<100hr Pilot- A rant

[Henning]

But that's the difference between "can" and "should". Mike said "should", which I disagree with.

I don't disagree. I think you should put forward the effort to make it in 40 whether you're occupational or not, but that's just my opinion. If you put forth a full effort as I described, fly 4 times a week and study 30 hrs and don't make it in 50hrs, something needs to be addressed.

 

[sba55]

Safety is 99% about knowing your experience level and adjusting your mission accordingly.

It's possible to be just as safe at 100 hours as someone who has 5000 hours. If both understand their limitations, they will both be safe. I had similar frustrations when I started out because people would always talk about their hours.

Hours don't matter. You'll find that many pilots think they're good because they have lots of hours or because they can fly an airplane better than you can. Those things don't matter that much.

For example, I'm really not very good at the flying the airplane part of flying. I'm good enough to be safe, but I wouldn't be good at precision aerobatics. But that doesn't matter much. I'm still a lot safer than lots of pilots who have much better rudder and stick skills or who have more hours.

Adjusting your missions according to your experience level makes all the difference.

 

[timwinters]

I don't disagree. I think you should put forward the effort to make it in 40 whether you're occupational or not, but that's just my opinion. If you put forth a full effort as I described, fly 4 times a week and study 30 hrs and don't make it in 50hrs, something needs to be addressed.

Lots of broad brush painting going on here. Everyone is unique. Every situation is also.

Me...

I bought a plane...scratched my head...and said, "hmm, guess I should learn to fly". I got my PP at about 70 hours.

Some reasons it took well over 40:

* I flew a lot of "non-training" hours once I soloed because I owned the plane and there were 3 airports within 25 miles that I was signed off to fly repeat x/c's to. I played a lot.

* My instructor was a retired full bird colonel with a very conservative training style. For example, I had just under 8 hour of hood time when I took my check ride instead of just 3 (from memory the required number).

* I wasn't quite ready for my check ride (in my instructor's mind at least) when winter set in...and it was a long, cold one...so some "refresher time" was spent in the spring.

Not everyone learns to fly on an assembly line with a snot nosed kid as a CFI. (thank god)

 

[Jaybird180]

Thank everyone for your constructive remarks regarding my post, and I also thank those that were a bit off the mark, both were valuable.

My rant was not directed at anyone here in the virtual, but a pent-up response of the culture of the real world. I had hoped vocalizing would help me gather my thoughts by borrowing the wisdom of the collective.

Here are my reflections and what I've learned: I am a Private Pilot. There is a standard that I am expected to be able to consistently meet. It it my belief that I am proficient to THAT standard.

I cannot concern myself with the prejudices of others, for it is their right. However I likewise cannot stand idle while the actions of those holding preconceived notions hinder my right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

In salutation, I believe it hypocritical and insulting to the certifying process for a person who is entrusted with training and/or certifying individuals to their next phase to simultaneously disbelieve in the integrity of the process. I am neither liar nor cheat. I worked hard, earned my certificate and every drop of ink in my logbook and trust the integrity of those that have vetted me.

Thank you. I go study now to prepare for my next flight.

 

[Ted]

Regardless of hours, I've found two constants in safe pilots:

1. They know their limitations.
2. They demand and accept perfection -- or as close as they can come to perfection -- in their aircraft.

Beyond that is luck.

Agreed. However, the most dangerous pilots I know are either the ones who don't care about #2, or actually think that they've achieved perfection. Reality is, you don't. If you think you do, you aren't looking hard enough.

 

[ronnieh]

The problem, Jaybird, is that all training is not to the same standard. It is open to the interpertation of the particular instructor and the DPE. It is for this reason that many more experience pilots recognize that all ratings are a liscense to learn. First being a CFI does not make you a particularly good pilot. I had my CFI at about 400 hours (many years ago) and I now know I did not know squat about flying. Later when I got MEI I did not know squat about flying a twin. When a pilot is a fresh IR pilot he is not ready to tackle the world of IFR. As a fresh IR pilot would you go into ATL on a Thursday afternoon with 300/1. I hope not. This happens all the way up the ladder. I faced this same thing when moving to a turbine. I was a multi thousand hour pilot with over 4000 hours in twins. I had over 2500 hours in cabin class twins but almost no turbine time. I recognized this and sought out a couple pilot friends with many thousands of hours of turbine time. One of these friends was not an instructor (gasp). He did have a lot of hours as a freight dog. I could have jumped into the turbine right away and flew the owner. Instead I took the admonishments of the friends and chose to recognize my limitations. Their help and experience was invlauable. Now, if you know and recognize these limitations, and stay with in them while you gently stretch the envelope then I would consider you a good pilot with the correct attitude with a good chance to stay alive until you become a WISE pilot. Jaybird, your attitude is not leading you in that direction. You may be a "good" pilot and meet the standards of the particular DPE but with less than 100 hours you do not know squat about flying. I do sincerely hope you do get the opportunity to learn.

 

[dmccormack]

In salutation, I believe it hypocritical and insulting to the certifying process for a person who is entrusted with training and/or certifying individuals to their next phase to simultaneously disbelieve in the integrity of the process.

Sorry, but gotta nitpick here...

As mentioned earlier, the certificate is merely a license to learn. Invincibility is not attached to that plastic. No pilot/ CFI/ Examiner (that I know) thinks that passing some test = safe in all conditions.

Hours logged means you've been forced or looked for circumstances/ conditions/ situations that are beyond your current capacity and survived. Most of us learn something. Some do not.

The key is to be less concerned about logbook numbers and more open to learning from those that have been there and come back again so that you go in better prepared.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

I was reading a bit of Jennifer Grant's reminiscence of her father, Cary Grant, in the book "Good Stuff". In it, she said he always gave her two pieces of somewhat conflicting advice, which as I read it reminded me of this thread.

First, he said that you should never pay attention to what other people think of you, because they're actually too busy thinking about themselves to think about you.

Second, he said that all you have is your reputation.

I loved that advice. Don't worry about what people think, or what you THINK people think. And try to live right, and do whatever you do well. The rest will take care of itself.

Amen.

 

[EdFred]

Thank everyone for your constructive remarks regarding my post, and I also thank those that were a bit off the mark, both were valuable.

My rant was not directed at anyone here in the virtual, but a pent-up response of the culture of the real world. I had hoped vocalizing would help me gather my thoughts by borrowing the wisdom of the collective.

Here are my reflections and what I've learned: I am a Private Pilot. There is a standard that I am expected to be able to consistently exceed. It it my belief that I am proficient to THAT standard.

I cannot concern myself with the prejudices of others, for it is their right. However I likewise cannot stand idle while the actions of those holding preconceived notions hinder my right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

In salutation, I believe it hypocritical and insulting to the certifying process for a person who is entrusted with training and/or certifying individuals to their next phase to simultaneously disbelieve in the integrity of the process. I am neither liar nor cheat. I worked hard, earned my certificate and every drop of ink in my logbook and trust the integrity of those that have vetted me.

Thank you. I go study now to prepare for my next flight.

Fixed that for you.

 

[silver-eagle]

Jaybird;
Be the best informed you can be. Practice with your instructor periodically (it IS NOT any kind of admission, just help to avoid the mistakes we all have). Start the WINGS program. Get 10-20 hours then start IFR. As you progress through IFR, you'll see your skills improve.
Strive for perfection. Analyze your flights, what you did right, what you did wrong, what you learned. Discard the blowhards. Listen to the veterans. Listen to your mentors. Choose carefully who else you fly with.
You'll do fine.

 

[Tom-D]

Many of us older pilots have developed habits over the years that keep us out of trouble, we know what we can get away with, and what we can't. we seldom go any place we haven't been many times before in aircraft that we don't have a lot of time in.

I fly several aircraft during the year, and in most cases they are like putting on old friends. I fly for fun, if it ain't fun I don't do it. Yes,,, I can still do all the items in the PTS. and do them to Com standards, but that doesn't mean I degrade those who have less time than I do. all time in a log book means is you have a record of currency.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I think the only thing experience does for you is that it allows you to correlate something that is happening now to something that has happened to you before. Whether you learned something helpful or not from your previous experience is another question.

Very true - And the main reason why people say things like "Do you have 1,000 hours, or one hour 1,000 times?" You don't learn much on your 894th trip around the same pattern at the same airport in the same airplane. Getting out in the world is important. I've found that the long cross country flights are the best learning experiences available without a CFI aboard.

The way you get better at anything is to push the envelope a little but you need to know when to stop.

Yes!!! One of my favorite sayings is "To become a better pilot, you must push the envelope - But only push one corner at a time."

For example, a few years ago I told some friends of mine to PLEASE not take a trip they had planned to the west coast... Shortly after I had made my own trip to the west coast. Sounds mighty hypocritical, doesn't it? But part of the decisionmaking process for me went like this: Yes, I'm going into some very unforgiving terrain for the first time... BUT, I'm doing it in an airplane that I have many hours in, and I'll stop and take a mountain flying course on my way. I'll also be alone and nowhere near max gross weight, so I should have plenty of performance from the airplane even at higher altitudes. Because there aren't as many airports around, I'll up my personal reserve fuel minimum from one hour to two.

In my friends' case, they were going to get checked out in a new type of airplane unlike anything either one of them had flown, be so heavy that they were only going to be able to take off with two hours of fuel and would have VERY little performance even at only 10,000 feet in the underpowered airplane. That's at least three strikes there. (They didn't make the flight.)

Now that I've done the mountain course, flown through the rocks, and learned a lot along the way... Well, next time I'd be OK taking an airplane I have less time in, and I'll be pushing a different corner of the envelope.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I've read all the statistics about the 100 hour kill zone and I know what the insurance companies say, but I'm getting a bit ticked off by the arrogance of higher time pilots who've forgotten that they were once new(and who've NEVER flown with me) judging me by my logbook.

What are they doing/saying? Or are you simply being overly sensitive?

I am resolved to not be the statistic.

That is, for the most part, meaningless.

I used to teach people how to drive trucks. Semis with sleeper cabs and 53-foot trailers. 3/4 of truck drivers get in an accident in their first 90 days. Wanting to be the best trainer around, I was hoping to reduce that statistic among my trainees.

So, I told them some stories about times I'd been overly fatigued, times I'd gotten into minor accidents myself, what factors tend to contribute toward accidents, what kinds of accidents newbie drivers usually have, what sorts of things they could do to avoid accidents, and as a member of the company's accident review board, I'd even drag them into the accident review meetings so they could see all of the accidents that were happening in the company. And since I had them for four weeks, generally, I had the time to spread all of these things out so they could absorb them.

Without fail, every time I'd tell them the things they needed to do to be safe, they'd say basically what you said above: That they were resolved to be safe and not have any accidents. Later on, I would tell my trainees that exact same thing, how every trainee before them had said the same thing...

... And it didn't do a damn bit of good. For all my efforts, 3/4 of my trainees got into accidents in their first 90 days, just like every other trainer's trainees, every other company's new drivers, all across the industry.

What that tells me is that not wanting to have an accident, and doing the right things to not have an accident are two VERY different things. Everyone talks the talk, but you've gotta walk the walk, EVERY SINGLE TIME... But really, nobody does.

I think of myself as a good pilot, as I'm sure everyone here does. But I've done some really stupid, boneheaded things in airplanes, I have some bad habits, and I know that my bag of luck is not as full as it was when I started. I was very gung-ho as a new pilot too, and really hated things like the 150-hour total time required to rent the high-performance and complex planes solo. Hell, I started my instrument training in the Arrow with the idea that once I had 25+ hours in type that they'd maybe waive the 150-TT requirement. (To their credit, they did come up with a deal for me well prior to 150TT, but I ended up joining the club before I completed my part of the bargain. Let me know if you're interested in the details.)

So... I guess another thing I'm trying to say is that you simply don't know what you don't know yet. Experience will show you what you don't know. I have over 900 hours and I know MUCH better now than I did when I had <100 hours that I'm still just a pup and have lots to learn. I must say, though, that that is one of the things that has made flying even more appealing to me than when I started - I love to learn, and the learning in this business never stops.

To put it yet one more way: I thought I knew what V1 was... But I didn't really, truly know what it was until I experienced my first takeoff from the cockpit of a jet and saw the approach lights at the opposite end of the runway getting very close, VERY fast! I thought I knew the source of the saying "You can never have too much fuel unless you're on fire". But I didn't really, truly know what it meant until I was shooting an IFR approach into my alternate airport after already having missed the approach at my destination, with the weather having been worse than forecast and the weather at the alternate dropping so fast that it was quite doubtful I'd be able to make the second approach either. I was really glad that I had gone ahead and topped off to 7 hours of fuel prior to that 2-hour flight despite there being 6 1/4 hours of fuel on board already.

You're a safe pilot for the point you're at in your flying career. Now it's time for you to get out of the nest, go out into the big bad world and find out what you don't know - And learn it. You've finished reading the travel guide, but you've only just started your journey. Enjoy it, and fly safe.

 

[Dr. O]

Well, Jaybird, I am sure you have gotten an eyeful here..
First, let me say welcome aboard and I hope you stay on...
Second if you stay around, in a few years you are going to be embarrassed when you reread your post... Will we let you live it down?
Nyaaaa... There is no mercy here.... But we will smile as we twist the knife because you are one of us...

I am glad you are determined to not be one of the statistics and I hope you manage to dodge the bullet every time you go up... Mind set is your best attribute to not do the usual dumb ass stunts like run out of gas, land downwind on a breezy day, bust into P51, etc...
Then there is the fickle finger of fate, like the engine throws a rod out the side of the crankcase... The only thing you can do is fly the airplane to the ground and hope you made the best choice of where and how you set it down... Training (you have had some) and experience (you are working on it) are the only things you have to fall back on when things go wrong...

So keep flying and remember, even though accident rates are higher in the first 100 hours, most accidents are caused by pilots with more than 100 hours... Get through your first 100 hours and then you can join us, the magnificent grizzled old pilots who are merely an accident looking for a place to happen...

denny-o
old pilot and going flying right now - see ya.... (that is if the ancient pile of aluminum rubble I call an airplane actually manages to actually get off the ground)

 

[mrcnwmn]

There are:

• Acrobatic Pilots
• Seaplane Pilots
• Homebuilders
• Warbird Enthusiasts
• Student Pilots
• CFI's
• CFII's
• Airline Pilots
• Regional Pilots

... and the list goes one.

Pilots (as anyone) like to hang out with people who have similar interests and experiences. Is this really about having few hours and being spurned (as a result of arrogance), or is this about not being part of a clique?

Yes, having 100 hours puts anyone into the group with low hours, and you are at the small table... sorry. We all sat there, and with time, we got invited to the big table, only to find out that once there, we weren't invited to all conversations there either.

I'm nearing 300 hours. I still feel like a beginner, and I've come to terms with the idea that this feeling will never pass.

Airline pilots I meet, even when they're being very nice to me, rarely give me the time of day. Though, I realize that it's not because they think I'm a low-time pilot and don't deserve their attention... it's because our experiences and interests are very different.

 

[murphey]

I think of myself as a good pilot, as I'm sure everyone here does. But I've done some really stupid, boneheaded things in airplanes, I have some bad habits, and I know that my bag of luck is not as full as it was when I started.

I've always said that I used to be young and stupid. I'm just no longer young.

 

[Dan Thomas]

In flight training we find it useful to run new students through as assessment to determine where they fall in the Five Hazardous Attitude matrix. All of us have all of these attitudes to some degree, with some more prominent than others, and the curious thing about the results a student will see on his assessment is that he'll say "That's bogus! That's not me! I'm not like that!" and his friends step back and say, "Yes, it is. That's what you're like." We don't know ourselves, basically, and so fall prey to some stupid stuff sometimes.

See the Attitudes: http://aviationknowledge.wikidot.com/sop:hazardous-attitudes

Dan

 

[Henning]

Pilots (as anyone) like to hang out with people who have similar interests and experiences. Is this really about having few hours and being spurned (as a result of arrogance), or is this about not being part of a clique?

Yes, having 100 hours puts anyone into the group with low hours, and you are at the small table... sorry. We all sat there, and with time, we got invited to the big table, only to find out that once there, we weren't invited to all conversations there either.

I'm nearing 300 hours. I still feel like a beginner, and I've come to terms with the idea that this feeling will never pass.

Airline pilots I meet, even when they're being very nice to me, rarely give me the time of day. Though, I realize that it's not because they think I'm a low-time pilot and don't deserve their attention... it's because our experiences and interests are very different.

Shoot, I'm closing on 3000 hrs and the only things I know for sure about aviation is "Never give up until you're dead", "If you're not really careful, this s--t will kill you." & "I f- up a lot". Everything else is up for debate.

 

[Everskyward]

I've always said that I used to be young and stupid. I'm just no longer young.

Me too.

 

[onwards]

Many of us older pilots have developed habits over the years that keep us out of trouble, we know what we can get away with, and what we can't. we seldom go any place we haven't been many times before in aircraft that we don't have a lot of time in.

That.

I am a new pilot - three weeks, and my logbook has a total of what, 76 hours in it? I'm 39 and did it for recreation, 1-2 times a week over 6 months. I don't have much time to fly, but I enjoy every moment I do.

Here is the thing in the post above: pretty much everywhere I go is a place I haven't been to one time, let alone many. Sure, my home airport, and the one in the practice area, I know pretty well. The one random strip 100m away where I ended my XC trips during training is next - been there 3 times. There are maybe a half dozen more where I have landed once. That's it.

So everything is new. But at the same time, because it is like that, I do believe I tend to spend a lot more time figuring out where I'm going, what challenges lie along the way, and what particular issues I might encounter over there, before I set foot outside my front door to go to the airport. Hopefully, that mitigates the lack of experience.

I have done something stupid pretty much every flight since passing my checkride (heck, I did something pretty gosh darn stupid DURING my checkride, but the examiner liked everything else well enough that he was satisfied with shouting at me for about 30 seconds when I did it). I write about them in forums because it helps me both get feedback but also the process of writing "firms up" the experience in my mind so that I don't forget it. And I do notice the improvements; I don't tend to make the same mistake twice. I just find new ones to make!

Flying is such a thrill, but also such a challenge. There are no safety guards, like they have on cars (airbags, lane change warnings, auto-distance-keeping-braking-sensors, and a gadzillion other doodahs). There is something amazingly special about aviation, for me, which is that it is still, somehow, an area where personal accountability well and truly matters - and in the most basic sense: It's up to me to stay alive. Period. That's what makes it so different than any other risky endeavor I can choose to undertake. I don't know if and how long it can stay that way. But dear god, if all it takes is for me to suffer some verbal abuse from arrogant a-holes just for my well-established lack of experience to keep it that way... bring it on. Bring it on.

 

[Everskyward]

That.

I am a new pilot - three weeks, and my logbook has a total of what, 76 hours in it? I'm 39 and did it for recreation, 1-2 times a week over 6 months. I don't have much time to fly, but I enjoy every moment I do.

Here is the thing in the post above: pretty much everywhere I go is a place I haven't been to one time, let alone many. Sure, my home airport, and the one in the practice area, I know pretty well. The one random strip 100m away where I ended my XC trips during training is next - been there 3 times. There are maybe a half dozen more where I have landed once. That's it.

So everything is new. But at the same time, because it is like that, I do believe I tend to spend a lot more time figuring out where I'm going, what challenges lie along the way, and what particular issues I might encounter over there, before I set foot outside my front door to go to the airport. Hopefully, that mitigates the lack of experience.

I can see the benefit of familiarity as far as safety goes but wouldn't that be boring, always going an airport you have been to before? When I was a new pilot I made it a point to go to new places. Isn't that what "Operation Fly" (formerly Go Fly America) is all about?

 

[onwards]

I can see the benefit of familiarity as far as safety goes but wouldn't that be boring, always going an airport you have been to before? When I was a new pilot I made it a point to go to new places. Isn't that what "Operation Fly" (formerly Go Fly America) is all about?

Exactly. At some point all these folks had to go to unfamiliar places, too. I am walking a well-trodden path. I just need to not veer off too much... and look at the upshot: at some point, I could be the one dishing out the verbal abuse to new pilots! woohoo!

 

[Henning]

That.

I am a new pilot - three weeks, and my logbook has a total of what, 76 hours in it? I'm 39 and did it for recreation, 1-2 times a week over 6 months. I don't have much time to fly, but I enjoy every moment I do.

Here is the thing in the post above: pretty much everywhere I go is a place I haven't been to one time, let alone many. Sure, my home airport, and the one in the practice area, I know pretty well. The one random strip 100m away where I ended my XC trips during training is next - been there 3 times. There are maybe a half dozen more where I have landed once. That's it.

So everything is new. But at the same time, because it is like that, I do believe I tend to spend a lot more time figuring out where I'm going, what challenges lie along the way, and what particular issues I might encounter over there, before I set foot outside my front door to go to the airport. Hopefully, that mitigates the lack of experience.

I have done something stupid pretty much every flight since passing my checkride (heck, I did something pretty gosh darn stupid DURING my checkride, but the examiner liked everything else well enough that he was satisfied with shouting at me for about 30 seconds when I did it). I write about them in forums because it helps me both get feedback but also the process of writing "firms up" the experience in my mind so that I don't forget it. And I do notice the improvements; I don't tend to make the same mistake twice. I just find new ones to make!

Flying is such a thrill, but also such a challenge. There are no safety guards, like they have on cars (airbags, lane change warnings, auto-distance-keeping-braking-sensors, and a gadzillion other doodahs). There is something amazingly special about aviation, for me, which is that it is still, somehow, an area where personal accountability well and truly matters - and in the most basic sense: It's up to me to stay alive. Period. That's what makes it so different than any other risky endeavor I can choose to undertake. I don't know if and how long it can stay that way. But dear god, if all it takes is for me to suffer some verbal abuse from arrogant a-holes just for my well-established lack of experience to keep it that way... bring it on. Bring it on.

It's good that you recognize and admit this. I know I am not a "safe pilot", I make mistakes all the time and I am vigilant about noticing them so I can correct for them. This is the way I come to manage my "accident chains" and try to break them before they get too long.

As for low time pilots and respect.... I'll tell ya what tweeks me most is when 100hr pilots start spreading BS OWTs to student pilots and say it with authority. They hear the OWT from their CFI who has barely any experience themself and they never really give any thought to the veracity much less research or experiment with it. It's just gospel and they spread it like a new Sunday School teacher to a fresh batch of 6 year olds and it's typically oversimplified or just plain incorrect.

A lot of the issue comes from the mindset, "I passed my ride, ergo I am safe" thinking, when it should be, "I passed my ride, ergo I assume all liability from here on out." These tend to be worst in the period between passing the PP and starting the IR and after passing the CP before you get that first utility job and you scare the crap out of yourself. After that the problem becomes complacency. You'll notice that every checkride has a flaw in it that the DE will get on you about, and they try to make you doubt yourself before they hand you your temp airman's certificate. They don't want you to "feel safe", they want you to evaluate everything you do for the little mistakes.

 

[geneseib]

I'm getting a bit ticked off by the arrogance of higher time pilots

If they are arrogant, that's their problem, not yours.

If you let their arrogance bother you, that's your problem, not theirs.

 

[onwards]

I know I am not a "safe pilot",

Is there such a thing, anyway? what would a "safe pilot" mean? someone who has a license but who doesn't fly? I never understood this term.

As for low time pilots and respect.... I'll tell ya what tweeks me most is when 100hr pilots start spreading BS OWTs to student pilots and say it with authority.

Sorry for being stupid, but what does OWT stand for, please? you must be making an excellent point and it frustrates me that I can't understand it.

A lot of the issue comes from the mindset, "I passed my ride, ergo I am safe" thinking, when it should be I passed my ride, ergo I assume all liability from here on out."

Hell yeah. That's precisely what my instructor told me several times: he wants me to pass the checkride so it's no longer his problem if I screw up. I took it to heart!

You'll notice that every checkride has a flaw in it that the DE will get on you about, and they try to make you doubt yourself before they hand you your temp airman's certificate. They don't want you to "feel safe", they want you to evaluate everything you do for the little mistakes.

Oh, interesting. I had no idea. I mean, I really did do something very stupid - and at the beginning of my checkride, no less - but it wasn't particularly dangerous, just bad form. I never thought that he might saw that as the perfect opportunity to yank my chain a bit. Cool.

 

[gprellwitz]

Sorry for being stupid, but what does OWT stand for, please? you must be making an excellent point and it frustrates me that I can't understand it.

Old Wive's Tale.

 

[Henning]

Is there such a thing, anyway? what would a "safe pilot" mean? someone who has a license but who doesn't fly? I never understood this term.



Sorry for being stupid, but what does OWT stand for, please? you must be making an excellent point and it frustrates me that I can't understand it.



Hell yeah. That's precisely what my instructor told me several times: he wants me to pass the checkride so it's no longer his problem if I screw up. I took it to heart!



Oh, interesting. I had no idea. I mean, I really did do something very stupid - and at the beginning of my checkride, no less - but it wasn't particularly dangerous, just bad form. I never thought that he might saw that as the perfect opportunity to yank my chain a bit. Cool.

OWT= Old Wives Tales. "Don't run the engine 'oversquare'" being a prime example.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Oh, interesting. I had no idea. I mean, I really did do something very stupid - and at the beginning of my checkride, no less - but it wasn't particularly dangerous, just bad form. I never thought that he might saw that as the perfect opportunity to yank my chain a bit. Cool.

Man, you've really got me curious now... What did you screw up to get the DPE on you, and still pass?

 

[Henning]

Man, you've really got me curious now... What did you screw up to get the DPE on you, and still pass?

It should be good. Likely a faux pax in "key ettiquette"??? It's not really speciffically covered in the PTS is it? Regardless, it's deadly important not to f- up.... Whatever, something... Can't fail you for it, but the entire rest of the ride is one of redemption, so it's to a higher standard.

 

[onwards]

Man, you've really got me curious now... What did you screw up to get the DPE on you, and still pass?

Well... we got up to the runway, I did the preflight check, then the tower tells me to "hold the line". Well, I never heard this instruction before, and I interpreted it to mean "hold short". So I just lined up to the hold short line and stopped.

A second later I hear the DPE saying "what are you doing?"

I respond "I... uh..."

He barks at me "do you know what this instruction means?"

I say "I never heard it before, but it sounded like hold short".

He starts yelling "If you don't know what something means, ASK! it means get on the runway and wait!"

Starting to shake, I lift my feet off the breaks mumbling apologies.

He yells more - at this point I'm not even hearing him, my brain is just trying to cope with the pressure. So he yells even louder. I look at him. As a result, instead of starting to turn at the runway center line, I basically cross all the way to the other side of the runway (onto the taxi) before starting to turn back.

He gets silent for a second, then "DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING?! WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!!!"

I swear to you, the fact that I was able to make a flawless series - literally, my best ever - of performance landings and takeoffs immediately following that is nothing short of dark magic. It was a feeling of grim determination; I'm still in the plane, he didn't tell me I failed, so I'll do the best I can and the hell with it. Somehow it worked. But the tension. Oh, the tension.

EDIT: oh, and now I remembered also - I screwed up a SECOND time on my checkride. I forgot to bring the navlogs with me for the cross country. He started shouting but then I hastily quoted every number for the first leg (including TH, MH, WCA, fuel consumption, the whole thing) from memory (luckily I have a good memory). He just sort of looked at me and rolled his eyes before asking me to divert anyway.

 

[ajstoner21]

Well... we got up to the runway, I did the preflight check, then the tower tells me to "hold the line". Well, I never heard this instruction before, and I interpreted it to mean "hold short". So I just lined up to the hold short line and stopped.

A second later I hear the DPE saying "what are you doing?"

I respond "I... uh..."

He barks at me "do you know what this instruction means?"

I say "I never heard it before, but it sounded like hold short".

He starts yelling "If you don't know what something means, ASK! it means get on the runway and wait!"

Starting to shake, I lift my feet off the breaks mumbling apologies.

He yells more - at this point I'm not even hearing him, my brain is just trying to cope with the pressure. So he yells even louder. I look at him. As a result, instead of starting to turn at the runway center line, I basically cross all the way to the other side of the runway (onto the taxi) before starting to turn back.

He gets silent for a second, then "DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING?! WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!!!"

I swear to you, the fact that I was able to make a flawless series - literally, my best ever - of performance landings and takeoffs immediately following that is nothing short of dark magic. It was a feeling of grim determination; I'm still in the plane, he didn't tell me I failed, so I'll do the best I can and the hell with it. Somehow it worked. But the tension. Oh, the tension.

EDIT: oh, and now I remembered also - I screwed up a SECOND time on my checkride. I forgot to bring the navlogs with me for the cross country. He started shouting but then I hastily quoted every number for the first leg (including TH, MH, WCA, fuel consumption, the whole thing) from memory (luckily I have a good memory). He just sort of looked at me and rolled his eyes before asking me to divert anyway.

You have more patience than I do. I would not tolerate a "yelling" or "shouting" DPE. In fact, I would cancel the ride, before he gets the chance.

 

[denverpilot]

You have more patience than I do. I would not tolerate a "yelling" or "shouting" DPE. In fact, I would cancel the ride, before he gets the chance.

"Ground, request immediate return to area Hotel." Absolutely.

And then I'd tell him in no uncertain terms to get the **** out of my airplane and I'd have a conversation with the FSDO after sleeping on it and telling him I was going to do just that.

Everybody has a boss and yelling at people taking check rides isn't in the DPE job description, last I checked.

 

[onwards]

"Ground, request immediate return to area Hotel." Absolutely.

And then I'd tell him in no uncertain terms to get the **** out of my airplane and I'd have a conversation with the FSDO after sleeping on it and telling him I was going to do just that.

Everybody has a boss and yelling at people taking check rides isn't in the DPE job description, last I checked.

I really should point you to some of the threads I posted in another forum about my experience on my checkride... several experienced pilots (and CFIs) said they had never heard anything like it (plenty of other odd and unusual things happened).

But who cares, really? it's done, it's behind me, I'm happy. Right? time to learn now.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Well... we got up to the runway, I did the preflight check, then the tower tells me to "hold the line". Well, I never heard this instruction before, and I interpreted it to mean "hold short". So I just lined up to the hold short line and stopped.

They said "Hold the line?" That's not standard phraseology... Or did they say "Line up and wait?"

I saw a student at MSN the other day who was told twice to "line up and wait" and so he stayed lined up and waiting on the taxiway at the hold short line... I'm starting to think that "Position and hold" really did make more sense.

 

[onwards]

They said "Hold the line?" That's not standard phraseology... Or did they say "Line up and wait?"

It was "hold the line and wait", actually. Sort of a hybrid of both. Doesn't really matter, because now I know!

 

[Ted]

It's good that you recognize and admit this. I know I am not a "safe pilot", I make mistakes all the time and I am vigilant about noticing them so I can correct for them. This is the way I come to manage my "accident chains" and try to break them before they get too long.

This is the sort of mentality that all pilots should have. A lot of people like to think of themselves as "safe" "good" "etc." As a 1500 hour pilot who flies virtually every day to all over the place, I know quite well that I make a lot of mistakes. The pilot who scares me is the one who claims to not make any. Like Henning, my goal is identify the mistakes so that I can hopefully not repeat them, and break the accident chain early. So far, it's worked. The people I'm most concerned with becoming NTSB reports are the ones who think they're really good. In many cases, they are actually good. But they also make stupid decisions and don't catch them.

 

[murphey]

You have more patience than I do. I would not tolerate a "yelling" or "shouting" DPE. In fact, I would cancel the ride, before he gets the chance.

+1000

This is not trying to simulate a stress situation, this is just harassment. The student is already stressed.

 

[Richard]

He barks at me "do you know what this instruction means?"



He starts yelling "If you don't know what something means, ASK! ...


He yells more - at this point I'm not even hearing him, my brain is just trying to cope with the pressure. So he yells even louder.

He gets silent for a second, then "DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING?! WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!!!"

But the tension. Oh, the tension.

He started shouting... He just sort of looked at me and rolled his eyes before asking me to divert anyway.

You're in CA. Was the DPE named Joe? If so, it seems the FSDO did not take action against him in the way I had hoped...back in 2001.

 

[onwards]

You're in CA. Was the DPE named Joe? If so, it seems the FSDO did not take action against him in the way I had hoped...back in 2001.

No, his name starts with R. I had conflicting views of him given me by various people before I met him (from "good guy" to "losing his mind to senility"). They all, however, seem to fear him somewhat.

 

[somorris]

The fascination with logged hours that we aviators seem to have can be a little ridiculous, because a lot of high time pilots spent a huge percentage of those hours droning along on long cross country flights repeating the same hour over and over. Kind of like someone said regarding "which airplane," when you make the ranks of pilot, you are already part of a pretty elite group. We should all respect each other.