140 NM trip - none of it Cross Country...

labbadabba said:
I don't see how it would. They'll give me some gas money for the KTOP -> KMKC leg which is legit but I'm not receiving any compensation. I posted my X/C on our flying club calendar and they asked to tag along so it was originally intended just to be a personal trip.
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Without a commercial, you cannot have property or passengers on a flight for which you receive expense reimbursement from your company.
 
JeffDG said:
Without a commercial, you cannot have property or passengers on a flight for which you receive expense reimbursement from your company.
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Correct, but that's not the case here. It's a private flight and it just so happens that two friends need a lift from KTOP. I'll not be receiving any reimbursement from my company (tho, that would be cool). I suspect we'll stop at the self-serve municipal tanks at KMKC for some 100LL and I'll be on my way back to KIXD.
 
labbadabba said:
Correct, but that's not the case here. It's a private flight and it just so happens that two friends need a lift from KTOP. I'll not be receiving any reimbursement from my company (tho, that would be cool). I suspect we'll stop at the self-serve municipal tanks at KMKC for some 100LL and I'll be on my way back to KIXD.
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It's OK not to respond to everyone on the thread. Your question was not about reimbursement or cost sharing. Sigh.
 
labbadabba said:
I don't see how it would. They'll give me some gas money for the KTOP -> KMKC leg which is legit but I'm not receiving any compensation. I posted my X/C on our flying club calendar and they asked to tag along so it was originally intended just to be a personal trip.
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I dunno, maybe I shouldn't have asked. I just remember my CFI pounding into my head so much of what I can't do that I get a little jumpy. All those rules about common purpose and those sort of things.

edit:

Sorry for even bringing it up. It sucks that there can be so many headaches when you just want to take a buddy along on a flight.
 
Matthew said:
I dunno, maybe I shouldn't have asked. I just remember my CFI pounding into my head so much of what I can't do that I get a little jumpy. All those rules about common purpose and those sort of things.
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For what it's worth, on of the PAX is my old CFI so I could put him in the right seat and call it a lesson...
 
Brad Z said:
It's OK not to respond to everyone on the thread. Your question was not about reimbursement or cost sharing. Sigh.
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I can't have the good men and ladies of PoA thinking that I'm trying break the rules... :dunno:
 
labbadabba said:
Correct, but that's not the case here. It's a private flight and it just so happens that two friends need a lift from KTOP. I'll not be receiving any reimbursement from my company (tho, that would be cool). I suspect we'll stop at the self-serve municipal tanks at KMKC for some 100LL and I'll be on my way back to KIXD.
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Fair 'nuff...I misread. My apologies.
 
You can however count it as x-country to satisfy part 135 cross country requirements.
 
Are you changing planes or is it all in one plane?

If you're changing planes, its a tough sell because you cant log 2 planes on 1 line... Im in a similar boat for a trip Im planning Im flying KCRQ -> KSDM changing planes then flying KSDM -> MMTJ -> MMES.

The trip down to Ensenda; XC there and back. The trip from KCRQ to KSDM because of the plane change is not. If I were remaining in the same plane, I could log the outbound leg KCRQ->KSDM->MMTJ->MMES and the reverse on the inbound leg.

Plane change aside (the planes Im not authorized to fly the planes I rent from KCRQ to Mexico but the planes I rent from KSDM I can), I would be able to log it because I have legitimate reason for the stop/re positioning as the KSDM->MMTJ stops are customs stops on either side of the border.

All that being said, I'll point you to this:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...9/van zanen - (2009) legal interpretation.pdf

I also recommend you keep the letter on you; not every instructor I've dealt with is aware of this interpretation issued by the FAA and I assume some DPE's may not either though unless they're going over your log book with a fine tooth comb, I doubt most would question your logged time... It really becomes an issue if someone does go over your log book and finds out you logged 49.5NM as XC (KCRQ to L08 is 48.9NM one of the worse teases there is)

Personally, I dont like logging anything less than 52.5NM as XC time... On a sectional its too easy to make an error in your measurement or fudge it slightly and why risk it? By that logic, I'd argue Roosterville is too close at only 50.2; you only need 1 FAA Administrator looking at it and deciding it doesnt meet Regs for it to become an issue... give yourself 5-10% padding even in a C152 trucking along at 80mph it'll only add an extra 10 minutes round trip. 10 Minutes of prevention is worth it vs potentially having my certificate violated because of a lousy half mile...

Based on the airports, I dont think there is an easy way to get XC for the entire trip (I try to avoid chaining more than 3 or 4 airports in a single flight line; you can if you want but personally, I think it looks more questionable if you have more than 2 intermediates) but there are certainly a few airports you could put a stop into to get a decent amount of it credited.

Of course you can probably get more credited too if you have some flexibility in how you fly it (direction, order, etc).
 
Brad Z said:
No it does not, or at last does not anymore since the 1997 part 61 rewrite (see 14 CFR 61.1).
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I did.

Cross-country time means—
(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (ii) through (vi) of this definition, time acquired during flight—
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under §61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
...
(vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.


I don't see the word "Landing" in paragraph vi B
 
Matthew said:
I remember when this came out. It allows you to fly 25 NM east, then consider that airport your "original point of departure", fly 51 NM west, then 26 NM east back to your home airport. You never get more than 26 NM from home. It can count as a >50nm trip, but really defeats the purpose of an XC which is to get you out of your comfort zone.
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Seems someone beat me to the Van Zanen interpretation... and there is certainly something to be said for the "re-positioning" flight that takes never takes you more than 25 NM from home...

I dont like it but this is one of those situations where its impossible to put the intent of the regulation into words really. Its intended to get you outside your comfort zone but who's to say what's outside of your comfort zone?

The regs specifically state 50 NM so 49NM is out yet most of the time, the flight is not direct which easily adds 1 NM plus unless your takeoff and landing runway happen to be in alignment and you are able to take off and land in the same direction, there's always some "upwind" travel before you turn on course.

So why is 50NM the magic number?

Arguably, you could hop from airport to airport to airport with no more than 15-20NM between each and get your cross country time because the last airport is >50NM. Is that really taking you outside of your comfort zone? I wouldnt personally think so but according to the FAA its a valid cross country.

Or fly the same 52 NM cross country 30 times for a total of 45 hours but are you really outside of your comfort zone? I've only done 2 XC more than twice; one continues to be challenging because of the airport, its busy and its an offshore island which on clear vis of 40+NM days is not hard to point the nose at and go but if vis drops down in the 10-15 or lower range, you're flying over open water with no reference/next fix point except what deadreckoning and instruments tell you.

The ground based one though I found to be easy after the 2nd or 3rd flight... The first time I flew it, it was my student solo XC and I added 2 stops at airports with a tower. The second time I flew it, it was interesting to see how far I'd come from being a student (even though I was still very low hours) but found it fairly easy to do. The third time I flew it was interesting because I flew it at dusk which made the return leg at night
The final time I flew it, I spent more time "screwing around" for lack of a better term while flying almost completely off plan because I knew the references well enough to get there without issue.

For that matter, as others pointed out the regulation requires a landing at that airport so the non-stop flight around the world which most definitely took the pilot out of their "backyard" comfort zone yet only military pilots are credited with XC flying to a station and back without landing.

I was looking at doing a grand canyon tour and found it'd be an interesting flight but it doesnt matter that its almost 300 NM zig-zagging up the canyon because the canyon is curved making the airports at either end less than 50 NM apart meaning its not XC (rough estimate used for airport distances and Grand Canyon distance.).

So yeah, the reg doesn match the intent but its what we've got to work within.
 
I will grant that the "comfort zone" is my interpretation. But I do think the intent is to get you away from home, farther than you can normally see, so that you learn how to navigate and fly into and out of unfamiliar airports. There will always be cases like your GC flight, or an around the world flight, or my around the countryside trip that took most of an afternoon, that start and end at nearly the same point. (and I'm trying to limit this to a student or PP, most others have already moved beyond a 25 nm radius from home). You can do it, it's allowed, and you can log it. But if you are using it to learn something, are you getting anything out of it?
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I did.

Cross-country time means—
(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (ii) through (vi) of this definition, time acquired during flight—
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under §61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
...
(vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.


I don't see the word "Landing" in paragraph vi B
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The OP never mentioned venturing 50nm from original point of departure.
 
As an aside, other than for ratings, why does XC time matter?

Also, if it does matter for some other reason, why would a non-rating definition be acceptable?
 
rolivi said:
As an aside, other than for ratings, why does XC time matter?

Also, if it does matter for some other reason, why would a non-rating definition be acceptable?
Click to expand...

Job requirements. I haven't seen XC for insurance requirements, though.
 
Brad Z said:
Job requirements. I haven't seen XC for insurance requirements, though.
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I don't know (obviously) but wouldn't the employer and/or insurance company assume the same definition as used for rating?

If not, if using multiple definitions, how do you denote it your log to know which is which? Do you put it as XC with an "R" next to it so you can add up the rating qualified separate from the other?
 
rolivi said:
I don't know (obviously) but wouldn't the employer and/or insurance company assume the same definition as used for rating?

If not, if using multiple definitions, how do you denote it your log to know which is which? Do you put it as XC with an "R" next to it so you can add up the rating qualified separate from the other?
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Some people make a column for x countries >50 miles and <50 miles in their logbooks
 
Matthew said:
I will grant that the "comfort zone" is my interpretation. But I do think the intent is to get you away from home, farther than you can normally see, so that you learn how to navigate and fly into and out of unfamiliar airports. There will always be cases like your GC flight, or an around the world flight, or my around the countryside trip that took most of an afternoon, that start and end at nearly the same point. (and I'm trying to limit this to a student or PP, most others have already moved beyond a 25 nm radius from home). You can do it, it's allowed, and you can log it. But if you are using it to learn something, are you getting anything out of it?
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Comfort zone is my interpretation of the intent as well; thats like I said, the intent of the Reg and the wording of the Reg is different.

Unfortunately, we're bound by the way the Reg is written not by the way it was intended which leaves loopholes like using Van Zanen to conduct a flight like the one you described (25NM East, turn around go 50 NM West, turn around go 25NM East back home and never leave a 25 NM area and still log 3/4 of it as XC) while not being able to use the Reg or Van Zanen to support a round-the-world non-stop 15,000+NM trip and log it as XC.

Its a Reg that personally I think really needs rewording but its unlikely to be updated because 50NM XC time is really only an issue until you hit 50 hours after which you can get your instrument, commercial, CFI, CFII, etc and even then its only part 61 as part 141 has no XC time based requirements.

If you're still only flying for yourself and only doing 50NM XC's by the time you reach the hours needed for an ATP (not to mention ATP's can log non-landing flights to a station) then I dont know what to tell you (of course as a CFI/CFII, logging your student's 50 NM XC's as your time is valid too so Im not saying you wont still have 50NM XC's either).
 
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Brad Z said:
The OP never mentioned venturing 50nm from original point of departure.
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Correct.

And, others claimed that a 'round the world flight didn't count for any ratings.
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The OP never mentioned venturing 50NM from original point of departure which again is where the intent vs the clear language of the Reg comes into play.

The OPs proposed flight is arguably one of those "questionable" ones as far as repositioning goes. Although his total distance traveled covers 140 NM, he never goes only his first stop takes him further from home than 25NM and that still is only 37NM. He does have one leg (KTOP->KMKC) that is near to a XC in its own right at 48NM but its only 22NM from his point of departure.

The question though of intent vs regs is more subtle... Here's a fictional example:

Pretend there is an airport Airport 15 NM Northeast of Homeland (HDF) VOR (4NM Southwest of KBNG) that we'll call KFIC

KCRQ to KFIC - Leg 49 NM
KFIC to KSNA - Leg 49 NM
KSNA to L08 - Leg 82 NM
L08 to KCRQ - Leg 49 NM

Only one leg is more than 50NM yet the entire flight totals 236NM and is right on the edge of XC time but unless you reposition at least once, you would be unable to log the flight as XC for rating purposes. In fact, the KSNA-L08 leg is the only section that qualifies.

KCRQ to Fictional (KFIC): 49NM
KCRQ to KSNA: 44NM
KCRQ to L08: 49NM
No Departure from KCRQ qualifies.

Fictional (KFIC) to KCRQ: 49NM
Fictional (KFIC) to KSNA: 49NM
Fictional (KFIC) to L08: 48 NM
No Departure from KFIC qualifies.

KSNA to KCRQ: 44NM
KSNA to KFIC: 49NM
KSNA to L08: 82NM
Only Departure from KSNA to L08 qualifies.

L08 to KCRQ: 49NM
L08 to KFIC: 48NM
L08 to KSNA: 82NM
Only Departure from L08 to KSNA qualifies.

It's entirely possible to fly a 49NM DME ARC with 6 stops no further than 49NM from each other and the origin airport not have it qualify as XC time because you never "repositioned" or you repositioned at each stop so no airport was more than 49NM from the last. Your total distance flown would be 392NM. I'll grant you that the case is probably completely fictional as you're unlikely to find an airport with 6 airports spaced so perfectly as to be so tantalizingly far yet still too close.

I have a hard time believing that despite the lack of an airport being 50NM from the point of origin, that the person making this flight did not acquire the aeronautical cross country experience required for a rating but the plain language regulation specifically says the entire flight would not count as XC unless the pilot repositioned once and separately logged an outbound and inbound leg of travel (in essence repositioning a 2nd time).

Which goes back to the non-stop round-the-world trip... First of all, Im not familiar with the group that did it or what their ratings were but I assume they probably have enough time logged that they do not need the time to be specifically logged as XC for ratings... Even if they did not, I imagine the FAA would make some form of special review/dispensation; after all 61.1(b)(3)(vii) allows military pilots credit for essentially doing the same thing (though they dont often circumnavigate).



For the OP: I forgot to mention a small point of order... Technically, KK81 does not exist as IATA and ICAO airport codes (airport codes starting with K in the continental US) are letter based only and neither IATA or ICAO permit numeric codes. The airport should be referenced as K81.

K81 is an FAA identifier and not having an IATA or ICAO code would be filed on your flight plan as ZZZZ for ICAO or K81 for FAA. IATA codes are used for airline ticketing and baggage routing and there are a few instances in which the IATA code can be something we as pilots would not expect.

The Continental US is the only region where FAA codes often match IATA codes which can often be prefixed with a K to get the ICAO code. In most other regions of the world, they are not issued an FAA Code and the IATA code and the ICAO code can be and often are different.

For example:
Charles de Gaulle in France
FAA: No Code, IATA:CDG and ICAO:LFPG
(L = Southern Europe, F = France, PG = Paris de Gaulle)

or
Saipen International, which is administered by the US and thus has a FAA Code, the FAA Code and ICAO code match but it has its own IATA code.
FAA: GSN, IATA: SPN, ICAO: PGSN

or a prominent continental US airport where the codes FAA/ICAO codes are the same (with a prepended K) but the IATA code doesnt match
Sawyer International in Michigan
FAA:SAW, IATA:MQT, ICAO:KSAW.

If you're going to Sawyer on a commercial flight and you see your bags tagged with SAW look out because they'll be headed to Sabiha Gockcen International in Istanbul, Turkey while you'll be in Michigan...
 
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rolivi said:
I don't know (obviously) but wouldn't the employer and/or insurance company assume the same definition as used for rating?

If not, if using multiple definitions, how do you denote it your log to know which is which? Do you put it as XC with an "R" next to it so you can add up the rating qualified separate from the other?
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There's really only three definitions relevant to most of us.
  1. Generic cross country - KDEP to KARR with landing at KARR regardless of distance.
  2. For all certificates and ratings - KDEP to KMID (or others) to KARR, so long as either KMID or KARR (or another) is more than 50 NM from KDEP and you land there.
  3. For the ATP - KDEP to KDEP so long as you travel >50 NM form KDEP.

For those who want to log #1 - usually because of career aspirations since they count toward Part 135 cross country requirements, folks will put a separate column in their paper logs or use some way to identify them in their eLogs. My first CFI logged flights without a landing at another airport that didn't meet #2 requirements as LOCAL, a habit I continue to this day. So, if I do an IFR currency flight with missed approaches at 3 remote airports, my logbook shows KDEP LOCAL. If I want to know my total of that time, I just run a query for all flights that contain the word LOCAL in the route area.

While I have definitely flown cross countries that meet the #3 definition, they tended to be few and far between and I never bothered to log them. I guess if you are heading for an ATP and don;t think you will get enough #2 cross countries, you'd set up some way of accounting for them.
 
Is it really a comfort zone thing though? I have one airport that I always fly to; its cross country, but I would feel more comfortable landing there than some of the fields only 20 miles away. I am sure a lot of pilots only cross country to the same airports over and over, because they travel there for something other than flying.
 
jaymark6655 said:
Is it really a comfort zone thing though? I have one airport that I always fly to; its cross country, but I would feel more comfortable landing there than some of the fields only 20 miles away. I am sure a lot of pilots only cross country to the same airports over and over, because they travel there for something other than flying.
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Of course the more familiar one is with an area, the more comfortable one is. There's a 245 NM one way straight-line flight I think of as "local" and (eventually) did about the same amount of flight planning as I would do for one 20 NM away.

The goal is for you to move out of your comfort zone, experiencing new airports, new terrain, new obstacles. But fulfilling that goal is left mostly up to us. Just just like the currency rules. Their goal is proficiency but they don't force us to be proficient. Nor would we want them to (although I guess there are folks around who like more regulations).
 
jaymark6655 said:
Is it really a comfort zone thing though? I have one airport that I always fly to; its cross country, but I would feel more comfortable landing there than some of the fields only 20 miles away. I am sure a lot of pilots only cross country to the same airports over and over, because they travel there for something other than flying.
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Again, comfort zone is how most of us interpret the Regulation but the regulation is imperfect for exactly this reason... The question really comes down to how do you codify something so nebulous.

I have a BRAVO airport that is 25NM away from my home airport. I would certainly consider landing there outside of my comfort zone but its not valid for XC time. Most of the STARS you would intercept are within 50NM unless you deliberately flew further to intercept an intersection or station further away for the purpose of logging it as XC for ATP time though since you didnt land 50NM away, it'd only apply to ATP.

Like you, I also have a XC that is 60NM away but Im completely comfortable with. If visibility is anything more than 15NM I can usually make out the destination well enough to know where Im going by visual reference before I lose sight of my home airport and even when visibility starts to creep down towards 15NM or less, the destination sits right on a victor airway so I can just fly the airway. I do a cursory glance at the weather to confirm nothing is going to box me in out there, take a quick look at the winds to get an idea of whether I want to be higher/lower and what direction I might need to correct and how much and go. I haven't updated my flight plan with proper wind corrections or routing pretty much since my first flight there.

Its my opinion, and it seems to be the opinion of most people who read the regulation, that the first flight complies with the spirit but not the letter of the regulation while the second meets the letter but not the spirit of the regulation. Which is what makes the Van Zanen interpretation offered by the FAA regarding repositioning so interesting because you can do weird things to make it work out to log XC time that otherwise wouldn't have been valid.
 
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