172 --> Archer

asechrest

asechrest

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asechrest
I'm looking seriously at joining a club with an Archer. All but 1.4 of my 90 hours is in 172s. I flew this 172M 150HP for much of my training and after-PPL flying. This Archer II 180HP is the club plane.

Mission will involve myself, girlfriend, two kids ages 10 and 7. For the forseeable future we'll do day and weekend trips around central and southern Florida. I flew my FBO's Warrior 160HP with my instructor just to get the feel of a Piper. I really enjoyed it in the pattern and on approach and landing. I am concerned about egress from the single door in the event of ditching or emergency landing. Otherwise it seemed a fine airplane.

I'm mainly looking for some general comments on what to look out for and/or focus on as a mostly-Cessna pilot converting to an Archer. Provided the links to the actual planes if that helps. Thanks in advance.
 
After you've flown the Warrior, the Archer II should be a non-issue. Compared to the Warrior, the Archer II is a little noisier, better climb, slightly better cruise, and a little more fuel burn. You probably already know about the electric fuel pump and the need to switch tanks, which are the major operational differences from the C-172M. Standard rudder trim and manual flaps are nice Piper features.

It will probably take you longer to get familiar with the differences in the manual (Piper performance and W&B charts are formatted differently from Cessna's) than in the airplanes themselves.

Some people prefer Piper, some prefer Cessna; I like 'em both. Fly 'em both and make up your own mind.
 
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Pilawt said:
After you've flown the Warrior, the Archer II should be a non-issue. Compared to the Warrior, the Archer II is a little noisier, better climb, slightly better cruise, and a little more fuel burn. You probably already know about the electric fuel pump and the need to switch tanks, which are the major operational differences from the C-172M. Standard rudder trim and manual flaps are nice Piper features.

It will probably take you longer to get familiar with the differences in the manual (Piper performance and W&B charts are formatted differently from Cessna's) than in the airplanes themselves.

Some people prefer Piper, some prefer Cessna; I like 'em both. Fly 'em both and make up your own mind.
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Thank you. I did love the manual flaps. Simple, sturdy, quick, not dependent on electricity, easy to know flap position just by peripheral viewing of the bar. Much prefer it over electric flaps.

I was interested in the different ways folks handle the tank switching. My instructor just said every 30 minutes. Which is fine, but as a Cessna guy I'm not in the habit of remembering. Do most people set a timer, watch the clock, etc?
 
I do like the way a low wing flies, and I have about 1200 hours in Cessna products. I've flown an Arrow, Warrior, Cherokee 140, and a Skipper.

That said I sat in an Archer recently and even with a nice interior, it felt seriously claustrophobic with no door/window on the pilot's side. I don't know that the cockpit roominess is any different than a 172.

That and egress becomes a PITA as you get older. But sounds like that's not a concern for you at this point.
 
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Compared to the warrior expect the controls to be slightly heavier and a bit better performance. Compared to a 172 expect smother stalls (doesn't really drop a wing), lighter and more responsive controls (I think, it's been a very long time since I flew a 172), and improved visibility. You probably won't like the nose wheel steering very much (172's is better). Since door is a bit of an inconvenience but I don't really see it as an issue.

Regarding switching tanks you, if you go on a short local flight the 30 minute thing works fine. You can time it either with your watch or you may have a timer somewhere in the cockpit or specifically in the transponder. When you go on a long flight switching tanks every 30 minutes can bring you to a point where your approaching your airport and you have 15 minutes of fuel in each tank, and that's not the best idea. What you can do is take off on one tank and burn off 50% of that tank, then switch to the other and burn off the whole tank, and finally switch back to your original tank and finish the flight on that one. I believe the last method that I described you is the one that is actually recommended by piper.
 
asgcpa said:
Does it have a Garmin 430 or the like?
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Here's the panel details:

Equipment: Garmin GNS 430 IFR GPS; Garmin 396 (Panel Mounted) with XM-Weather; King Digital Nav/com; Glideslope & Marker Beacon; Auto-Pilot w/heading track, ILS, and NAV/GPS Coupling; 4-place intercom w/audio input.
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Quite an upgrade from the no-GPS, ancient avionics in the 172 I typically fly. I do fly with Garmin Pilot on a tablet, though.
 
iflyvfr said:
I do like the way a low wing flies, and I have about 1200 hours in Cessna products. I've flown an Arrow, Warrior, Cherokee 140, and a Skipper.

That said I sat in an Archer recently and even with a nice interior, it felt seriously claustrophobic with no door/window on the pilot's side. I don't know that the cockpit roominess is any different than a 172.

That and egress becomes a PITA as you get older. But sounds like that's not a concern for you at this point.
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I felt that claustrophobia feeling a bit too, though not the the point of it bothering me much. What I am concerned about is egress during an emergency situation. All four people, which would include a non-pilot girlfriend and two small kids, would have to file out the single door. This is not a friendly prospect especially in a ditching. Not that I plan on ditching, or that ditching in general is a friendly prospect, but it sure doesn't seem as favorable as the Cessna setup.

MachFly said:
Compared to the warrior expect the controls to be slightly heavier and a bit better performance. Compared to a 172 expect smother stalls (doesn't really drop a wing), lighter and more responsive controls (I think, it's been a very long time since I flew a 172), and improved visibility. You probably won't like the nose wheel steering very much (172's is better). Since door is a bit of an inconvenience but I don't really see it as an issue.

Regarding switching tanks you, if you go on a short local flight the 30 minute thing works fine. You can time it either with your watch or you may have a timer somewhere in the cockpit or specifically in the transponder. When you go on a long flight switching tanks every 30 minutes can bring you to a point where your approaching your airport and you have 15 minutes of fuel in each tank, and that's not the best idea. What you can do is take off on one tank and burn off 50% of that tank, then switch to the other and burn off the whole tank, and finally switch back to your original tank and finish the flight on that one. I believe the last method that I described you is the one that is actually recommended by piper.
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Thanks. Good info on the tank switching. Pardon the ignorance but I haven't looked at a POH yet. What's involved in burning off a whole tank? Run it until engine stumbles, then switch tank? Sounds scary. :D
 
asechrest said:
I was interested in the different ways folks handle the tank switching. My instructor just said every 30 minutes. Which is fine, but as a Cessna guy I'm not in the habit of remembering. Do most people set a timer, watch the clock, etc?
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When I owned low-wing airplanes that could only feed from one tank at a time, I velcroed a big ol' kitchen timer to the glareshield. I took off on the left tank and punched the 'start' button. I'd switch to the right after thirty minutes, back to the left an hour later, back to the right an hour later, and by that time I'd be thinking about a place to land.

view.jpg
 
asechrest said:
I was interested in the different ways folks handle the tank switching. My instructor just said every 30 minutes. Which is fine, but as a Cessna guy I'm not in the habit of remembering. Do most people set a timer, watch the clock, etc?
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After the first time you run a tank dry you will have no problem remembering to switch tanks.

I just use the minute hand on the clock. When it points to 3 I switch to the right tank. When it points to 9 I switch to the left tank. If I have a digital clock, I am lost.....:rolleyes2:
 
Your 430 can provide a switch tank reminder, and you'll notice a wing getting heavy.

I also find single door airplanes a bit scary also.
 
asechrest said:
Thanks. Good info on the tank switching. Pardon the ignorance but I haven't looked at a POH yet. What's involved in burning off a whole tank? Run it until engine stumbles, then switch tank? Sounds scary. :D
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You can certainly run it until the engine sputters. If your trying to maximize the range that would be the ideal procedure, was actually the SOP in WWII. Realistically though, you'd time it until you have 2-3 gallons left then switch the tanks.
 
The Archer I fly has a reminder that pops up in the GPS and flashes a warning light right in front of your face. It goes off at too short of intervals IMO, but it's definitely a nice reminder.
 
I love low wing planes, but my problem with piper is it really gets of having to climb in and over a seat, and then scoot over a seat and climbing out.
 
The 430 in the Archer that I fly in reminds you to change tanks every 30 minutes or so. I would see if that occurs in the one you fly.
 
asechrest said:
Thank you. I did love the manual flaps. Simple, sturdy, quick, not dependent on electricity, easy to know flap position just by peripheral viewing of the bar. Much prefer it over electric flaps.

I was interested in the different ways folks handle the tank switching. My instructor just said every 30 minutes. Which is fine, but as a Cessna guy I'm not in the habit of remembering. Do most people set a timer, watch the clock, etc?
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I like to use the clock's minute hand to point to which tank I should be on. That's a 30 minute switch, top and bottom of the hour. I also keep a 60 minute reserve.
 
I fly a Cherokee and the door never bothers me. I do tell every passenger that I will ask them to unlatch the door in case of an emergency landing.

But if it does bother some people, couldn't you just buy a glass breaking tool like many keep in their cars?
 
asechrest said:
Thank you. I did love the manual flaps. Simple, sturdy, quick, not dependent on electricity, easy to know flap position just by peripheral viewing of the bar. Much prefer it over electric flaps.

I was interested in the different ways folks handle the tank switching. My instructor just said every 30 minutes. Which is fine, but as a Cessna guy I'm not in the habit of remembering. Do most people set a timer, watch the clock, etc?
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Asechrest - the 430 in the Archer has an automatic message timer set up to remind you to switch fuel tanks.
 
Bonchie said:
I fly a Cherokee and the door never bothers me. I do tell every passenger that I will ask them to unlatch the door in case of an emergency landing.

But if it does bother some people, couldn't you just buy a glass breaking tool like many keep in their cars?
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You have glass windows in your airplane?
 
I've flown both regularly, until I came to the realization that Piper makes a better airplane. The Archer I fly gets a good 115kts in cruise at 2500rpm. I'll take the extra speed over the similarly-priced 172.

I prefer to switch fuel tanks over an airfield. If it's a short flight, I'll run one leg off of the left tank, and the return leg off of the right tank. The fuel imbalance felt in the controls is negligible.

If the single door turns you away from flying it, should you really be flying in general?
 
asechrest said:
I was interested in the different ways folks handle the tank switching. My instructor just said every 30 minutes. Which is fine, but as a Cessna guy I'm not in the habit of remembering. Do most people set a timer, watch the clock, etc?
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For short trips I found a pretty easy method with my watch. Right hand side of the dial I should be on right tank, left side I should be on the Left tank.

I note take off time and tank then even it out when needed.

On long trips I note take off time what tank and how much fuel then proceed to switch every 1/2 hour but still try to keep it Switching R tank RH side of watch. This way if I forget and it goes past my 1/2 hr switch I can look at my watch and know even though I may not be switching at 6 & 12.
 
You really don't have to time it to the very minute. If I go on a 45 minute or less one-way flight, I just switch tanks at my destination. Longer and I use the 30 minute rule.
 
The Cherokee has MUCH better manners when landing in a crosswind. Just sitting tied down in the 172 in a wind the airplane is rocking and rolling.

(was that a run on sentence?)
 
Bonchie said:
I fly a Cherokee and the door never bothers me. I do tell every passenger that I will ask them to unlatch the door in case of an emergency landing.

But if it does bother some people, couldn't you just buy a glass breaking tool like many keep in their cars?
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Glass breaking tool doesn't work that well for plastic windows. Too much "give" or flexibility with plastic.

I have a small box that fits perfectly under the front pax seat, doesn't interfere with anything. Holds the fire extinguisher, extra AA batteries and a 3 D-cell maglight. That's the "can opener" used to convert the side window on the pilot side into an extra exit, use either the maglight or the extinguisher. Guaranteed to open the window. Any window.

Understand how the windows are set into the fuselage in a cherokee - plastic is in a groove on the bottom and held on only with the metal rim covered by the plastic trim that's screwed into the fuselage. Take off the trim, easy to remove the window. Well, not always that easy with a 45 yr old airplane...(I speak from experience).
 
asechrest said:
I was interested in the different ways folks handle the tank switching. My instructor just said every 30 minutes. Which is fine, but as a Cessna guy I'm not in the habit of remembering. Do most people set a timer, watch the clock, etc?
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Before I got my fuel totalizer, assuming full tanks, I would switch whatever tank I started on after 1 hour according to my timer. Then I would switch from the other tank after 2 hours. This way you would have at least one hour of fuel left to use in the first tank. This would keep an acceptable side to side balance, minimize twists of the fuel selector ( I've had the selector shaft shear) and get you 3 hours of cross country with good reserves. If I was pushing for max range at my constant power setting and lean, I would run the tank dry on the 2 hour side. When doing the landing checklist, I would select the fullest tank.
 
asechrest said:
....I do fly with Garmin Pilot on a tablet, though.
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GP also has alerts you can set up under Tools...Alerts. So now you have the 430 as well as GP that can be set up to alert you.

Maybe I missed it, but is that a wet rate? It seems to be a decent price if it is.
 
Not that I would recommend it, but it is an eye-opening experience to kick a window out from a Piper. Carrying window breakers etc is just silly, they do absolutely nothing to the plastic/plexiglass/whatever windows. The windows can be pushed out easier than opening a door handle on a Cessna.
Nothing to worry about, really.
 
I'm not a fan of single doors either, which is one of the reasons I fly a Sierra; three doors for loading and unloading definitely makes things easier. Unfortunately I also prefer low wings planes and the list of low-wing, two door planes is pretty short. Sierra, Commander, Socata come to mind, but there certainly aren't a huge number of them.
 
Challenged said:
I'm not a fan of single doors either, which is one of the reasons I fly a Sierra; three doors for loading and unloading definitely makes things easier. Unfortunately I also prefer low wings planes and the list of low-wing, two door planes is pretty short. Sierra, Commander, Socata come to mind, but there certainly aren't a huge number of them.
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I like having 2 doors and both back windows in the Socata are plackered "In emergency, kick out here" so 4 potential exits.
 
Switching tanks isn't hard. I takeoff on the fullest one; on long trips, I take off on the Left tank. Switch every hour. But then, I have a clock in the center of my yoke with settable, non-moving red hands that I set at engine start, makes it easy to remember.

You do need to verify your fuel burn with your watch. Know how much fuel you have during preflight [stick the tanks every time], know how long a tank will last. Switch as needed.

My Owners Manual actually recommends taking off on one tank, fly for an hour, switch tanks and fly to empty. Then you will have duration on second tank minus an hour remaining in your one tank. I've never tried that method . . .

I think you will enjoy the low wing traveling experience!
 
JimNtexas said:
Your 430 can provide a switch tank reminder, and you'll notice a wing getting heavy.

I also find single door airplanes a bit scary also.
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Which is why if I got to choose between owning a Bo and a Commander, I'd be inclined to go Commander.
 
Hank S said:
Switching tanks isn't hard. I takeoff on the fullest one; on long trips, I take off on the Left tank. Switch every hour. But then, I have a clock in the center of my yoke with settable, non-moving red hands that I set at engine start, makes it easy to remember.
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One thing to watch is, the checklist seems to suggest switching tanks right before takeoff. It actually doesn't say that if you read it very carefully, but it is often misread.

Always take off on the same tank you tested in run-up. If you switch to a fouled/empty/buggered tank or miss the detent as you take the runway, you'll discover it just in time to not try the impossible turn.
 
MAKG1 said:
One thing to watch is, the checklist seems to suggest switching tanks right before takeoff. It actually doesn't say that if you read it very carefully, but it is often misread.

Always take off on the same tank you tested in run-up. If you switch to a fouled/empty/buggered tank or miss the detent as you take the runway, you'll discover it just in time to not try the impossible turn.
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not to hijack the thread, but I just had this discussion the other day. in the cherokees/archers I rent, I will start the plane on one tank, taxi to fuel, fill up, then switch tanks, taxi and do runup. that gives me a good idea that both are functioning and like you said, take off on the tank u did ur runup with.
 
eman1200 said:
GP also has alerts you can set up under Tools...Alerts. So now you have the 430 as well as GP that can be set up to alert you.

Maybe I missed it, but is that a wet rate? It seems to be a decent price if it is.
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It's a wet rate. I also believe it to be a good rate.

As an update, I joined the club this weekend. I have a set of shiny keys on my keychain. :D Pretty neat feeling.

Club requires a checkout, so I'm looking to do that next weekend.
 
MAKG1 said:
One thing to watch is, the checklist seems to suggest switching tanks right before takeoff. It actually doesn't say that if you read it very carefully, but it is often misread.

Always take off on the same tank you tested in run-up. If you switch to a fouled/empty/buggered tank or miss the detent as you take the runway, you'll discover it just in time to not try the impossible turn.
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Great tip. Thanks.
 
C172/152/150 PA28-whatever

All the same chit, I'd wager it's a one flight checkout.


I would have been renting that nice C140A if I were there, glide slope and all, not shabby :yesnod:
 
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