hour instrumented rated guy, but rates were usually in the $900-1500 range depending on hull value. It pays to shop around. My insurance for the RG was $600 less per year with the agent I used, and he even quoted some of the same companies as the other.

Edited to fix grammar.

 

[texasag93]

O-470 from Continental reman ran us 32k (6k for delivery and installation). Factory new would have been 36k (plus delivery and installation).

The case was cracked as it was a light case. Field rebuild plus a case would have run us 24k (plus 6k for delivery and installation).

We paid the premium as we wanted a reman and it was a club decision.

Club insurance runs us $4k. We charge $110 an hour (tach time) and $300 a month. We make money every year for upgrades to the panel and even repainted in 2 years ago. No assessments (yet, crossing fingers).

 

[jonnyjetprop]

For planes that you can find for rent, the quick and dirty way is to take the rental rate and go +/- 10%. The FBO or flying clubs aren’t making a huge profit margin.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

For planes that you can find for rent, the quick and dirty way is to take the rental rate and go +/- 10%. The FBO or flying clubs aren’t making a huge profit margin.

No they aren't, but they also pay exorbitant insurance premiums that you as a private owner won't have to pay - so that makes it a bit cheaper.

 

[James331]

Outside of starting a drop zone why get a 182?

Go 180 or maule or ...

 

[flyingcheesehead]

My club operated a fixed-gear 182 for about a decade.

Fixed costs - These should be easy to find out when you get serious, but here's what we paid:
Hangar: $190/mo
Insurance: Don't remember the exact number, but around $3000 a year for a 30-member, 3-airplane club. So, $250/mo. Insurance can be cheaper if you restrict your "club" to not grow past five named pilots, but that means potentially fewer people to split the fixed costs among.
Annual inspection: $1000-$1500 before squawks
GPS Database subscription: Dependent on equipment, but somewhere between $500-$1000 per year for a single unit

Variable costs:
Fuel @ 13gph tach (averaged out over a long period of time) and $4.50/gal: $58.50/gal
Maintenance (again, averaged over many years and hours): About $50/hr
Engine reserve: $26K o/h + $6K R&R / 1500 hr TBO: $21.33/hr

If you're starting a club, be sure to remember that you'll also have club overhead costs to think about. Maybe $1500/yr for an accountant to do your taxes and other such things, and a few hundred more for things like a PO box, bank fees, etc. So be sure to add that into your airplane's fixed costs.

So, figure that if you can get the numbers the same as I have them above, you'll need to bring in about $600 total per month for fixed costs and $130 per tach hour for variable costs.

Finally, you'll have some startup costs too, so don't forget those. Are you going to get people to fork over enough money to buy the airplane outright now, or try to get a loan? I'd recommend the latter. Say you're going to buy an airplane for $100K, it's probably easier to find five people to kick in $5K up front and pay $270/month than it will be to find five people to kick in $20K up front and pay $120/mo. (I'm basing these numbers on 25% down, 12 years, 6% which is similar to what we've gotten for airplane loans without a guarantor from our local bank.)

Hope this helps - Happy to add more if you need any clarification or have any questions.

 

[arnoha]

I think the bent firewall thing is overblown. I went into ownership paranoid about it, and I think the plane is easier to land than a 172. My rule, although never implemented fcross, is that if I bounce and am in the 65kt or below range I will go around. I have seen these videos/heard stories of guys porpoising and just letting it get progressively worse and not doing anything about it. I don't get it.....just go around. OR, just have your procedure be if you bounce go around.

I did too, until my club had four forks break from botched landings over the last year. I think all the firewalls were ultimately OK, but the cracked forks were a thing to see. (This is over the 8 Skylane on the line.)

EDIT: for reference, among the 21 Skyhawks, not a single firewall or fork issue.